PvP Truesilver's Top Tips, No.3 ++ Gimballed Duelling ++

[Morbad]

Winning twenty duels in a row among random CMDRs, even those with some modicum of PvP experience, is not a one-in-a-million thing. Such a figure relies on the assumption that each of your opponents has the same chance as you of winning. For anyone who has substantial PvP experience and skill, this is not the case.

Anyway, I think gimbals catch a lot of people off guard. So many have listened to and repeated the mantra that "skilled pilots have to use fixed" and have stopped expecting gimbaled weapons to be used by those who pose a real threat. The idea that such aids constitute a crutch is the same sort of folly as those who insist on using FA off only because of some perception that it's overall more effective than FA on. In actuality, everything is situational, and a crutch in the hands of someone who uses it not because they have a broken leg, but because it makes a fine club, is going to win against those who have artificially handicapped themselves by fighting bare knuckles .

Only my Vulture and, ironically enough, my current Corvette setup is the only PvP vessels I've ever had that didn't mount at least some gimbaled weapons. That said, with dispersal field being a possibility, I'd never want to be caught without at least one fixed weapon.

 

[Truesilver]

@Morbad, I was meaning to say about the build you kindly posted earlier ...

Two gimbaled overcharged medium MCs, one corrosive, one emissive. Two long range gimbaled medium cannon, one high-yield, one dispersal field. One large fixed focused burst laser with scramble spectrum.

... that is close to exactly what I had in mind when I said in the OP ...

So if you really want a perfect min/maxed gimballed set up, you might consider combining weapons of different types to get a good spread of specials, and carrying tons of synthesis.

... and although I might personally favour efficient on the multis, I could not agree more about long range on the gimballed cannons. As I said in another thread once, notwithstanding a number of wins with them, I have sworn never to use gimballed cannons again unless long range.

However, about the burst ... um ... whilst I recognise its DPE, of course ... do you not find the timing of the firing cycle on the huge fixed burst intensely irritating? Or is it just me??

 

[Morbad]

However, about the burst ... um ... whilst I recognise its DPE, of course ... do you not find the timing of the firing cycle on the huge fixed burst intensely irritating? Or is it just me??

I still use a large burst. Cycle time is extremely annoying on the huge version and most huge weapons are too heavy and/or too power hungry for the sort of FDL I like to fly...at least until I get that seemingly impossible dirty drive roll that has near max multiplier and a great optimal mass.

 

[V'larr]

I just have one thought:

How many of your opponents also had Scramble Spectrum?

Because on a glance it seems that the majority did not, so this thread may serve as cold hard evidence of that special effect being OP as hell.

 

[Truesilver]

I just have one thought:

How many of your opponents also had Scramble Spectrum?

Because on a glance it seems that the majority did not, so this thread may serve as cold hard evidence of that special effect being OP as hell.

At least two but it never gave me any problems.

Because the effect is randomised (afaik equally) between all modules, it's particularly weak against FdL's because of the very strong chance that the malfunction will only affect one of the 11 utilities or hard points.

Also my ship was set up to be able to fly through Powerplant malfunction without difficulty.

So really the only thing I had to worry about was a Drives malfunction which was a small chance and a relatively brief (though dangerous) event.

In fact, of my own weapons, the only one that made no sense at all was the Scramble Spectrum c2 pulse - really, on any objective basis, that should have been a corrosive multi-cannon ... but I kept it for the pulse disco thing.

Not that I don't like scramble spectrum but with the exception of a couple of the 'paper hull' FdL's and the Pythons (which would have been the same fights either way, as 99% or 100% of time with shields up) I think all of the fights would have been much quicker and easier if had used corrosive or high yield in its place. Indeed, I'd rather have dispersal. But all of those would have spoiled my disco ...

 

[Morbad]

Because on a glance it seems that the majority did not, so this thread may serve as cold hard evidence of that special effect being OP as hell.

