It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

[NMS]

For clarities sake, I mean what depth do you see that others might find? If that makes sense.

This explanation I would like to see also.

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is because you don't like it, not because it isn't deep. Powerplay offers all kinds of complex gameplay and you can interact with it in many different ways. You can also shape the galaxy. It just isn't fun...

You misunderstand.

Depth=what I like
What I dont like = not depth

A very simple definition that works wonders on this forum. For example, many explorers (me included) want some kind of heatmap-scanner for resources on planets. It isnt 'deep' or 'complex' in any way, it wont add any actual 'challenge' either. But it would be fun. But saying it is fun sounds a bit... weak, so we call it 'depth'.

 

[Kellan Fell]

Community goals. I haven't kept a close eye but it's felt like at least once month lately there's been some kind of Empire-Federation conflict going on.

And then there's the myriad of minor faction wars for control over various systems throughout the bubble.

Two CG's in the same system doesn't really seem to cut the mustard does it? In all the novels the tension between the Feds and the Imps is palpable, and in many border systems seems to almost explode into full blown war on a regular basis.
Where is this?
There is no real tension, no real issues. If you do one of these "confilct" CG's then it's quite possible to do both sides and earn the benefits from both. If you're flying in cargo for the Imperial one, then shouldn't Fed security forces be interdicting you and either trying to drive you off of cripple your ship? There's just no sense of the conflict.

And yet some would say it's a great thing that we are allowed to take these things into our own hands and let our own heads be free to create and imagine in the universe provided, rather than spoon-fed to us in the catered manner found so often in so many games these days with all their infamous Quick-Time-Event button mashing. (Skyrim itself would likely never been as popular if it weren't for player modding and tools that allowed greater creative freedom, especially mods like Live A New Life.)

Even so I fully expect a future season for Elite to be pretty much nothing but lore injection and fluff, since most of it does admittedly exist outside of the game right now.

Here again, I don't object to role-playing our own back story to the game, but there should be more there as well. Galnet used to be a rich source of information to help out with this kind of thing. Content was both player written and came from FDev, but now it seems to be sadly forgotten.
Where are the struggles between the Power Play factions? The propaganda denouncing Halsey throughout Imperial space? Doccing in a Fed station feels no different to an Imperial station, and the Alliance seem to have no advantages whatsoever...

I share your hope that a future season will address some of this, but I am slowly losing faith as I watch release after release lurch from one badly implemented idea to another...

 

[Soopyyy]

This is because you don't like it, not because it isn't deep. Powerplay offers all kinds of complex gameplay and you can interact with it in many different ways. You can also shape the galaxy. It just isn't fun...

See, I don't agree with that. We can sometimes shift an arbitrary colour map but we can't change anything actually tangible. Not a single power has collapsed, as was advertised originally. We can't change the political landscape in any meaningful way, it's simply a ruse, which is why the user base collapsed as it did.

 

[babelfisch]

This explanation I would like to see also.

Just read the last page and engage your brain. Read it again and again and again. You'll get there.

 

[Soopyyy]

You misunderstand.

Depth=what I like
What I dont like = not depth

A very simple definition that works wonders on this forum. For example, many explorers (me included) want some kind of heatmap-scanner for resources on planets. It isnt 'deep' or 'complex' in any way, it wont add any actual 'challenge' either. But it would be fun. But saying it is fun sounds a bit... weak, so we call it 'depth'.

That's simply disingenuous in the extreme.

 

[babelfisch]

See, I don't agree with that. We can sometimes shift an arbitrary colour map but we can't change anything actually tangible. Not a single power has collapsed, as was advertised originally. We can't change the political landscape in any meaningful way, it's simply a ruse, which is why the user base collapsed as it did.

This is true, and it's one of the many reasons I don't like Powerplay. But it doesn't mean there is no depth to it.

 

[Jex =TE=]

]Each and every system is visible from the galaxy map. Why don't systems have to be, you know, discovered? By means of sensors on exploraiton ships,

Oh do you mean like they wrote in the orignal design of the game, the DDF? You know, the thing they used to fool us all into thinking they'd make one game but then made the one we have? Do you mean discovering planets that were in that document? Where we'd need to find them? Do you mean something along these lines?...............

Hello all!
I've given Explorers a quick run through to add in some extra detail and clarifications, we're happy this one is going so well and please continue discussion!

