#support3rdparty - Why we temporarily shut down our sites.

[MikeSnos]

I fully support the development efforts of those who work on 3rd party apps and wish that FD not only cooperated with the developers of those apps, but also had an appreciation for the QUALITY of those efforts. FD should be paying these guys rather than locking them out of the loop as what they produce is consistently creative and of superb quality that on average is nowhere near as bugged as ED itself.

Without these tools, ED is half of what it has been. Having already gone through all the "content" I'm interested in ED, my only source of motivation to keep playing recently has been working on incorporation Voice Attack and EDDI into my gameplay. The only thing I have to look forward to at present is the continued study into these superb 3rd party apps into an effective cohesive functional complement to the ED core. Without them, I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to maintain my interest in ED and likewise demotivate me to continue spending in the ED store.

I have over 4500 hours in-game and really hope FD gets this right.

I'd further like to see FD put up options to import my history data from before I started using these external applications. I understand that this would impact server load and I am willing to PAY for this extra optional service. FD needs to think about how to leverage and take advantage of the huge number of players who use these applications, rather than ignoring them and the authors who put countless hours providing them to the community.

The ball's in your court FD.

I've never NEEDED the third party apps in question and manage reasonably well... They do nothing that co-operative play and communication between players can't achieve. As for ED paying the 3rd parties why should they? The third parties wrote these things for the player base partly as a bit of fun and also for the geeky aspects of it (I know... I'm one of the third party developers but not one of the ones in the OP)

No offense Edward, but after 3 years of somewhat one-sided conversations, we have been shown to be patient.

One-sided? Nonsense! You can bet there have been conversations and communication. What people fail to remember is that the core direction of FDs efforts is the game itself and the wider player base rather than the user base of the third party apps. PLUS its a two-way street. Provide USEFUL information and diagnostics to FD and you will get feedback in return but do so while remembering that it's not all about you!

Looking back on this thread so far since it began its obvious that the huge majority of players agree with the 3rd party developers and the reasons they are taking action. A smaller minority do not support it...who knows why, but I leave that to them. Its clear that the community vote is in favour. FD should take note as with a dwindling community their game dies eventually. Its happened before, but Devs usually have their heads up somewhere dark and warm and stinky thinking they are above everything. Pitty.

Looks like the 3rd party developers in the OP have their heads up somewhere too... Probably smells a bit too...

Without INARA the Engineer grind would go from tedious to unbearable. The reason these 3rd party sites exist is that the game itself doesn't offer enough information.

In a way they are a crutch, supporting weaknesses in the game itself. That said, losing them at this stage would be a disaster.

Yes that's all they are... a help... they're not essential in the way that dialysis or a ventilator are....

I see it more like they're volunteering.

They've volunteered hundreds of hours.

They don't want to volunteer anymore until the company they are volunteering for gives them a line of communication.

They're not volunteering for FD though... they're volunteering for the player-base.

Reading through it seems what third party tools encourage most of all is laziness...pen and paper folks, that's how we did it in 1984!

That's my thinking too.... Learn to work for your dough folks!

 

[pipo zelvelder]

This is very, very risky and more than a little childish. I hope that this pans out for them, but as someone who played beta just fine with pen and paper notes...

Apparently, you missed the part where they explain they feel like there backed upon the wall and have no other ways to achieve what has to be achieved to continue supporting the site. That is why I support them. As someone who plays this game for over a year, I can cope with pencil and paper just fine, but because new players and beginning players probably can or will not, I support them. And you should too...

 

[tomalus]

thrudds trading tool helped me get into my first big ship the anaconda, in jan 2015 because it made me see how the trading system works and what the max prices are

withoud inara modding my ships would be hell

edshipyard helps alot in building specs,also it was very helpful before when stats were hidden ingame

eddb with voice attack is amazing for vr

The game works without them but its much less fun and alot more frustrating if you dont know where to look for.For average joe player finding rare enginering mats is hell, 3rd party tools help him alot and reduce rage.

 

[MrAndyBurns]

Wow … what a can of worms.

I was initially surprised by the amount of 3rd party apps with Elite data on and could not believe that so many people had invested so much time in developing these it appeared Frontier supported this.

