Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[GG7]

Oh noes.

Players will have to be accountable for their actions, the horror!

Ditto.

The only players that have a problem with this... ARE the PROBLEM.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Consequences aren't really what people are asking for,

Really? We must be reading completely different forum threads.

... well except for me and a small minority that actually seem to care about verisimilitude.

Amen. I have argued for verisimilitude, logical consistency, believability, and just plain common sense since I started playing. I won't drag up all of the posts I've made on that subject.

Importantly, I see the karma system as providing just that, since any civilised society (and I realise not all parts of the bubble are civilised) has at least a modicum of legislated C&P, and almost every organisation (eg. Pilot's Federation) will have in-house rules, regulations and codes of conduct.

I've gotten the distinct impression people are advocating a karma system because they think they such a system will keep their CMDRs from being subject to arbitrary attacks. The consequences are really neither here nor there.

Perhaps you have the wrong impression. Take me for example. I would love to become an Outlaw, but up until now there's no in-game support for this. So what do some people do instead? They grief, they gank, they become hobo murderers. There's no incentive for me to do that now because there's no consequences and no danger. It's mindless killing at other player's expense with absolutely NO IN GAME REASON to do it. It's relegated to the douches and sociopaths.

I want Open to be MUCH MORE DANGEROUS. I want to be an outlaw. I want to have a karma rank of Notorious, or Infamous. I want missions that ask me to raid into a high sec system for BIG REWARDS, outlaw level booty, knowing that at any second I could get killed by either the security forces or other players who see my notoriety.

This is what the Karma system has the ability to provide. Real player driven gameplay and roleplay, supported by new rank and new missions.

It's a huge opportunity for FDev, an opportunity that up until now has been lost.

 

[Martian Successor]

My own thoughts on crime and consequences from a previous thread that got locked:

Well the point surely must be that if you are a rampaging murderer and otherwise ne'er do well the only places where you will have access to stations is in Anarchy systems and/or some well hidden pirate bases - what better way to use the new asteroid base design

The point shouldn't be that suddenly the entire game becomes unplayable for people who kill other players because quite frankly that would be even worse game design than the current lack of consequences. Let players be able to kill other players for no reason but let there be actual meaningful consequences for doing this kind of thing. Wanna murder victims all throughout known space? Okay, but then you pay the price for that; you can forget about using stations in anything but an Anarchy system and pirate bases.

In my opinion, this is how it should go for Anarchy:
You can kill whoever you want in Anarchy systems and no authority vessels will come a calling BUT your crimes will still be noted by the Pilot's Federation (especially when you kill other PF memebers) and bounty hunters will be sent into Anarchy systems after you. Perhaps even whole teams of Elite bounty hunters in Condas and Ferdies if you gain enough of a negative rep - really give those who like murdering a proper role-play response as well as a challenging fight, since they've shown they like fighting. It would certainly separate the real apex PvP killers out there from the weak kneed combat loggers who only pick fights they think they can win and love to gank Noobwinders in their fortress ship.

The former will start hanging out in Anarchy systems and pirate bases, occasionally striking out (thus mostly freeing up the lawful parts of space like Engineer bases, etc.) and will be quite happy with being periodically challenged by other PvP minded players and groups of Elite NPC hunter/killers. The latter will cry home to mommy after eating a rebuy or just get so bored of pulling the plug every time they get interdicted that they'll grow bored , pay a ton to fix up their rep and maybe rethink their playstyle.

Or just give pirates places to call home such as Pirate bases where selling stolen goods is more profitable and offers a haven for pirate players. Perhaps in certain systems that feature pirate bases the security response can be reversed so that it actively interdicts and attacks 'clean' ships, i.e. bounty hunters, traders - when crossing these systems traders should always be notified before they make the jump and should plan to be in them for the shortest time possible, i.e. as soon as you can jump out again you should.

Thus we enrich the game, rather than continue to stagnate.

---------------------------

And the best solutions I've read recently on crime, consequences and a karma system:

Spoiler

Apologizes to all if my comments look a little worked up but I would be lieing if I said they where not, given how long it can take the engineer a ship to perfection is just so much time lost I would leave this game. or at least go find some other game to play and set about gaming the system as best I could, but the other comments Sandro has put out rub me the wrong way for sure... making comments confirming that player killers could be banned is just a pathetic excuse for poor game mechanics.

To at least contribute to this thread I will lay out my idea for how to fix C&P while using what we currently have.

I will start by saying a karma system will never work, it will be gamed far to easy and will result in players we normal kill suffering even more than now.

To "Fix" this C&P system this is how the galaxy should look. In general a MMO style difficulty system.

- 5 Levels of security in total, each system is given a level based on surrounding systems, anything below 2 is classed as lawless.
An example of some systems out flat.

