It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

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I dont care. If they give it the best AI they can and tough outfitting/flight models/etc, I'm up for it. Because to me, depth comes from the flight model, AI, loadout considerations etc. That is infinitely more important than getting more fake money with MC.

Why are you here then? I don't recall the OP complaining about the (normal) flight model and basic gunplay. Probably the most fulfilling mechanic Elite has to offer. "I don't care, because I only focus on the oh-so-narrow aspect of the game that's well designed" does not explain the game's shortcomings. And it does not constitute a defense for them.

Guess what? I, too, positively love the game's flight model. That doesn't make the base exploration mechanic of watch-a-space-doughnut-turning good.
 
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The only truth here is that you've been doing nothing but salty doomsaying on the forums here for weeks now with no end in sight. When are you just going to go play Mass Effect: Andromeda? Or Eve online? Or is it that you're one of the Star Citizen hopefuls?

Time is definitely always working against them, that much is true. The rest of what you say is purely your own personal opinion, and it's not one I share at all.

Not my first rodeo.

I used to get accused of "doomsaying" and "fear mongering" on the Firefall forums. Every time I'd speak out against shallow vertical progression grinds and leveled gear and terrible "kill X" missions.

Games dead now. Turns out, the shallow grind and endless revamps of the vertical progression no one wanted, killed it.

Been here before. A time or two. I know a game in dire straits when I see one by now. And Elite, while it's no Firefall yet, is headed that way.
 
minimum viable product necessary to maximise the profitability

This guy nails it. Fixing problems that become apparent 10 hours into the game doesn't earn you more money. Releasing new content that only looks good in a trailer and bringing the game to new platforms, now that makes money.

The entire situation for this genre is decidedly awful. Elite is on one end of the spectrum, being in a constant state of minimum viable product and churning out half-baked features. Star Citizen is on the other end, so doggedly focused on quality that it is in perpetual development for a completely different reason. And everything else is in very early development.
 
Why are you here then? I don't recall the OP complaining about the (normal) flight model and basic gunplay. Probably the most fulfilling mechanic Elite has to offer. "I don't care, because I only focus on the oh-so-narrow aspect of the game that's well designed" does not explain the game's shortcomings. And it does not constitute a defense for them.

Guess what? I, too, positively love the game's flight model. That doesn't make the base exploration mechanic of watch-a-space-doughnut-turning good.

It seems you are kinda going out of your way to disagree with me? The OP didnt mention Thargoids at all. Someone said he was looking forward to it, you dismissed it. I point out that, to me, Thargoids would be a great addition if it adds dangerous and difficult PvE combat. It wont fix 'exploration mechanics', but exploration mechanics wont fix PvE combat either. Thargoids offer a chance for a new difficulty level in certain areas, so the farmers wont be upset. Its one fix for one issue. I am looking forward to Thargoids and more exploration content.

I hope that is a satisfactory answer and you grant me permission to stay. :p
 
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That is not what he said, and this is exactly why devs tend to not say anything anymore. He said the basic mechanisms are solid, which they are. Dont expect anything to change as to how you go to a system, how you move into a system, how you discover a planet and how you land on said planet. Those 'core mechanics' as he called them will almost certainly remain as they are. That has nothing to do with adding stuff.

Moving to a system and landing on planets are not 'core mechanics' of exploration. They're core mechanics of the entire game. How you discover a planet is indeed part of the core mechanics of exploration and involves keeping a key pressed for several seconds. I don't call that solid, I call that lazy. I had more fun exploring before I had the advanced discovery scanner and I had to use my eyes to spot planets moving in paralax to the background. That actually took skill and felt rewarding. No matter how you look at it, exploration is not in a solid place. There's nothing of consequence to find and the means to find things rely on RNG, grinding and lazy honking.
 