In Elite: Dangerous explorers are players who travel out into undiscovered areas of the galaxy, hoping to find previously undiscovered systems and locations. Explorers scan and record data wherever they go, and can sell that data on to various interested authorities. Explorers can also sell on data they have discovered to other players, allowing them to sell the co-ordinates of a valuable find to the highest bidder, or keep their discoveries to exploit for themselves.

Explorer players must discover different points of interest using different methods

Explorer players’ main method of making money is through selling details of points of interest they discover
Points of interest players can discover include:
Star Systems
Dark Systems (systems without a star, but other features)
Stars
Planets
Asteroids, comets
Moons
Structures
Other Phenomena
These Discovered locations may include:
Secret Locations
Resources
Events/Missions (time limited and permenant)
Beauty spots (usually attached to other entities)
Messages/Beacons
Players explore to build up the details on their galaxy map
When starting a new commander the player will have some details on their galaxy map
This will allow the player to travel to any locations they have map data to, without having to explore
Players can buy map data from authorities to expand their ships computers library of maps
New map data will allow the player to travel to new locations without needing to explore
Map data that is bought from authorities is not to the highest level of detail and can be improved with player gathered data
Map data includes hyperspace routes to systems and major points of interest in that system

Players can use scanning equipment and probes to detect systems and record new hyperspace routes
Scanners are used to detect any nearby systems that are within the players jump range
Scanners will give the player a vague indication of the direction of a system
High end scanners can give the player a better details of the system they have detected (is it a star, an asteroid field etc.)
Players can then launch hyperspace probes that will give the player more information on the part of space they are looking at
Probes will give the player heat-map style data to help guide the player to the correct co-ordinates for a jump
Heatmap data might be ambiguous, creating skill based gameplay where the player learns to interpret the readings they recieve
Different equipment can determine the quality of heatmap data
Different probe ammo can provide different information, or react based on objects in the target system
Using the data they have gathered the player must align their ship as best they can with the target system and activate the hyperdrive to jump to the system
The player’s ship records data of any successful jumps the player makes
The pilots federation will always pay players for the first successful jump they make using the exploration method (If the player bought the map data for the jump they cannot sell the data), even if the player is not the first person ever to make the jump (the pilots federation use the data to improve their telemetry and keep maps up to date)
If the player is the first person to ever make the journey they receive a bonus for discovering the hyperspace route
The closer the player lines up their jump to the target system, the higher quality the data the players ship will gather on the jump. Higher quality data is worth more money when sold to authorities
If a player’s jump is not accurate enough they may suffer a miss jump
Longer distance jumps require a higher level of accuracy
A systems contents may also affect how accurate a players jump must be to avoid mis-jumping



Players use scanners to detect points of interest within systems
The player’s scanners detect various points of interest around the player
It takes time for players scanners to detect points of interest
Player’s proximity to a point of interest can affect the time it takes to detect
Proximity may often have risks associated with it - Solar Radiation for example
Players ship facing can affect the time it takes to detect a point of interest (e.g. pointing my ship at a undiscovered point of interest will allow me to scan it faster)
Different types of points of interest can require different player actions to detect
For example to detect a mineral rich formation of asteroids the player must launch probes around an asteroid field
The probes provide a cross section from their perspective of the asteroid field they’re launched at
Each additional probe the player uses provides more details on the target asteroid field
The player uses their scanner to view the data from the probes, and must tag the areas with the highest concentration of minerals in the field
Once this process is complete the point of interest is completed
The quality of the players scan of the area affects the value of the data
The quality of the player’s scan can affect the amount and type of materials found in the asteroids
Players can sell the information that they discover through these methods
Players will have to travel back to sell the data they acquire while exploring
The first player to sell/discover the information recieves a greater reward
Information by become redundant from time to time as the galaxy moves and it can then be resold



Players can sell information they have gathered to other players as well as authorities. This is done through a trade interface similar to the trade goods trading interface. Players can sell hyperspace routes from their location to any single system they have explored to. The purchasing player then offers a price (this can be 0 if it is a gift), and if both players are satisfied they agree to the trade. Players can also trade in system data including locations of points of interest using the same method.