As mentioned it affects one random module (seems to be influenced by the hemisphere of the ship struck) for a few seconds at a time, with an equally long cool down in between. The chance of it taking effect at all is based on damage done by a weapon (it happens more quickly with higher damage weapons) and doesn't seem to stack in any other way (once something is affected, nothing else can be during the cooldown).

I've won many engagements through scramble mailfunctions and never lost one to an opponent with it. It's annoying when thrusters, or a charging shield are affected, but there are other effects that are nearly always as potent.

Currently have the choice between a scramble burst turret and a drag frag turret on the large hardpoint of my Corvette setup (well, I have other weapons of course, but none as synergistic as these with the rest of my currently preferred loadout)...I take the frag turret more often.

Also my ship was set up to be able to fly through Powerplant malfunction without difficulty.

It's amazing the number of people that don't have competent power management priorities.

My ships will continue to charge shields through mailfunctions and even PP destruction (they are bi weaves set to priority 1 and all fall under 20%), and if it should settle at 50% output, everything still works except the guns (and I can sometimes fit low power weapons below 50% as well), fighter hangar, shield boosters, and life support (which are lightweight A rated on most of my ships so I can continue to fight for protracted periods without a canopy).

Generally, I go:

1 (20% output max) - shields, FSD, certain passive countermeasures (PDTs), distributor (if it fits).
2 (40% output max) - thrusters, smallest AFMU, sensors.
3 (50% output max) - other countermeasures, and anything important for survival/escape that didn't fit in 1 or 2. If I'm using high power consumption dirty drives, I often put them here so I can fit the AFMU in 2 so a PP mailfunction won't stop MRP/module repair. Having to drift for a few seconds is often less risky on my heavily armored, high module integrity, Corvette than losing the AFMU, and it takes less time to charge the FSD than to reboot and charge the FSD.
4 (100% max) - everything else that I'll use in combat.
5 (n/a) - whatever I cannot fire with hardpoints deployed...often only cargo rack on pure combat vessels, but things like interdictor, fuel scoops, and planetary vehicle hangars on more general purpose setups. Also, backup AFMU, if I have one.

 

[V'larr]

At least two but it never gave me any problems.
Because the effect is randomised (afaik equally) between all modules, it's particularly weak against FdL's because of the very strong chance that the malfunction will only affect one of the 11 utilities or hard points.

It can affect the main internals too though....

Also my ship was set up to be able to fly through Powerplant malfunction without difficulty.

I feel like that's something not everyone does. And, to me, the idea that I should have to set up in anticipation of a Powerplant malfunction at any given moment, even the start of combat with full shields up, is silly.

So really the only thing I had to worry about was a Drives malfunction which was a small chance and a relatively brief (though dangerous) event.

That's an issue too - in my experience it makes NPCs almost entirely helpless. It's quite noticable when they just suddenly quit shooting and seem as though they're tumbling in FA-off with no sense of direction. And it's happened with rather alarming frequency, for me.

In fact, of my own weapons, the only one that made no sense at all was the Scramble Spectrum c2 pulse - really, on any objective basis, that should have been a corrosive multi-cannon ... but I kept it for the pulse disco thing.
Not that I don't like scramble spectrum but with the exception of a couple of the 'paper hull' FdL's and the Pythons (which would have been the same fights either way, as 99% or 100% of time with shields up) I think all of the fights would have been much quicker and easier if had used corrosive or high yield in its place. Indeed, I'd rather have dispersal. But all of those would have spoiled my disco ...

Is it wrong that I'd rather *none* the effects you mention existed at all? [knocked out]

As mentioned it affects one random module (seems to be influenced by the hemisphere of the ship struck) for a few seconds at a time, with an equally long cool down in between. The chance of it taking effect at all is based on damage done by a weapon (it happens more quickly with higher damage weapons) and doesn't seem to stack in any other way (once something is affected, nothing else can be during the cooldown).

Yes - but on the other hand, the faster the rate of fire, the higher chance it procs...and a gimballed pulse shoots rapidly enough that you can count on it being almost always active.