Moving to a system and landing on planets are not 'core mechanics' of exploration. They're core mechanics of the entire game. How you discover a planet is indeed part of the core mechanics of exploration and involves keeping a key pressed for several seconds. I don't call that solid, I call that lazy. I had more fun exploring before I had the advanced discovery scanner and I had to use my eyes to spot planets moving in paralax to the background. That actually took skill and felt rewarding. No matter how you look at it, exploration is not in a solid place. There's nothing of consequence to find and the means to find things rely on RNG, grinding and lazy honking.

Completely agree. No Man's Sky is the far better game for pure Exploration right now. Pity it's lack of a flight model and HOTAS support.

Elite needs Exploration Tools. Interactive tools for locating planets, and things on planets.

The DSS should discover all persistent POI on a planet. As we approach, it should pin down locations within, say, a 5km radius.

In Orbital Cruise, the DSS should be able to analyze composition of the surface and likely minerals and mats found on a planet.

We should be able to take core samples from planets. Gas samples from Giants. Analyze wind and weather patterns on Atmosphere worlds. Deploy Satellites that gather data and pay out over time, as well as create new destination beacons dynamically.

Flying over a planet in normal space should allow us to use the scanner and locate mats WITHOUT FORCING THE SRV. By the time we launch an SRV we should know where we are going, and whether the trip is one we need to make.

Exploration isn't solid right now. It's not even PRESENT. Instead, the placeholder is "press and hold button, wait." That's not a mechanic.
 
I love this game but the main problem with it (which I agree with most points discussed in this thread) is that they designed it like being a "Free to Play" game and that while being a full paid one with an expansion later on. They are using a Free To Play model with endless grinding to get mundane stuff (the regular things in the game, ships, modules, etc) and then micro-transactions for things that after all that grind would make more sense to have them in the game as a prize for your hard work. But all that hard work is for the same stuff over and over again, with overpriced components that costs more of the ship alone...which to me up until this day makes no sense at all.
"Play 200 hours to buy a Cutter, now to make it better play double the time to upgrade it"...Does that make any sense to anyone of you? Yet up to this point we are used to it, to the grinding and the way you achieve your own personal goals, "mundane" goals, such as having a certain ship and make it better. There is nothing more then aside from that.

But I understand that this game is constantly evolving and moving forward, for the better or for the worst in some cases, and I understand why they need to put micro-transactions...but don't like the way they are doing it. You paid for an expansion to get content but you get features instead as actual "content"..."digital goods" in games are the things that we are used to pay in every game we play, you pay for an expansion and you know that you are going to get a story and new gadget (like The Witcher, a full story with new weapons and armor sets, you get also more level and get stronger with better stuff...all in the same package).

What we end getting with every patch is a "new method" for grind (or a new reason to do more grinding), either they raise the benefits in credits in one patch, they lower it in the other, or they reduce rank progression (like in this patch) that gives you nothing more than slightly "better grinding" (high pay and that's it, non actual rewards...for that you have the other type of grinding called "Powerplay") or access to certain systems that have nothing special aside from the lore value behind them.

At this point I have the ships I want, I have enough money to do some other things, we all can do other stuff without the need of grinding or repetition, but the game aside from giving us ships and parts it lacks a lot of tools to do more things with the environment and to interact with it. Which is the main thing that brings the fun into open sandbox games, TOOLS to do other things aside from thinking into earn this or that...I just want to do, to play with what I want...give me something to play with. A kid without a toy can play with sand with his sands and make mountains (or a mess), you give them a shovel and a bucket and they can build little castles in the sand...
We probably have the shovel but we also need a bucket...and that is where the game is failing to deliver something more.

This is totally personal as I play Solo 99% of the time aside with a couple of friends in Groups, but if this game was single-player alone the main structure of it is not that bad, it lacks the tools to do more things aside of what the game "forces" you to do for then get this or that.
Repetition is the main problem if you are forced by your own desire of getting something one way or the other. Every task in the game is extremely simple, trading is as simple as going to a base, buy stuff, fly to the other system, get into base and sell, repeat on and on. That is trading (which I'm doing now to get Elite in 3 more days hopefully). It is the same in real life tho, as I worked as a courier in real life...go figure I play a game in where I basically do the same as in real life...crazy I know, haha!