As somebody who always enjoys finding a ‘way around’ getting digital information moved around easily I really liked this concept.

The 3rd party sites don’t appear to be in competition of official resources available and IMO make the game more immersive and actually got me back into enjoying and playing. I remember the days in front of my BBC waiting for the game to load by tape, writing down market prices then jump aimlessly around … now I feel like a logistics manager planning my movements using quality information.

Seeing all these comments helps me feel it’s a really big community out there and while IMO Frontier are under no obligation to provide or even allow access to this information, given the enhancement it can provide, I hope they and support 3rd party developers in the future.

Best of luck everybody!

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

But they are holding FD to ransom here. They are saying "Give us what we want, or else". Ok, technically speaking ransom usually means demands for money and that's not what is going on here. Extortion fits better, but that's a really nasty word and I don't want to use it to describe what the guys are doing, but it is technically correct.

I'd just like to address this point, Agony.

That is frankly a load of tosh.

No actual demands are being made. The letter is as salt-free and as professional as we could make it.

The sites 'strike' is completely understandable - read the History section and you should be able to understand why this action was felt necessary in the form it was. If you think it was only going to be a case of "We'll just send a PM and receive a 'We'll pass this on' and hear nothing again for weeks/months/never", then think again - you are being naive.

There are NO demands here. We did not write WE DEMAND. We wrote suggestions which we feel could oil the wheels between Frontier and the 3rd-party tool developers. You have zero grounds to make that claim.

Lastly, I am of the opinion that you are severely overreacting and that you have entirely misread the OP.

Regards.

 

[Kai Calimatinus]

I think the sheer amount of posts so far demonstrate their point succinctly

Anyone saying you don't care because you don't use them?
Radical. Sweet. No skin of your back.
It's great, honestly, you have not a care in the world and continue playing.

Anyone saying you're a billionaire and/or been playing since beta and we're doing fine?
Well there you go 4000 hours plus in a game is going to get that far.

Some of us have an hour a day tops to log in, if connection is even steady, to try and get things done. Just the flying takes long enough as it is, let alone working out the best places to do money things or find items. Not all of us had the cash to join the kick-starter or were aware of it. While some of us remember the old Elites, we're also not all older pros who grew up with it. Anything to assist in making some use of the game beyond visiting a new station once a week is fun.

This strike is punishing players not Frontier?
Yes.
Yes, it's a strike. It pushes public opinion against the target by denial of the service to the public, in order to press the other party towards engaging and dealing with the concerns.

They should not have gone on strike, and tried more diplomatic approaches?

Read the post. Frontier went quiet and would not talk. That was the problem.

They aren't supported in any capacity, Frontier don't profit? Check the newsletters. There are endorsements there. Fdev get positive community press off the backs of volunteer work and snub the developers working alone.

The programming team have out in a lot of work these last few weeks and I'm incredibly impressed.
Usually on the forums community engagement has been great from all my reading.
But seeing the timeline if it's true is painful and disappointing to read.

 

[MannyDib]

3rd party tools are essential. A well documented official API is crucial for their success

I fully support this.
3rd party tools not only enhance but are often essential for Elite's playability. A well documented official API is crucial for the growth and maintenance of these tools

 

[c00ky1970]

I can understand the sentiment, but as said above this is a strike, so reacting to strikers requests sends a message to the wider community that this action can influence change.

So if they get a dev hotline, or just some reaction to the API, then other interest groups could ask for these sites to be taken down to support their plight of lack of cheese in the commodities market, or not enough earing options in Holo-Me.

Ideally some of the function that these 3rd party apps provide should really be brought in game, or become fdev managed web solutions that get aligned with the latest releases.

You also have to consider that these 3rd party apps are there due to the good will and dedicated spare time from an enthusiastic few. Artie only recently returned to Inara website and is starting to update and correct details with it in the last few weeks, if for real life reasons he has to stop it again that site can degrade. The same could happen to other toolsets, they are only there due to the generosity and dedication of these fans.

 

[Arkku]

Ah, so, you are saying it is sabotage/ransom/extortion! But its ok, because FD need to wake up?

