#support3rdparty - Why we temporarily shut down our sites.

[Ozric]

Really?

I think the fact that you say as soon as an API was released you started reverse engineering it to make it do what you wanted it to rather than what Frontier had intended it to do says everything it needs to. So does the fact that people carry on developing things even when they are told by FD that it is forbidden to do so. It doesn't matter does it, they'll change their minds in the end... You want open real time information transfer, FD have always said they don't. Simple. And trying to pretend you would be happy with anything less isn't going to be believed by anyone.

Some of the tools that the community have designed are amazing pieces of work, but to act like you are somehow entitled to the full support and attention of FD is ridiculous. Considering the amount of threads and posts there are on these forums moaning about how FD aren't doing their job properly in creating or designing the game, where exactly do you imagine they're going to pluck this extra dedicated support just for you from?

#NotInMyName

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Cassini, which just re-established contact a short time ago, wouldn't have been possible without 3rd party support.

 

[asgard]

I think the best would be, that FD does implement all these functionallitys from the 3d party tools to the FULLSCREEN game itself, because why it is not possible to get Informations from Enginees and/or Traderoutes, Ships etc from the ship computer in the year 330X. Why i we must travel back in space to the year 2017 in another really to use old website-services in (and for much people in languages that they do not understand), to get informations that ar not up to date or incorrect in many cases.

 

[FearGTV]

For me those 3rd party tools are extremely helpful and add much value to the experience one can get from playing Elite: Dangerous.
So, please Frontier - SUPPORT them!
They are worthy.

 

[Jermus]

Hi everyone. Just letting you know we've seen the thread. Please be patient while we bring this to the attention of the developers.

Just quickly want to mention that we always try to communicate as openly and effectively with our community as possible, and we appreciate all the hard work that goes in to the maintenance of these useful sites and tools.

I have also sent a PM to the OP, too

Thanks for your patience everyone!

What I perceive from the communication I have seen so far from FDev is that it certainly is intended to be as openly and effectively with your community as possible. What this thread (partially) shows is that this hasn't been good enough for the major 3rd party tool developers. Now I do not know what has actually been communicated to 3rd party developers, nor their efforts to get / adapt this information in the 3rd party tools, what I do know is that I use the following tools quite often:

• Coriolis EDCD Edition
• Elite : Dangerous Database (EDDB)
• Elite : Dangerous Star Map (EDSM)
• INARA

The above mentioned sites offer functionality that I would like to have available in game. I know that you (FDev) cannot do all at the same time, that you have to prioritize your activities (and that some of that functionality is not intended to be in game ever). Therefore I am glad that there are 3rd party developers who offer this kind of functionality outside the game.

Having to do without this functionality diminishes my game experience.

So please, FDev, take this action as an indication that, despite positive intentions, the communication about changes to the so called Companion API has not been up to par with the expectation of your community (Road maps, release notes and patch notes given up front might do wonders for this , if only for the Companion API).

I write this partly because I want to support the creators of the 3rd party tools and partly because this is a game that I actually care enough about to write something like this for it!

So, Frontier, keep up the good work! I love the 2.3 additions. I love the pace in which patches are provided. I would appreciate it tremendously if you could sort out this communication issue with the 3rd party developers.

 

[Havoc4U]

I daily use INARA & Corolios ECDC - this is very sad. I completely support these 3rd party sites. Hope things get worked out.

 

[Ozorr]

For the record - Whilst I support the 3rd party developer's position and I know reverse engineering code/programming is difficult, even harder when the thing they're working on keeps changing...but it's the nature of the beast, dealing with a game that's evolving over a 10y cycle. Should F:ED hire someone to manage code changes and communicate/train 3rd party developers, I don't know, I'd probably say no. Should they hire the 3rd party developers and employ them full-time, hell yeah, but it's probably impossible due to that money thing.

I would prefer it if F:ED would integrate/copy/take inspiration from these tools and change the in-game functionality to match. I ask the question, why do these tools exist in the first place? Why do tonnes of people use them instead/in addition to the in-game functionality?