The game lacks more tools as I said or means to do the same kind of tasks, I said multiple times that for mining it can be done on planets and I repeat on and on how planets are not being used properly, how different types of SRV's can add different and more variations in gameplay. (mining in planets, racing, cargo runs, cooperation between players one mining and the other loading a ship with 2 SRV's and working together...) Adding more types of SRV's is something that I like to see in this expansion (for 2.4), more type of gadgets to do different tasks with them is also something that I want to see.

For explorers it could be amazing to launch probes into a planet (like those in Mass Effect 2 so then you could check if there were resources there), without the need to go there by your own at all (like we send probes to Mars or the Moon), then after a while check your panels for the info received and sell it for millions. Maybe one day you could see settlements there exploiting that planet that you found. That can be done and it will feel good for that person, a sense of actually interacting with the world and affecting it as well.

Traders trading with those minerals, instead of going to a base to click a menu to load your ship..., you can land in a mining site, and see how actual players load your ship with minerals in real time (rise values for those minerals or make new ones for an added value since it will take time but it will be highly profitable). Perhaps they could sell those minerals to you and then you can sell them to others or in stations as we usually do. (I miss those Luxury Traders so much!!! Bring them back!!)
Imagine those big SRV's with 50 or so tonnes of cargo going in and out loading your ship in real time...oh man!! Multiple players cooperating in real time!! I'll play in Open just for that!!!

See Frontier...where you are failing to deliver?

Yes!
 
I share his opinion but couldnt rep him for it...your opinion is one some of us already do yet still find the time to follow the forum. I dont see that as detriment, unless one is just here to mine salt. I see that as an indication of how much some of us want this game to improve because its currently too boring or we just burned out.

If ye dont like listening to someene, then just mute them...its not rocket science after all and with so few genuinely constructive threads, your comment I simply see as unnecessary drivel ^

It's a detriment when it's not constructive in the slightest. Getting nippy at Fdev over every possible subject brought up on the forums isn't going to improve the game. (It's rather funny to me you use the words "unecessary drivel"....)

There's many things I would like to see differently about the game. You can check my posting history. Do you see me jumping at every possible opportunity to spread salt and deride someone for it?

I've even made several suggestion threads, some of which have yet to get a single reply. And yet I don't go around taking it out on everyone else lambasting the people who have to somehow make what I want to happen, happen.

There's times I even get pretty harshly critical of things like Engineers, or the player group situation - and yet I manage to get my points across without insults or trying to make anyone feel like crap.

It's common decency, and I think it's well worth trying to spread the importance of it rather than defaulting to the least effective option of "Mute Button", especially when I have seen BlackCompany when he's *not* being actively salty. (Believe me, when I can tell another player just will not or can not be reasoned with and is just generally being a tool, I do not hesitate to make it known when I mute them.)

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Completely agree. No Man's Sky is the far better game for pure Exploration right now. Pity it's lack of a flight model and HOTAS support.
and that it's all still in technicolor neon

But:
Elite needs Exploration Tools. Interactive tools for locating planets, and things on planets.

The DSS should discover all persistent POI on a planet. As we approach, it should pin down locations within, say, a 5km radius.

In Orbital Cruise, the DSS should be able to analyze composition of the surface and likely minerals and mats found on a planet.

We should be able to take core samples from planets. Gas samples from Giants. Analyze wind and weather patterns on Atmosphere worlds. Deploy Satellites that gather data and pay out over time, as well as create new destination beacons dynamically.

Flying over a planet in normal space should allow us to use the scanner and locate mats WITHOUT FORCING THE SRV. By the time we launch an SRV we should know where we are going, and whether the trip is one we need to make.