I've won many engagements through scramble mailfunctions and never lost one to an opponent with it. It's annoying when thrusters, or a charging shield are affected, but there are other effects that are nearly always as potent.
Currently have the choice between a scramble burst turret and a drag frag turret on the large hardpoint of my Corvette setup (well, I have other weapons of course, but none as synergistic as these with the rest of my currently preferred loadout)...I take the frag turret more often.

Augh...see though? The "meta" here is all about what special effect gimmicks you can toss onto a loadout, the weapon choice themselves hardly matter anymore!

It's amazing the number of people that don't have competent power management priorities.
My ships will continue to charge shields through mailfunctions and even PP destruction (they are bi weaves set to priority 1 and all fall under 20%), and if it should settle at 50% output, everything still works except the guns (and I can sometimes fit low power weapons below 50% as well), fighter hangar, shield boosters, and life support (which are lightweight A rated on most of my ships so I can continue to fight for protracted periods without a canopy).
Generally, I go:
1 (20% output max) - shields, FSD, certain passive countermeasures (PDTs), distributor (if it fits).
2 (40% output max) - thrusters, smallest AFMU, sensors.
3 (50% output max) - other countermeasures, and anything important for survival/escape that didn't fit in 1 or 2. If I'm using high power consumption dirty drives, I often put them here so I can fit the AFMU in 2 so a PP mailfunction won't stop MRP/module repair. Having to drift for a few seconds is often less risky on my heavily armored, high module integrity, Corvette than losing the AFMU, and it takes less time to charge the FSD than to reboot and charge the FSD.
4 (100% max) - everything else that I'll use in combat.
5 (n/a) - whatever I cannot fire with hardpoints deployed...often only cargo rack on pure combat vessels, but things like interdictor, fuel scoops, and planetary vehicle hangars on more general purpose setups. Also, backup AFMU, if I have one.

See, if not for scramble spectrum, I'd say it'd be safe to assume shields are down if your powerplant is taking that much damage, so I'd rely on hull/MRP and chuck all the shield stuff & distributor on a lower priority and try to keep thrusters & weapons up instead, because at that point either your opponent is in the same boat as you or it's time to run away and leave.

But we have scramble spectrum, so...your approach makes better sense so long as that effect is around.

 

[StiTch]

However, about the burst ... um ... whilst I recognise its DPE, of course ... do you not find the timing of the firing cycle on the huge fixed burst intensely irritating? Or is it just me??

Pre-2.1 I used a shielded FDL with two gimballed MCs, two fixed burst lasers and the obligatory C4 PA.

Between the bursts and PA shields went down a treat, but even with the poor DpE of bursts back then, I found they were an excellent companion for the multis. With the opportunity to strike at subsystems the extended pause allowed for much more consistent hits with the fixed lasers - you can frequently micro-adjust your aiming in between the bursts.

Wouldn't have stood up in PvP back then, but it was my BHing monster, and there weren't really many builds comfortable with both extended NPC slaughter and handling SR rail-de-lances...

Half tempted to give it a go again, but following 2.1 I built it into a dedicated big 3 slayer. Triple PAs with the 3 different effects on...toasty.

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It can affect the main internals too though....

I think the point was that with so many weapons and utilities, it has a higher chance of causing one of them to malfunction instead of a major internal - which to most players is little more than a slight annoyance.

Scramble spectrum is "nice" to have...but by no means OP. Some effects in-game are just not reasonable, but scramble spectrum is probably about where it wants to be at.

At least, it doesn't need visiting like the distinct lack of offsets to corrosive MCs...

 

[Truesilver]

I feel like that's something not everyone does. And, to me, the idea that I should have to set up in anticipation of a Powerplant malfunction at any given moment, even the start of combat with full shields up, is silly.

(...)

See, if not for scramble spectrum, I'd say it'd be safe to assume shields are down if your powerplant is taking that much damage, so I'd rely on hull/MRP and chuck all the shield stuff & distributor on a lower priority and try to keep thrusters & weapons up instead, because at that point either your opponent is in the same boat as you or it's time to run away and leave.