It works in context with the game: In the 3rd Millennium, I imagine something in the form of the internet would exist. Why do I have to fly to a station to find out if they stock the module I want, why can I not look it up? Why do I need to waste 15-30min of precious (life) game time? ...and then repeat this exercise at the various stations that don't stock the module I need? Some people repeatably ask other people on reddit/forums/discord where to find things, which is even worse than them looking it up for themselves.

I'd like to track the locations i've visited, so I can go backto them, why should I copy/paste system names into a google doc, or use captain's log? I shouldn't have to, I should be able to do it in-game. Captain's log worked, I used it, it was great...but I shouldn't have had to use it.

It takes time to create a masterpiece, so until the game evolves maybe it's worth supporting 3rd party developers, until F:ED can take their good ideas and do away with the demand.

Nonetheless, much respect to all the developers involved who are making a game I love playing. I know it's hard and complex and then dealing with the salty public (me, etc) is irritating and like dust in the wind. However, if I don't express my opinion, you'll never know I have one.

Cheers

 

[Marcus Tullius]

I’m in. Everything that brings FD from height of their god-like deafness and silence to the ground is good for the game. ED couldn’t exist without its player base and we wouldn’t be ED’s community without the game. There’s traitors as usual, but this is great opportunity for updating my ignore list.

 

[mtt9999 [Parabolus]]

In my opinion EDDISCOVERY and EDSM are the single most important resource for exploration. Resulting from the lack of resources FDEV puts toward enhancing exploration in-game, these tools are vital for developing a deeper appreciation of the expanse of the Milky Way galaxy, and allows players to develop narratives and histories within the galaxy as a whole. Without these tools exploration in elite would be not much more than honk, scan, jump, repeat - with EDDISCOVERY and EDSM, however, exploration is as rich as the Milky Way itself. If these tools were permanently gone, it is conceivable that I might leave my cockpit for good.

- Cmdr Parabolus

 

[GreyAreaUK]

There’s traitors as usual,

Seriously? Traitors?

Ok, step away from the keyboard and go for a walk in the fresh air.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

They aren't complaining about the game. They're complaining about the Developers not creating a simple API for 3rd party support.

Umm.. but there is an API and that's how these sites work. They tap into the API and Journal.

What they want is more ease of access and functionality as i understand it. And presumably more openness and documentation.

And I can support what they want.... just not what they are doing.

As someone else said, if FD give in here, then the next time they want something they can do it again, and other groups with large followings can do the same. Its the same situation as dealing with terrorists or hostage situations (and no, i'm not comparing the 3rd party devs with terrorists or hostage takers - just saying its the same principle - before someone jumps in and tries to say i am saying that).

Once you give in, you open yourself to every tom, richard, and harry who wants to push their own agenda.

If anything, they might now have harmed their own position, as if FD cave in now, they open themselves to more of this in the future. They might be best off making a firm statement of "We will be making no changes at this time"

And then what? Those sites will go offline? Ok. A pain, and the community will be upset for a while. Or they will say, ok, we have what we have and things work, so let's just get on with things. Or maybe new devs will come along and fill in the gaps.

All depends on FD now I guess. I know what i would do in such a situation though, and it would not be to capitulate. If it means some loss, i'd accept that. I would never allow myself to be held to ransom.

 

[pipo zelvelder]

I don't support blackmailing FDev this way[1].

[1]: Throwing a tantrum like a toddler until you get your goodies.

If you think it is blackmailing, then you agree that 3rd parties are necessary to play the game; then support their request??? it is the site of the 3rd party tooler and they can close it whenever they want to, for whatever reason they see fit. If that is seen as blackmailing, there is really something wrong with your perspective of right and wrong; 3rd party have every right to do this and make a statement

 

[Jex =TE=]

It shows that these people can not be trusted with the responsibility to host and operate their tools without abusing them.
The current action is proof that these sites are abusing their powers in order to blackmail FDev - it's not a nice way at all.

Oh stop being so dramatic. Their site, their rules. Period. You don't like it then don't use their site but they can do what they like with it. Also, try reading the OP so it doesn't look like you've skipped it and started posting instead.

 

[MottiKhan]

I'm just going to say that the timing of this is obvious, and to be honest, very childish. It is, at best, wasting the time and effort of the playerbase in the event. FDev didnt have to do anything for 3rd party developers at all.

As one of the Admirals coordinating the defense, you've now made my life a living hell, and I will not support 3rd party developers from this point forward.