If and only if the tools are considered important/desirable for the game, it can be seen as ransom/extortion. These are of course loaded words, but in some sense describe it. And it is ok, not because FD needs to wake up (which they do if they thought they can have it both ways and get free development from others and not support it in any way), but because no-one other than the developers/maintainers of those tools is in any way entitled to dictate what they can do with their tools/sites.

 

[snowball]

Good luck!

What would ED be without EDDB, EDSM, INARA or Coriolis.....? Less than half the fun! You have my support. Good luck!

 

[Monk]

You really should give it a whirl without tools.

I'd agree. Being a 3rd party tool user shouldn't become a crutch. While I still use them from time to time, you will find that some trade related things (especially sourcing commodities for missions or passenger requests) are possible with the in-game tools.

You still can't build a real multi-hop trade route in game though. And for that I happily load up EDDB.

 

[Soopyyy]

So quite a substantial amount of time has past and we've had a single tired "We're reeeallly sorry, but we do try to communicate super well....".

You can't keep the used car salesman grin going forever Frontier, get your act together.

 

[Jex =TE=]

They're a bit busy with other things right now. Things that affect the entire player base.

You don't know that. I think you mean the one guy left working on it are busy. Then you have a couple of people working on the PS4 port but most of the employees are working on the new movie game their making.

 

[stirl]

FD, I think I speak for everyone here when I say you should make the resolution of this issue your highest priority please!

Fond regards to all concerned,

CMDR stirl

 

[DiRaven]

Yup, a bit more help from the devs side (at least in a form of better communication) would be very nice...

 

[slum]

Reading through it seems what third party tools encourage most of all is laziness...pen and paper folks, that's how we did it in 1984!

Who uses pen a paper?

Real men commit everything to memory.

 

[Thalion Solarstorm]

Thanks for all the Tools.

As Dev myself i can understand your frustration but on the other hand its kind of a slap in FDevs Face - maybe deserved.

One thing that this Action shows tho is what is clearly lacking in the Game rightnow.

INARA provided a solid base for players to connect form wings and track progress along with vital Engineering data ( why you can only pin one blueprint and not see all of them ingame once unlocked for example is beyond me ).
Also why not like on Synthesis the missing data to every Material ( Used in Receipee by Engineer XY ) is in yet after the launch of another Major Patch boggles me aswell.

Then theres EDDB, why not finally Implement the Ship's Computer with Module Slots Autodocker, Tradecomputer etc. where we could keep track of Prices and Wares across so many Stations.
And then the Galactic Mapping project which is Genius and keeps me personally fascinated in Exploration and so on.

While the Game is playable without theese its like somone just stripped the Sound from the Game. When looking for where i can buy what Module or keep Track what Wares to get at which Location theese tools are invaluable.

I hope you get the Support needed to continue the great work and effort put into all theese. Personally a friend of mine and i were working on a Missionplanner which used some of them as Backend.

Best Luck to you and lets see what FDev makes from this.

Cheers!

 

[CMDR Heisenberg B. Damned]

Hmmm, about 3 hours 10 minute and 50 (+) pages already. That may say something even if it's only that opinion is highly divided. I suspect it's a bit deeper than that though.

 

[Jukelo]

Finding a juicy trade route is boring as hell. What "fun" is there in finding a trade route so you can boringly fly back and forth. Oh I just don't know if I can take that much fun!

What do you think brings a player the most excitement? Finding a 3k cr/ton route, or actually running that route for the Nth time? And considering how much Frontier likes to obfuscate information and how simplistic the gameplay loops are, what do you think they believe is the most important aspect of their game?

And remember this is very much a zero-sum game, so I'm certainly not going to start asking Frontier to divert their obviously limited resources towards more API support when so many mechanics are hopelessly shallow, when there is so much content missing or making no sense at all. How come so many people complain that we didn't need Powerplay or CQC, but apparently we need 3rd party tools? No, in the current state of the game, we don't. At least no 3rd party tool that requires more than we already have really.

 

[Old Duck]

I'm going to need some 3rd party tools just to keep up with this thread. #ExponentialGrowth