Just wondering, from the words above, whether there could be a misunderstanding here?

@V'larr you do know that scramble spectrum only works on a target that is unshielded?

 

[Truesilver]

Winning twenty duels in a row among random CMDRs, even those with some modicum of PvP experience, is not a one-in-a-million thing. Such a figure relies on the assumption that each of your opponents has the same chance as you of winning. For anyone who has substantial PvP experience and skill, this is not the case.

This is all true of course, although some of the pilots I fought are in PvP player groups and will possibly compete in Season 3 of the League, one of them is actually an organiser of Season 3, one is a very long standing Beta duellist and a couple of others were very good - so I think those at least had more than a modicum of experience, lol

As mentioned it affects one random module (seems to be influenced by the hemisphere of the ship struck) for a few seconds at a time, with an equally long cool down in between.

Ah yes, I had forgotten this. In fact, looking back, almost every scramble spectrum malfunction I received was one of the 4 x c2 hard points, not utilities, which of course are mounted forwards on an FdL and entirely fits with the hemisphere theory because I was generally keeping my nose facing the enemy.

It's amazing the number of people that don't have competent power management priorities.

(<detailed info>)

A great power management post, practically worthy of its own thread, and doubtless will repay scrutiny. I am going to read it again. Power management is right up there with lateral thrusters in terms of generally being ignored or underused.

Since the (somewhat questionable) introduction of the c6 Powerplant on FdL, this has always presented an interesting dilemma, if shieldless. In Beta I tried both 6A and 5A and ultimately used 5A for less mass and still ample power, but with the 6A I could run practically the entire ship as normal right through malfunction.

Pre-2.1 I used a shielded FDL with two gimballed MCs, two fixed burst lasers and the obligatory C4 PA.

Between the bursts and PA shields went down a treat, but even with the poor DpE of bursts back then, I found they were an excellent companion for the multis. With the opportunity to strike at subsystems the extended pause allowed for much more consistent hits with the fixed lasers - you can frequently micro-adjust your aiming in between the bursts.

Yes, I too like the timing of the firing cycle on the c2 burst. It's the c4 that seems to have this fingers/blackboard quality.

 

[Morbad]

See, if not for scramble spectrum, I'd say it'd be safe to assume shields are down if your powerplant is taking that much damage, so I'd rely on hull/MRP and chuck all the shield stuff & distributor on a lower priority and try to keep thrusters & weapons up instead, because at that point either your opponent is in the same boat as you or it's time to run away and leave.

But we have scramble spectrum, so...your approach makes better sense so long as that effect is around.

As mentioned scramble only works on shieldless targets.

Anyway, I'm not usually in the same boat as others with this loadout. The Corvette I use is a hybrid resistance setup with 5.5k hull and abnormally strong modules. The shield takes less than a minute to regenerate from collapse and It's not uncommon for me to lose it three or four times in a fight I'm almost destined to win. Of course, when I'm significantly outnnumbered I usually withdraw if I'm expecting to lose my shields before reducing the number of foes to manageable levels or am being heavily focused by people that know what they are doing.

While it has significant risks, a nice side effect of flying a hybrid big ship is that people often think they are winning, right up until I destroy them, or make it impossible for them to flee, while my own vessel is almost completely intact.

Since the (somewhat questionable) introduction of the c6 Powerplant on FdL, this has always presented an interesting dilemma, if shieldless. In Beta I tried both 6A and 5A and ultimately used 5A for less mass and still ample power, but with the 6A I could run practically the entire ship as normal right through malfunction.

On a shielded FDL I'll usually take the C5 since I'm not going to be exposing the PP to much damage, but on a shieldless one, the C6 is really compelling for just that reason.

Yes, I too like the timing of the firing cycle on the c2 burst. It's the c4 that seems to have this fingers/blackboard quality.