Exploration isn't solid right now. It's not even PRESENT. Instead, the placeholder is "press and hold button, wait." That's not a mechanic.

All of this, I'm on board with. This is the kind of constructive thought I'm talking about! Is all this stuff in a suggestion thread somewhere already?
 
It's a detriment when it's not constructive in the slightest. Getting nippy at Fdev over every possible subject brought up on the forums isn't going to improve the game. (It's rather funny to me you use the words "unecessary drivel"....)

There's many things I would like to see differently about the game. You can check my posting history. Do you see me jumping at every possible opportunity to spread salt and deride someone for it?

I've even made several suggestion threads, some of which have yet to get a single reply. And yet I don't go around taking it out on everyone else lambasting the people who have to somehow make what I want to happen, happen.

There's times I even get pretty harshly critical of things like Engineers, or the player group situation - and yet I manage to get my points across without insults or trying to make anyone feel like crap.

It's common decency, and I think it's well worth trying to spread the importance of it rather than defaulting to the least effective option of "Mute Button", especially when I have seen BlackCompany when he's *not* being actively salty. (Believe me, when I can tell another player just will not or can not be reasoned with and is just generally being a tool, I do not hesitate to make it known when I mute them.)

Admittedly, if one thing gets me outright salty in gaming these days, it's RNG grind.

As a former CCG addict, I'm careful what I play. So of course I pick a sim. And of course it introduces gambling.

And make no mistake: RNGineers ARE gambling. They are built to tap that same addiction prone brain, in the same way. It infuriates me when devs do this. It's lazy at the best of times and I have seen other games - namely, every CCG ever made - where it eventually reaches abusive levels of rarity and grind.

My other pet peeves with the industry right now: Minimum Viable Effort/Product, and Lack of Innovation.

Which obviously means Elite is, at present, a game I WANT to love - and do, for the flying, as sadly scarce as it is outside of combat. But it's also a game that represents ALL THREE of the things I hate most about this industry. Which is why I often hope - vehemently - that it will change.
 
You know what i'd pay for even though it would probably cause a huge uproar.

I would pay for FD to stop releasing new content for 1 year/season and instead work on the current mechanics and get them working to a passable degree.

Make the BGS actually mean something and tie into the rest of the game, the economics, the trading, the combat, crime and piracy, missions, bounties. Work on multiplayer, the net code, wings. Exploration has remained largely untouched since launch - give it some love, some proper tools, a reason to land on planets. There is a tonne of stuff that needs attention way too much to list in fact but for me it all comes back to the BGS and how all these activities tie in together.

They'd probably have to tear down the current BGS and start again but I think it would be worth it in the long term.

I think everyone on these forums regardless of standpoint or opinion are here because we like or love the game, it's premise and it's potential (I played the original in '84 so I've loved this series for long time).

Honestly, I would pay a full DLC season price to get some of the existing stuff fixed and improved (I'm probably in the minority here) but in it's current state I can only see myself dropping in from time to time just to explore, I say explore but a one button exploration mechanic with a point at the nearest space ball as the 'detailed' version is hardly what I'd call exploration.
 
Yes, this has been mentioned before. And seems a reasonable idea to me. That it would cause a huge uproar is something of an understaement. And logically it aint going to happen because new features equals product sales...
 
Yes, this has been mentioned before. And seems a reasonable idea to me. That it would cause a huge uproar is something of an understaement. And logically it aint going to happen because new features equals product sales...

In the short term, sure.

But once a dev gets a rep for releasing oversold, under developed games, that's a hard thing to shake.

Goose, or golden eggs? Right now, FDev is killing the one to get the other for sure. Trouble is, longer term, this won't just affect Elite.

I hear the one flaw with Coaster, which I won't buy, is that it lacks content. Color me surprised. Sooner or later FDev will get that rap and once they do, all future sales will suffer for it.
 