With me, all this has accomplished is a personal boycott of sites that I once considered useful.

Had you done so at a time where it was less vital to Drew Wagar and more respectful to the amount of time and effort that people who aren't getting paid at all (like myself and literally more than a thousand others) I would be more supportive.

I understand that you're our group's leader. But that doesn't mean I'll blindly follow you or agree with you. You certainly don't speak for me.

Inara and the other 3rd party tools have been a boon to most ED players for a long, long time. While Drew has added to the game for those who follow his writings, the tools help many more players. If the developers feel the need to shut down during this event in order to be heard, it's not their doing. There's an underlying problem that has brought this to a head.

I fully support Inara and eddb in this. It might be a little inconvenient as far as the event on the 29th goes, but that's not a big deal.

You're using this to boycott and quit supporting these tools? How about if I quit supporting you?

 

[kromit]

Some 3rd party tools are almost a REQUIREMENT to actually be able to progress in this game.

 

[Paroxsym]

Do you understand what you are saying?

First you say : FDev doesn't have to support 3rd party tools. Fair enough.
Then you say: Without these tools, your life is a living hell.

Which is it?

I'm saying that they chose to make these sites, etc of their own free will. FDev never asked them to do it. Why should they expect treatment any different than the rest of us get?

That being said, I'm now having to field an insane number of questions from people who no longer have access to the things they use daily (I don't really use the 3rd party tools much myself. Only if I have a major brain fart or need to illustrate something to someone. Otherwise, I typically avoid them)

While I do not personally rely on them, there is a huge number of people that do. And those people are now lost and confused, potentially damaging both Wagar's event (and hence, livelihood) and trampling the effort that people like myself and so so many others have been putting in trying to give the community the best experience possible this weekend.

 

[Ozric]

Ed, with all due respect...

Please read the entirety of the post.

we are not demanding anything from Frontier

Ummm, perhaps you should read the entirety of the post.

 

[ries]

I think the operative word here is volunteering, the moment you set demands it stops volunteering.

 

[knight9000]

To all the naysayers....
The reason these sites exist is becuase there is a need for them. Can I trade using in game? Sure. But I will make half the money and take far longer looking for a route in game then using eddb. I can use that to find the optimal trade route and add filters as needed. I dont have that in game. I get a generic trad eroute. Also they might not even have the item for me to be able to trade when I get there!

And if I need to find a specific item?! WOW. that is very hard without a third party site like eddb.

Yes they are third party sites. But they are here becuase we NEED them. If we didnt the sites would thrive.
They are working hard to provide useful tools to US the community. Its not something they have to do... We should show our appreciation and support to them for all they do in helping make our lives vastly easier. They do it for us and they do it for free. They have no obligation to provide these tools to us.
If you feel you dont need thier hard work then dont use thier tools. But those of us who use thier tools SHOULD rally behind them not against them. They can just as easily NOT make these tools and then where will we be?

Take world of warcraft for example....some addons on ther ehave over a MILLION people in the world using them.....Wow has basicaly come out and said they know and understand people use addons and support it.
Imagine raids in wow without DBM and vent and other addons haha xD


And look at the in game tools. From a lore perspective why is it in this 3000+ year as we travel the galaxy we have terrible computer and communication systems? I mean if I scan planets and so forth to get "up to date" information then sell the data why is it not automaticly updated with ALL the other stations and systems? And from there why not let it be purchasable as one big map "current map"?
Same with trading....you have a website in 2017 that can keep track of it all.....why cant we have the same IN game when the year is 3000?!

Just food for thought
Anyways I for one support these developers....especially those who do eddb

 

[Carthbet]

You have my support Lads. Without this tools Elite wouldn't be what it is now. Loads of People use them (Myself included) and FDevs should make every effort to Communicate and Support you guys. While Game itself is Brilliant those tools Help whole Community BY ADDING into Depth, enjoyment and immersion of the game (Even after I finish my Playing Session I still Review Comments and posts on those websites).

I support you and I refrain from playing Elite without You guys.

Why?

I play for Fun. To Experience the game. 3rd Party tools allow me to play the game I LIKE to play. Without them I Can't play the way I like. No point playing if I don't like it.