More occasions than you care to remember?
So, what colour IS the boat-house at Hearford?
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Griefers and Elite's Emerging Karma System
- Thread starter Delilah
- Start date
More occasions than you care to remember?
So, what colour IS the boat-house at Hearford?
Looks good so far. Seems like a solid system for gathering data, but it will live or die on whether the punishments really have any teeth or not. This will be easy to tell with other data gathering methods (the forums, Youtube) if and when this karma system is implemented.
Reading Sandro's remarks on that Reddit thread I find it interesting that the official Fdev stance on most PvP is that it's "undesirable." I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that's certainly the tone. Well, good luck with a c&p "karma" system Fdev, I hope you show more skill implementing that in a way that doesn't trigger a nuclear meltdown then you have tackling shield rebalancing
Implementation will certainly be key, but where do you get the idea that Sandro was thinking of pvp as undesirable, especially in open? I missed that.
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I can tell by your avatar you are/were a fellow Eve pilot. You know what I'm talking about.
I'm not the one saying "People get killed in wars so there's no reason to whine about people acting like tools in video games"
THAT is a low blow; which serves no purpose other than as an attempt at "grief top-trumps".
It's disrespectful to those involved and it certainly DOESN'T reflect the opinion of every person who's been part of real-life hardships.
Goose4291
Banned
I dont normally get serious in these discussions, because unlike Cosmos, I've reached the point where I find these coffee shop psychology discussions about peoples psyches based on the fact they shoot other people in a game, where its allowed by the mechanics, tragically hillarious.
But that comment was bang out of order shipmate.
First off it is false to say griefing is a subjective evaluation. Lots of good research on that subject, ethical and psychological. The claim of subjectivity is most often used as an excuse to brush aside a concern and not respond substantively to it. People as so used to hearing it and repeating it, however, that they don't often realize this.
Second, I think you are one the money that in a virtual world that allows pvp, we should have robust mechanisms for pilots to police themselves. Lots of fun, and keeps griefers at bay.
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For me, your point faltered when you brought up players killing player in CZs as a form of griefing. If there is any arena in the Elite Dangerous universe where player killing couldn't be more acceptable, it's within a CZ. Hell, I have videos of wing mates destroying players who stumbled into CZs with us and decided to shoot us. How could that be considered griefing in the slightest? Would you also consider CGs community events (assuming you're speaking more of events like what recently happened with Salome)? Hunting players supporting the rival faction during a CG is far from griefing as well, or imparting an RP blockade upon one or the myriad other reasons why PKs show up at large events.
I've encountered true griefing in video games, at least in comparison the tame events that happen here in Elite. Myself and many of the other players of this game have played the true griefers paradise known as EVE. I've been subject to repeated, targeted, months long harassment in that game just for my association within a specific player or corporation. Targeted by players who had an exponential advantage over me because of the way the progression system in that game is designed. Blown apart until I was broke and then hounded 24/7 by groups of coordinating players so that I couldn't leave the station to make more money via mining or seeking out NPC pirates to gather the bounties on. I've been run out of that game enough to the point where I stopped playing because there was no point in paying the monthly sub for a game I couldn't play and that was their goal the entire time.
True griefing doesn't really happen here in Elite. This community just likes to throw that word around like it's going to spur FDev into action.
You also continue to mention "research" but have failed to provide links to said research. Providing them would do wonders for supporting your argument.
Edit: I see above that, as I was writing this, you mentioned being an EVE player as well. How could you even begin to compare what happens here with actual targeted griefing?
More occasions than you care to remember?
So, what colour IS the boat-house at Hearford?
This honestly went over my head. Nice of you to poke fun at that though, which is what I'm assuming you're doing. Show your true colors to everyone else while you're at it.
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Having played online games for many many years.
I can say that if Elite do not address the problem, a large portion of their player base will go elsewhere, or just carry on not playing open.
Seen it happen quite a few times over the years.
I wont comment on if the (lets use the popular term) griefers are mentally ill in reality, as I do not see that it is relevant.
The only thing that interests me is will Fdev put a better CnP and Karma system in place.
Because atm Star Citizens CnP and Exploiter punishment systems look more geared to a far more Griefer and Exploiter free environment.
Currently you see someone Grief or Exploit in Elite and nothing gets done about it.
I can say that if Elite do not address the problem, a large portion of their player base will go elsewhere, or just carry on not playing open.
Seen it happen quite a few times over the years.
I wont comment on if the (lets use the popular term) griefers are mentally ill in reality, as I do not see that it is relevant.
The only thing that interests me is will Fdev put a better CnP and Karma system in place.