Yes, this has been mentioned before. And seems a reasonable idea to me. That it would cause a huge uproar is something of an understaement. And logically it aint going to happen because new features equals product sales...

I've recommended the game to some 4 to 5 friends who went on to buy it. You could've said I was in the "honeymoon phase", where everything you do and learn in ED is new and exciting. That phase doesn't last forever though. In its current state, without a thorough re-evaluation and satisfying rework of the basic underlying game design, I would not recommend the game to anybody. I can cautiously point people to Elite as a unique space gaming experience, but I sure as hell won't recommend it anymore. Having loading screen upon loading screen shoved down your throat to tie together the shallow base game mechanics is not a sensible proposition for anybody's free time. It doesn't help that the cooperative PvE experience for which we played ED has been an absolute letdown. You only spend so many evenings wasting 20 minuts on loading screens to meet up for some arcade spaceship brawl if your time is limited. If it must be games, there are others that respect player time a lot better.

And by "respect", I mean offer game design choices that don't make you scratch your head and wonder whatever the hell was going on at the studio. Where are those micro jumps? Why do we watch twice as many loading screens to meet up in a CZ with our early to mid game combat ships as anybody in an ASP would just so we can meet up and have fun? Why did I just kill time for half an hour while the ship I need for that promotion mission transferred to my ingame location? Why is all the depth exploration offers slapping two kinds of scanners on the longest jump range ship possible and then go out into the void and watch space doughnuts of scanning, while watching Netflix or taking screenshots of Asps in front of things?
 
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I really think they have continued in the wrong direction still today. No patches or fixes. No response from FDev. Half hearted responses from QA on the bugs forums, with reports of bugs still pouring in...and we are officially a week past the live release.
 
Yes, this has been mentioned before. And seems a reasonable idea to me. That it would cause a huge uproar is something of an understaement. And logically it aint going to happen because new features equals product sales...

I know it's highly unlikely to happen, I was just putting my idea out there.

FD won't get any more money from me with new season DLCs but they would get money from me if they actually fixed the core mechanics of the game.....it's a commercial argument as they of course need to turn a profit to continue developing the game I thought a commercial approach might hold more sway than just saying "I want, I want" which is unrealistic given the commercial model of FD and games companies in general.
 
Did you expect it to? :S

No. But when you've grown sufficiently accustomed to a game to see the strings, you're able to do a far more sober-headed validation of what it is. And I'm seeing a game design that barely holds the game together and lets down the fantastic work of the visual and sound people (edit: as well as the fantastically enthralling normal flight ship behaviour) at Frontier while putting emphasis on watching loading screens, waiting for bloody inventory management hourclocks, rolling dice for as long as it takes to get something that is worth your while and discouraging PvE coop play by either gimping payouts or omitting support entirely.

I'm seeing that something is wrong. And it doesn't do to explain away the shortcomings (but it's immersive, but it's realistic, but it would lead to griefing, but I'm happy with all of it). We're not talking about balancing intricacies, but rather talking about the fundametal decisions Frontier takes with their game design. Those aren't fixable by a player beta. Not when every new addition to the game has been riddled with outright baffling choices. And the issue is definitely not that Frontier aren't working hard enough, as proven by the sheer amount of things they managed to add in two years. It's what decisions they made, make and will make while developing the 2014 vanilla game, all additions since and whatever is to come.
 
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OK. But this also means we can lower our expectations - they basically can stop developing the game right now without having to deliver more stuff, right?

I don't know how high or low your expectations are. And really, hyperbole? Of course not. We all want more. What i'm saying is people hold up the DDF like some sort of holy grail. Its not. Its got some nice ideas in it, some of which are still to come, but times change, and some of the ideas in the DDF are not going to make it in probably, at least in the form they were initially devised.

So, maybe you need to lower your expectations. My expectations are doing ok. I'm still scratching my head over things like snoozeplay, but overall, every single patch has added something that i can enjoy. That's all i really need.
 
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