[1][1][2][1][2][1][1][1]
[1][3][3][3][2][1][1][1]
[2][3][4][5][3][4][1][1]
[1][3][4][5][4][5][3][2]
[1][1][4][3][4][3][2][1]
[1][3][2][2][2][3][2][1]
[2][2][1][1][1][2][1][1]


Levels 1 to 2 - Lawless space

These systems allow players to kill each other without consequence, like our current system with lawless systems, further these systems feature increased NPC pirate and murder activity but also offer higher rewards on missions.

Level 3 Lawful space, border systems

System Security Stats:
Security response: Less than 3 sec
Security: Current response load outs with engineered drives.
Amount of ships in response: Current response amount.

These systems have some law and order, killing or attacking players yields a small bounty to the player. if a player is killed then the attacker is no longer allowed to dock in this system for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped(death etc).

This will allow players to attack systems all they like but prevents docking and forces an attack to plan their attack and stage elsewhere promoting some planning and thinking before an attack could take place, if such planning was not taken then the attack would be short lived.

Level 4 and 5 - High security systems

System Security Stats:
Security response time: Instant
Security: Ships with engineered weapons and defenses
Amount of ships in response: Depends on security 4 or 5

These are the systems players like me should be afraid of, killing a player here should result in the attacker being killed or at least made extremely difficult to get away. Failing that the rebuy of the attacker is doubled until they die. should the player get away from the security the system will be locked off for them for 7 days or until the bounty is wiped. We know permit locks work... why not use it here.

This is the safe systems player can use when they would normally use Solo mode, there would still be chance of getting killed as always but your attacker would never in anyway getaway with it. Credits made in these systems would be lower than the other security levels.

Killing players here should be a one way trip to the rebuy screen. Simple as that.

A small UI tweak to add the security level of the system to remind players and warn those in systems they would prefer not to be, such as when traveling.

On a final note: This system is simple enough and black and white enough that it will catch all players no matter if they are murder hobo or small time player killer or trader. this system will ensure safety in core world while offering the true blaze your own trail in system level 3 and down.

---------------------------

Just because he wants to play a game without griefers, doesn't mean he's capable of making such a game. Can't watch the video right now (at work), but I wonder what Roberts said - he's got far more effective anti-griefing mechanics in his buggy alpha than Braben's finished Rev.2 game does.

Edit: I figure someone's going to ask what those are, so here we go (there may be more, I typically don't play as a bad guy so I might be missing some):

- The game implements no-fire zones as places where your guns don't work at all
- Players have a crime stat that goes up when you attack someone, the only way to make it go down is to go to a special security space station and hack a terminal. Everyone knows about this, so that station is a popular pvp spot.
- Even if you decide to stick with your crime stat, the person with the worst stat is tagged as "public enemy" and shows up on everyone's radar, with a mission to kill him.
- If you have any bad rep at all and you get killed, you respawn at Grim Hex, a bandit base which is far from the lawful bases and unmarked on the map - still with your bad rep, there's no suicidey trick here. This base has similar facilities as the lawful ones, and it looks like a bandit base should as well.

Those go a fair way towards guiding the more aggressive players towards being "legit" outlaws rather than a nuisance to the other players. I see absolutely no reason why FDev can't implement something similar.

Any criminal activity should remain on the character and not be able to be wiped out quickly. This should also be a two way street. Criminals get persecuted in High Sec systems and Good guys get jumped in Anarchy space.

Completely agree - PF members being essentially immortal is part of the lore, so it makes no sense that the legal system would pretend that spaceship destruction means death and so a clean slate. What I really like about the way that SC does it is that cleaning your legal status is handled in-game in a way that encourages PvP - of the people you meet in the security outpost, 99.9% of them will be either criminals or bounty hunters. And if you get killed while resetting your status (which means being a sitting duck for a number of seconds that depends on that status), you have to fly there all over again. That's quite a disincentive to casual ganking, you have to be committed to PKing (as in, doing it for profit or some better motive than lulz).

Oh yeah, something I forgot - in space away from the big stations, crimes get detected if there's an active security satellite nearby. These can be disabled by flying there and pressing a button, which immediately sends out a repair mission to everyone on the server, but gives you a few minutes (until some other player shows up and fixes the satellite) to do any killing you want to. So again, if you're playing an assassin you can give yourself a time window to do your deed scot-free (or pirate groups can coordinate so one group attacks ships while another prevents the satellite from being brought back online) but it's another roadblock to casual ganking. It's a very interesting twist on the idea of compromised nav beacons.



I can totally live with PK'ers choosing to stay in solo

 

[ranje]

Ditto.

The only players that have a problem with this... ARE the PROBLEM.

