#support3rdparty - Why we temporarily shut down our sites.

[IcePic]

I think Frontier does have an obligation to state whether they encourage/support third party addins. If so, then give the devs what they ask. If not, then devs will just have to make do.
But the ambiguity from Frontier is not helpful.

^^^this.

I think even getting a "No" early would have been better than empty promises.

 

[ZombieMoses]

Its sad really that we need external sites in the first place, the fact that FDEV aren't helping these guys is really poor form imho. I use / have used many of the above sites so whilst it will inconvenience me, i fully support you with doing this (for what that is worth).

There's actually a lot to be said about getting the community involved, to come together and make useful tools for the game. The best thing FDev can do is make a good and well documented API and allow the players to choose which sites have the features and approach they desire. If FDev just did it for us, we wouldn't have a choice necessarily, which would suck if you found their tools wanting.

 

[koberko]

I can't decide what is worse; fact that this tools that this 3rd party apps provide are not available in game, or fact that FDev gives zero about people who create this tools in their free time in order to enhance this game, and community around it. So, I personally fully support 3rd party developers on this.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

This sounds as if its a deliberate attempt to destroy the event on the 29th. A years worth of preparation is going to be lost. So I guess that's it for any more events like the 29th because if creating events like this causes this much hassle or open to exploitation/Blackmail, I don't see Frontier doing any others.

The 3rd Party Tools in question are excellent, no-one is doubting that, and, to some players, they are essential. Personally, Coriolis.edcd.io and INARA are two I really enjoy using and enhance the E : D experience but they don't stop me playing if they're not available.

Isn't the API a 'Nice to Have'?

Frontier didn't have to supply one

Wasn't the API reverse engineered from the old iPad app?

If companies provide this kind of thing, they're normally provided with goodwill and the understanding of, 'we might have to change the interface at any time'. Its something developers have to be aware of whenever a new API is released (Looks nervously at the next Android release). I know its frustrating but you can only work with what is provided, things like this will just erode that good will.

We know that 2.3 is being a pain and there is always a flurry of patches after a big release. It might have been better to wait until a couple of patches have stabilized the release, before performing this action. You would have still gotten the support and you would have had mine. However this, combined with toxicity around 2.3 has got me worried that not only will we see no new events like the Salome event but development might on E : D might even stop after 2.4.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

That's the nature of developing third-party mods. The company/entity/community/product you're making them for are not obligated to give you anything in return. That's like doing 3 years of charity work and then complaining that you weren't thanked enough.

If you're developing third-party mods and you use "but I'm working for free" as an argument for not getting your own way then there's something wrong - you are not entitled to anything by default.

I agree.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Umm.. but there is an API and that's how these sites work. They tap into the API and Journal.

What they want is more ease of access and functionality as i understand it. And presumably more openness and documentation.

And I can support what they want.... just not what they are doing.

As someone else said, if FD give in here, then the next time they want something they can do it again, and other groups with large followings can do the same. Its the same situation as dealing with terrorists or hostage situations (and no, i'm not comparing the 3rd party devs with terrorists or hostage takers - just saying its the same principle - before someone jumps in and tries to say i am saying that).

Once you give in, you open yourself to every tom, richard, and harry who wants to push their own agenda.

If anything, they might now have harmed their own position, as if FD cave in now, they open themselves to more of this in the future. They might be best off making a firm statement of "We will be making no changes at this time"

And then what? Those sites will go offline? Ok. A pain, and the community will be upset for a while. Or they will say, ok, we have what we have and things work, so let's just get on with things. Or maybe new devs will come along and fill in the gaps.

All depends on FD now I guess. I know what i would do in such a situation though, and it would not be to capitulate. If it means some loss, i'd accept that. I would never allow myself to be held to ransom.

I don't understand where you get off telling other people when they can and can't shut down their own website? You can't support people doing what they want with their property? You can't support thousands of hours of work belonging to the people that put in that work and letting them own it?

It seems to me you are massively self entitled.

Does anyone else have a sight used by so many of the player base every day? If no, then no, nobody else is going to come along and try this as well. So great strawman there AND slippery slope (did you see what I did there? )

I would imagine if the site is as popular as claimed that a removal of it would cause chaos and good! It's about time FDev started putting in things the community want and not rubbish like Engineers, CQC, PowerPlay (not the versio nwe got anyway), etc, etc....

 

[Snodlander]

It's time to make a choice Frontier Development...

It's time to make a choice Frontier Development.

Do you:

a) Go the way of Betamax and Apple and make your products very proprietary, relying on the skills and abilities of your developers to provide the functionality that the community wants, and your sales and marketing teams to drive ongoing adoption of your products. (i.e. You pay your employees to feed the beast)

OR

b) Go the way of the USB phone charger and Microsoft X-Box by making your products open to the broader community, defining and documenting public APIs etc. therein leveraging the wisdom of the crowd to create meaningful (free) interfaces and bolt-ons that help sell your core products to new users through the building of a successful and passionate support community outside of the Frontier offices. (i.e. We all feed the beast for you, for free)


Personally, I dropped my Betamax kit back in the mid 80's and moved away from Apple last year - except in that I still run XBMC on my ATV2.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Ok, let's approach this in a considered and professional manner.

Close the APIs. Provide better in-game tools. Subsequently open API access to contracted third parties, for a fee.