Because atm Star Citizens CnP and Exploiter punishment systems look more geared to a far more Griefer and Exploiter free environment.
Currently you see someone Grief or Exploit in Elite and nothing gets done about it.
I caught at me too. I often think if we were more substantive, more honest, more thoughtful, on the Forum, we would all be the better for it.
I've nothing further to add to any of this other than to say how dare people take a perfectly innocent word from the dictionary and abuse it for their own ends. Grief is something I wouldnt wish upon anyone, when you really do find that moment you will be in no doubt whatsoever, and it certainly wont be defined by a drivelling moment of 'loss' in a computer game.
Shame on all of you who think grief is an acceptable way to define actions you dont like in a computer game. My god..
*shakes head with sheer disdain*
Shame on all of you who think grief is an acceptable way to define actions you dont like in a computer game. My god..
*shakes head with sheer disdain*
Goose4291
Banned
Word.
I genuinely think some people who post here complaining about 'griefing' would be reaching for the razor blades if they experienced ten minutes of Ultima Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea or THAT OTHER SPACE GAME.
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Very clear, elegant, and to be honest, perfectly put. Really great job on the post! It might give some insight into this type of player for those who don't or can't understand their motives.
Great point. Additionally, the trolling the griefers often do is a window into their intentions -- data points to help Frontier figure out if the karma system is working.
I dont think anyone hear works for the Oxford dictionary.
Maybe send them a strongly worded letter
Pirates man.. you had to bring that up. >.< God that game was miserable until you could fight back.
I just refuse to accept that griefing, in the broad definition being used here, occurs in this game. If you are someone who is affected negatively by ship destruction at the hands of another human then there are wonderful ways to not have to deal with that.
Playing in Open is an Open invitation to either co-operation or hostilities. It is part of the game, whether you are in a sidey or an Imperial Cutter.
Now, on the matter of harassment, there may be something to talk about there. Players who hunt others only to kill the same one over and over and over...that's bullying/harassment. Though, i think many would agree that is a rare occurrence here.
Playing in Open is an Open invitation to either co-operation or hostilities. It is part of the game, whether you are in a sidey or an Imperial Cutter.
Now, on the matter of harassment, there may be something to talk about there. Players who hunt others only to kill the same one over and over and over...that's bullying/harassment. Though, i think many would agree that is a rare occurrence here.
TERMINATRIXXX
Banned
The Salome event was announced as PvP event or am i wrong?
Fight for or against, most likely again human players.
Miss the griefing part.
CG's can be done in every game mode if you dislike other CMDR's.
Karma system and tracking telemetry is coming.
Even a simple system will certainly help but it needs good testing.
Because, from my experience, there is always a way to manipulate it.
Fight for or against, most likely again human players.
Miss the griefing part.
CG's can be done in every game mode if you dislike other CMDR's.
Karma system and tracking telemetry is coming.
Even a simple system will certainly help but it needs good testing.
Because, from my experience, there is always a way to manipulate it.
That's because there wasn't any. HP got lucky and fooled the right people for his chance to take out Salome which is supposed to be a possible outcome of the entire event.
Everyone calling it griefing were just people who didn't approve of Salome getting killed or the person getting the kill on Salome.
While I understand where you're coming from, real life psychology CANNOT be ignored when analysing in-game interactions, no matter how much some may think one can. The fact is that ALL multiplayer games involve player-to-player interactions - and while that interaction may be through a collection of pixels representing some form of avatar in an online game, and thus disconnected from our real world, there remains a real human being at both ends of that interaction. A human being that is nonetheless emotionally impacted by the outcomes of that interaction. That emotion can come in many forms. What we must always remember is that because the online environment depersonalises the experience (you typically can't see, or always hear, the person at the other end), you don't have the usual cues to trigger your own empathy for the other person that may temper your behaviour towards that person - to you it's just another set of pixels on a screen. But as a result you also have no idea what that other person's state may be - you cannot know whether your actions may indeed have real world implications for that person. And as the regular issues surrounding online bullying, for example, demonstrate, online interactions can indeed have very serious ramifications, very much in the real world and involving real life psychological considerations. That said, I don't think your average griefer cares about that, but it doesn't diminish that truth.
I would also add that there is indeed grief in video games - although not to the same degree as in real life nor with the same ramifications, I would agree. I can tell you the emotions after the 'death' of Salome were very much akin to grief for some, even given there is a real difference between the death of a character and a real person. The emotion was very, very similar, I can assure you.
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Goose4291
Banned
So, what colour IS the boat-house at Hearford?
As Deadspins a filthy Colonial jarhead, he's unlikely to know that.
And it's Hereford.