I tried making the huge work, but without a good rapid fire roll (which has significant downsides itself), I'm always left feeling that I should just have taken a medium railgun.

 

[V'larr]

Just wondering, from the words above, whether there could be a misunderstanding here?
@V'larr you do know that scramble spectrum only works on a target that is unshielded?

Hmm...no, I hadn't known that, but now I'm going to see if I catch an NPC affected by it with shields up, because I could swear I've seen it happen. Not the first time special effects have been bugged, ya know?

While I'm at it I might see if phasing combined with scramble spectrum somehow blends together (against NPCs, as clearly you've tested it thoroughly against players!)

But for the time being, I'll *admit* that so long as it doesn't work through shielding, it's more balanced as an effect. Still annoying though!

Yes, I too like the timing of the firing cycle on the c2 burst. It's the c4 that seems to have this fingers/blackboard quality.

Burst lasers are nice, especially nowadays. It's interesting how the Huge class weapons all behave a bit differently than the predecessor classes...it's a bit odd that the fixed and gimballed variants of huge bursts vary so widely, but I think that C4 burst laser is going to work great on my Cutter - each hit counts for a lot more, which I reckon works well in a ship where the time-on-target and ability to fine-tune where the nose is pointing is relatively small.

Anyway, I'm not usually in the same boat as others with this loadout. The Corvette I use is a hybrid resistance setup with 5.5k hull and abnormally strong modules. The shield takes less than a minute to regenerate from collapse and It's not uncommon for me to lose it three or four times in a fight I'm almost destined to win. Of course, when I'm significantly outnnumbered I usually withdraw if I'm expecting to lose my shields before reducing the number of foes to manageable levels or am being heavily focused by people that know what they are doing.

That makes sense. It sounds dumb in retrospect but I wasn't thinking about the shield rebuilding during combat; I might've been thinking of my Cutter with prismatics where thinking of shield rebuilding during combat is a bit of a moot point....

I tried making the huge work, but without a good rapid fire roll (which has significant downsides itself), I'm always left feeling that I should just have taken a medium railgun.

An interesting point about the huge fixed burst...but heat, distributor draw, no "charge-up" time, and (though less important for a 1v1 these days) no ammo limitation all stand in the huge burst's favor, I think? Also, it looks like Overcharged would work out better than rapid fire, as far as blueprints go. (And I can't put scramble spectrum on a railgun! )

 

[Sylow]

1 (20% output max) - shields, FSD, certain passive countermeasures (PDTs), distributor (if it fits).
2 (40% output max) - thrusters, smallest AFMU, sensors.
3 (50% output max) - other countermeasures, and anything important for survival/escape that didn't fit in 1 or 2. If I'm using high power consumption dirty drives, I often put them here so I can fit the AFMU in 2 so a PP mailfunction won't stop MRP/module repair. Having to drift for a few seconds is often less risky on my heavily armored, high module integrity, Corvette than losing the AFMU, and it takes less time to charge the FSD than to reboot and charge the FSD.
4 (100% max) - everything else that I'll use in combat.
5 (n/a) - whatever I cannot fire with hardpoints deployed...often only cargo rack on pure combat vessels, but things like interdictor, fuel scoops, and planetary vehicle hangars on more general purpose setups. Also, backup AFMU, if I have one.

.
Might be just me, but i don't really get the #1 priority for you. What good is the FDS when you don't have thrusters? I mean, when i disable my thrusters i can't activate my FDS, neither for supercruise nor for a jump. So what good is it to have the FDS up when thrusters are disabled?
.
The other thing: is my info outdated, that a destroyed powerplant delivers 50% while a malfunctioning powerplant delivers 40% power? My setup is based on this information, so my cathegory 1 is built for 40%, to keep the essentials running in worst case. Am i missing something?
.