Players can take photographs (essentially screenshots) from their view ports (with and without cockpit and GUI etc)
Player photographs can be submitted to a regular photography contest
Players can only submit one photograph each
Players can vote on a selection of the best photographs
The player(s) who get the most votes wins the competition
The winner gets a (in game) cash prize (plus prizes for 2nd 3rd most weird etc.)
The photograph (and other user submissions) will be used in appropriate places in the game (billboards, news papers, etc.)



Players who decide to go exploring are jumping into the unknown, and without high end kit, often with little to no knowledge of the dangers they are jumping in to. Alongside the risk of encountering hostility when jumping to an unknown system, explorers scanners attract a lot of attention, generating lots of heat. Explorer ships will need to be prepared to face hostile activity when exploring, and players need to be ready to fight for their claims or run for their lives.

Dan Davies
Dan Davies Designer- Elite: Dangerous

 

[Blackcompany]

Stop taking the bait, folks. You're asking people to explain where they see depth, but the ones you're asking aren't going to provide an answer.

Start hitting down forum user names. Research post history. They're here to defend the game. It's literally their job. That's become obvious by now.

When they can point out the depth, show me where it comes from, I might believe otherwise. But until then, based on history, I will not engage with anyone else whose literal job on the forums is to protest, bury or pointlessly refute without substance Actual Criticisms.

Just ignore it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

That's simply disingenuous in the extreme.

My post lacked depth?

 

[Jex =TE=]

Because you can 'discover' distant star systems by looking out of your window? Sure, you can say 'screw the idea that stars are kinda bright and easy to see, for the sake of gameplay!'. That would be a valid position. But then please dont say 'telepresence makes no sense'.

Yes, that always was an issue with the "discover stars" options since they glow but given the ED have pulled with Engineers alone, we can still gripe about TP

 

[babelfisch]

Stop taking the bait, folks. You're asking people to explain where they see depth, but the ones you're asking aren't going to provide an answer.

Start hitting down forum user names. Research post history. They're here to defend the game. It's literally their job. That's become obvious by now.

When they can point out the depth, show me where it comes from, I might believe otherwise. But until then, based on history, I will not engage with anyone else whose literal job on the forums is to protest, bury or pointlessly refute without substance Actual Criticisms.

Just ignore it.

I just explained it, but it's easier for you to ignore it and call me a paid fanboy instead. I also provided lots of criticism, both here and in many other threads. Actually I criticised the game a few posts ago. Maybe everyone just needs to read what others have to say without deliberately trying not to understand them.

 

[iFred]

*snip* *snap* *bada boom tss*

I was kicked in da butt for referencing to the DDF just a couple of days ago. White-Knights garbage was something like "There is a difference between a plan and the implementation".

Yes. There is. and right now the implementation is at 5 % when the plan was 100 %.

 

[Blackcompany]

I was kicked in da butt for referencing to the DDF just a couple of days ago. White-Knights garbage was something like "There is a difference between a plan and the implementation".

Yes. There is. and right now the implementation is at 5 % when the plan was 100 %.

Exactly. The game is all about wait walls, time sinks and minimal interaction.

The galaxy does not respond sufficiently to what little interaction there is for you to shape a personal narrative.

For that, consequences must exist for actions. We must have tools with which to shape the sand in the box. We lack that now.

Press J. Wait.
Hold trigger. Wait.
Load some rares. Wait.
Roll dice at RNGineer slot machine. Wait.
Target USS. Wait.

The game doesn't even try to pretend it wants to be interactive. IT KNOWS it's a shameless time sink. It's literally everywhere: Hera Tani, RNG Mats. USS contents. Ten or more second jumps. It's like they don't care whether the game is actually a game. Perfectly content to have it simply occupy your time, whether or not it's actually fun.

 

[babelfisch]

I was kicked in da butt for referencing to the DDF just a couple of days ago. White-Knights garbage was something like "There is a difference between a plan and the implementation".

Yes. There is. and right now the implementation is at 5 % when the plan was 100 %.

Sigh... "White-Knights garbage"
Maybe less people would disagree with you if you stop acting like this?

 

[Mengy]

For example, many explorers (me included) want some kind of heatmap-scanner for resources on planets. It isnt 'deep' or 'complex' in any way, it wont add any actual 'challenge' either. But it would be fun. But saying it is fun sounds a bit... weak, so we call it 'depth'.