Don't be held to ransom ever again

Haha, i was just saying on Discord, the ultimate troll move from FD right now would be to announce 2.4 was bringing in-game tools that replicated eddb.io, inara, edsm, etc in game

Of course, it won't happen (or at least all the features). Fairly sure FD don't want automated trade calculators in game, and really don't want to support them out of game any more than they have to.

But some aspects of Inara (wings) are highly demanded features to see in game, and they may make it in game at some point.

 

[SteveStrop]

3rd party resources make the game playable.

I never write on forums. I even had to create an account to do so today. I only play Elite Horizons, and have only played since Jan this year. The only other video game I've ever played was Original Elite on my BBC micro.

I am amazed that people put so much time and effort into the free resources that are 3rd party sites. I am seriously grateful.

FD, your game is very, very wide but not very deep.
These third party tools remove some of the tedious width.

I mean I spent about 2 hours of playing time (and as I have a job this represents a large fraction of my free time) searching for some modu-nano-unobtaino-hose-thingy using the in game suggestions. Of course I found nothing. A quick internet search told me about a magic third party tool I could use to pin down likely systems for my search. Two or three jumps and a USS or two and I'd found what I was looking for.

The game isn't more fun because it takes ages to find stuff (why do devs think grind=fun?). It's more fun doing stuff and getting on with it.

I would have quit months ago if it wasn't for the 3rd party resources that point me in the right direction for stuff I need.

Come on FD help these guys out, they keep your game alive.

Thanks again 3rd party guys - you're incredible.

 

[Trickylion]

Support the work, don't support strike action, pls FDev listen and act, this is inappropriate timing though

 

[macraven]

With out the sites listed above i would not be playing Elite dangerous.

 

[Cajun76]

The 3rd party tools have proved invaluable in making Elite a great game. As others have said, they are symbiotic. An open line of communication and coordination (even just a "head's up" from Frontier) can only benefit us all.

Sites like Coriolis provide a vital feature that is frankly missing from the game: Who would build a billion credit ship without having an idea of how all it's systems would work together? I'd love to see it taken a step further, and have the ability to build and test a ship without purchasing it (maybe only available if you actually have the credits to make the purchase), flying it in some sort of generic arena, test range or virtual pocket of space, to see how it handles fuel scooping, combat, landing on a high G world, etc. If you've ever played Armored Core, you know what I mean. But the bare minimum, of being able to put a complete ship together and see what it's stats would look like is glaringly missing from the game. The reason you don't see more complaints about something like that are directly because of sites like ED Shipyard and Coriolis fulfilling that role.

These 3rd party tools are part of the wider community collaboration, and collaboration is something that Frontier encourages, as far as I know. They deserve support, and they have mine.

 

[pipo zelvelder]

No he nails it. But the mob will win, I'm pretty sure.

I am not that confident; firstly, because he totally did not nail it (there is a big difference between payed FD employees and 3rd part volunteers) and secondly, because the MOB has already payed... However, is seasons pass is over, it might be disrupting enough for FD to let the MOB win...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I don't understand where you get off telling other people when they can and can't shut down their own website?

I don't see how you read that into what i posted!

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I support the 3rd party devs in this endeavor. I've used EDDB and Inara extensively in the past. Without them (and/or the other sites), this game would be a lot more frustrating and far less enjoyable.

 

[CMDR MERANGO]

Supported - we miss you already.

Good luck and thank you.

CMIV

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

Adding my support. Many of these tools have been extremely important to my time in Elite. I really don't think the game is all that playable without tools like EDDB.IO to help you find ships, modules, commodities, bodies, minerals, etc.

Frontier needs to take this very seriously.

 

[tarks382]

Just got out of the hospital, since I'm stuck until I can walk thought I'd get caught up and finally do engineers. Thanks for screwing that all up to make a point they won't hear.

That's a fairly jaded point of view. I'm guessing the reason you were hoping for their products was that they are an enormous help to the game and its players. Thus deserving of your support rather than cynicism.

How sympathetic am I that you just came out of hospital? Well I'm in exactly the same boat. Came out yesterday, miss EDDB but can't find it in myself to slag these guys off for making their point.

Power to them.

 

[Paramemetic]

Ok, let's approach this in a considered and professional manner.

Close the APIs. Provide better in-game tools. Subsequently open API access to contracted third parties, for a fee.

Don't be held to ransom ever again

Frontier isn't being held ransom here, you are not entitled to the labor value generated by 3rd party tool developers. The third parties are absolutely allowed and should be encouraged to demonstrate their necessity to the community. For two years, 3rd party developers have been working without an API to develop tools that make this game playable, not just convenient. Strike action is the correct action to make a demand here for support which was recently withdrawn.

When you donate your labor to a cause, and Frontier makes it harder rather than easier, this seems like a reasonable action. Quit having a whine because people who value their own time and effort to make things better for you and for the entire community, without pay, mind, are demanding some minor concessions from Frontier.

If you think that this is "ransom" that only proves that their services are valuable and necessary, and that only goes to show that Frontier needs to provide working API solutions to work with these people rather than against them.

 

[masCh]

If you're developing third-party mods and you use "but I'm working for free" as an argument for not getting your own way then there's something wrong - you are not entitled to anything by default.

And we are not entitled to the third party tools being online this weekend.