 

[Morbad]

An interesting point about the huge fixed burst...but heat, distributor draw, no "charge-up" time, and (though less important for a 1v1 these days) no ammo limitation all stand in the huge burst's favor, I think? Also, it looks like Overcharged would work out better than rapid fire, as far as blueprints go. (And I can't put scramble spectrum on a railgun! )

The cycle time on a huge burst is nearly as long as the charge and fire time on a medium rail, and the burst has to be held on target longer. The rail does have higher thermal load, but the railgun has better damage and about the same distributor draw. Power consumption is not hugely different. Mass and penetration are in the rail's favor.

No, you can't put scramble on a railgun, but a railgun has enough penetration depth and enough module damage to often be more effective in this regard...if one's aim is up to task.

Might be just me, but i don't really get the #1 priority for you. What good is the FDS when you don't have thrusters? I mean, when i disable my thrusters i can't activate my FDS, neither for supercruise nor for a jump. So what good is it to have the FDS up when thrusters are disabled?

The FSD doesn't reboot if the thrusters fail and thrusters have no reboot time. A power plant malfunction that cuts power to thrusters will stop an FSD charge in progress, but you can start charging again immediately after the malfunction ceases. If the FSD lost power I'd need 7.3 seconds on top of that 5 second malfunction before I could start charging again.

Obviously, I'd like to have the thrusters below 40%, but without an overcharged PP and with dirty drives, the sacrifices required to make this possible are not always worthwhile.

The other thing: is my info outdated, that a destroyed powerplant delivers 50% while a malfunctioning powerplant delivers 40% power? My setup is based on this information, so my cathegory 1 is built for 40%, to keep the essentials running in worst case. Am i missing something?
.

When the PP firsts hits 0% integrity, output drops to 20% until it stabilizes at 50% five seconds later. So, it's very prudent for me to keep my shield generator below that level.

 

[StiTch]

Yes, I too like the timing of the firing cycle on the c2 burst. It's the c4 that seems to have this fingers/blackboard quality.

Well they set a precedent with huge MCs by giving them a different firing method...if it weren't for the ease in abusing it through macros, I'd have been interested to see the C4 burst as a semi-auto affair with damage increase.

 

[Sylow]

When the PP firsts hits 0% integrity, output drops to 20% until it stabilizes at 50% five seconds later. So, it's very prudent for me to keep my shield generator below that level.

.
Ah. That's the piece i was missing. Thanks for the info, i didn't know that. (And never had my powerplant destroyed yet. I just can't get myself to fly big ships, which would survive long enough when shields are down for module destruction to matter. )
.

 

[Nerwan]

When the PP firsts hits 0% integrity, output drops to 20% until it stabilizes at 50% five seconds later. So, it's very prudent for me to keep my shield generator below that level.

Hmm, this is interesting. In the old days, I never bothered trying to keep my shield generator in the zone where it could run on a dead power plant but in these days of reboot/repair and/or very fast recharging bi-weaves it makes a lot of sense. I guess it's only really viable with hybrids because bi-weaves have sufficiently low power requirements that you can easily get them in the zone.

 

[Pyrotiger]

Now, welcome to my pulse disco ... with music by The K.L.F. !

Rep for that.

 

[Mystweaver]

Think I fought you or someone with a similar/identical loadout about at week ago in my Python with Torps & Gimballed Multi's. Though my torps missed, my 3 large multi's managed to get down you/whoever to ~21% but my hull was in an almost identicle (worse) state due to phasing punching through my shields (SCB's kept my shield strength up for the majority of the battle). I conceded cos I ran out of ammo (and synthesis mats) - well not quite but as the fight had lasted in excess of 20 mins and I knew I didn't have enough ammo to finish off my target with 4 chaff!

Was a cracking fight, longest one I've ever had.

Great post, thanks for putting in all the effort. I'll be sure to read your previous posts.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Great .. I appear for 10 seconds on the video and get the in the thumbnail hahaha , gotta say that this DBS had an utter bad loadout

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Some really useful info here Truesilver, and thanks for answering my questions as a complete PvP amateur.

I'd rep you some more, but unfortunately cannot for the moment.

Like you would ever get out of PG and Solo...