Incorrect. Heatmaps would provide players with active feedback, forcing them to make choices during gameplay. Ideally the heatmaps would be accompanied by new search mechanics too, giving players more decisions and actions as they hunt for and eventually find things. These actions and goal choices during gameplay based on feedback due to mechanics – that is by definition “depth”.

“Fun” is subjective, but “depth” is measurable. Also depth is not challenge, it is complexity enabling player interaction and decisions.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Mengy described what Depth means. It's exactly what FDEV added with Powerplay, apart from being crap (your words, but I tend to agree). So they added crap depth. It's still depth though

You misunderstand.

Depth=what I like
What I dont like = not depth

A very simple definition that works wonders on this forum. For example, many explorers (me included) want some kind of heatmap-scanner for resources on planets. It isnt 'deep' or 'complex' in any way, it wont add any actual 'challenge' either. But it would be fun. But saying it is fun sounds a bit... weak, so we call it 'depth'.

I think it's fairly easy to know what is deep and what isn't.

Sleut's heat scanner map - not a particularly deep addition to gameplay and it isn't, on it's own but when you add it to an array of other exploration tools you can use then you start finding your depth. The heatscanner needs to be used and you don't know what you're going to find. That's where the fun comes in if there's interesting things to discover. I'd go further with Sleuts scanner myself and make it more complex to pick up life forms (basic bacteria IS interesting you know, especially under a microscope and if you add procedural generation you can come up with infinite possibilites. The same coulld be said for algae and each new lifeform discovered gives the big, big bucks)

The scanner could also be used to heat map and scan for celestial objects, you can look through it in IV, Infra red, basically all the different forms of light. Now you can scan planets from orbit, you have the chance of finding a massive gold deposit or maybe basic life or maybe an alien ruin or maybe a drifting cargo ship on top of extending the galaxy map (too late for that fun now).

Now you tell me Bable - is that deeper gameplay or should we stick with honking?

 

[babelfisch]

Incorrect. Heatmaps would provide players with active feedback, forcing them to make choices during gameplay. Ideally the heatmaps would be accompanied by new search mechanics too, giving players more decisions and actions as they hunt for and eventually find things. These actions and goal choices during gameplay based on feedback due to mechanics – that is by definition “depth”.

“Fun” is subjective, but “depth” is measurable. Also depth is not challenge, it is complexity enabling player interaction and decisions.

So just like players can filter the galaxy map for different powers and see where action is needed. This enables interaction and decisions.

But wait, the example doesn't count because nobody likes it.

 

[iFred]

Sigh... "White-Knights garbage"
Maybe less people would disagree with you if you stop acting like this?

Garbage. Verbal ebola. Nothing else. There´s no need to defend or take a position for or against anything, but lying or writing wrong facts is a thing where I get angry pretty fast.

There are always good and valid reasons for NOT implementing something. Money, Ressources, technical difficulties, time - whatever. We should all have in mind what was the base of kickstarter. 2 million pounds raised by the early game designs.

 

[babelfisch]

I think it's fairly easy to know what is deep and what isn't.

Sleut's heat scanner map - not a particularly deep addition to gameplay and it isn't, on it's own but when you add it to an array of other exploration tools you can use then you start finding your depth. The heatscanner needs to be used and you don't know what you're going to find. That's where the fun comes in if there's interesting things to discover. I'd go further with Sleuts scanner myself and make it more complex to pick up life forms (basic bacteria IS interesting you know, especially under a microscope and if you add procedural generation you can come up with infinite possibilites. The same coulld be said for algae and each new lifeform discovered gives the big, big bucks)

The scanner could also be used to heat map and scan for celestial objects, you can look through it in IV, Infra red, basically all the different forms of light. Now you can scan planets from orbit, you have the chance of finding a massive gold deposit or maybe basic life or maybe an alien ruin or maybe a drifting cargo ship on top of extending the galaxy map (too late for that fun now).

Now you tell me Bable - is that deeper gameplay or should we stick with honking?

There is a very important point that you and the others don't understand:

I AM NOT AGAINST MORE DEPTH

I don't disagree that something needs to be done about various elements of the game. Better exploration mechanics would be great!

PS
And again:
I provide lots of criticism myself. Seriously, almost all threads I created ask for stuff to be changed.