Oh we are back to that after 25 pages. Hopeless community on this forum...:S
At least i myself did not speak up against consequences, and i did not see many doing so. But because i am against a karma system, of course i must be against consequences?! Keep on making things up.

The question is what kind of consequences, because the peace loving part of the community would love to see any player killer hang low, be stripped of his assets, locked into prison, because they are all bad people, most likely also in real life. That thinking will always stay in their heads. They do ignore how the game is actually advertised, and plays, from the very beginning and whine about it being to harsh. Then blame the whining on the guy who says he does not feel a karma system is required, and admits that yet some changes must be done to make pvp encounters a bit more fair, give the whelps some protection. For the hardliners only a Karma system that includes harsh penalties will do, they feed on Sandros idea like the flies on a donkeys droppings. Although it is just theory, and the experience teaches us that most likely such a system will not help the situation a lot.

The thread only was against the karma system as intended, as there would be options that suit this game much better. Some serious and maybe even viable suggestions have been made. Some absurd ones as well. At least, we should have a bit of experience how frontier handles things... and that most likely a very hard system is never gonna make it through, yet probably something will be changed will eventually calm down both sides a bit. It is not likely that any of the hardliner ideas will make it through to the game, and ED will not turn suddenly in something totally different, and probably also not carebear. But go on, it is almost to good to stop right here....[haha]

 

[jasonbarron]

Ditto.

The only players that have a problem with this... ARE the PROBLEM.

Incorrect. Accepting that Sandro's recent Reddit conversation was just a stew of ideas/thoughts he was chewing on, it's clear what the drift of his thinking is nevertheless. And the people who are concerned, such as myself and Morbad, are NOT part of the problem as you opine. For instance, I joined AA to patrol Eravate and help curtail some of the noob slaughter that goes on there. The people who go in for the noob slaughter are doing it in Cutters & Corvettes with highly engineered shields and weapons, and in just a couple days I've almost lost my own FdL a dozen times. While I think noob clubbing, especially for the purpose of recruiting for a certain high profile PG, is pretty much the bottom of the ecological food chain, the fact that it exists actually gives a group such as AA a concrete purpose to exist in the first place.

In other words, my standing up for the rights of gankers and various PKers has nothing to do with wanting to be one myself, but rather if they were effectively removed from the game I would have no one left to fight against, and therefore 90% of the reason I play this game would be gone. I offer this not to argue with you, but to illuminate a point you are not thinking about.

It's clear to me that what the majority of the community wants is a system that literally drives PKers out of business, and Sandro is heavily swayed by this as one would expect; it just makes fiscal sense. But just take a moment to consider that Fdev cant even balance shields or gimbaled tracking because of the uproar such rebalancing would cause--c&p is going to be much harder to balance by wide margin, so I'm not really convinced its ever going to come to fruition.

Just to be clear: not everyone who is cynical about a c&p system is a griefer/ganker as the community so enjoys labeling them.

 

[lenna]

The thread only was against the karma system as intended, as there would be options that suit this game much better.

The Karma system is not a whole solution to the underlying issues in themselves and it is not all about penalising all PK incidents, talk about hyberbole.

The Karma system in itself is basically an automated moderation system of sorts. Those that want to engage in criminal like gameplay will probably gain something from the lesser and supplemental measures. The more extreme automated mechanics are really intended to handle those that take things too far, and if that is not enough I am sure the Shadowban option will still be available for FD to wield as a manual intervention stick when deemed necessary.

People who engage in extremely poor karma activities involving other players should expect to be monitored closely, that may mean that certain glory hounds may finally get a long overdue muzzle fitted either temporarily or permanently.

 

[Roybe]

Bad actors have bad karma...what's the problem...oh wait...there are no consequences now for bad behavior!

Suck it up buttercup! You wanna play the bad man...you gotta pay the police. Bad karma will be a badge of honor for those that want to play the bad guys!

 

[Sandmann]

Bad actors have bad karma...what's the problem...oh wait...there are no consequences now for bad behavior!

Suck it up buttercup! You wanna play the bad man...you gotta pay the police. Bad karma will be a badge of honor for those that want to play the bad guys!

... for those wbo genuinley are RPing a bad guy at least. Most aren't... they just use it as justification for being ats.

 

[lenna]

In other words, my standing up for the rights of gankers and various PKers has nothing to do with wanting to be one myself, but rather if they were effectively removed from the game I would have no one left to fight against, and therefore 90% of the reason I play this game would be gone. I offer this not to argue with you, but to illuminate a point you are not thinking about.

IMO while your current activities are noble, they should not be necessary. If dealing with the gankers (and comparable extremely anti-social PvP behaviours) involves depriving you of your targets then you will just have to find other activities. I am sure that there are still going to be truly challenging criminal opponents (those actually with skills rather than being simply weak minded bullies) for you to combat.

On the other hand, ED is not primarily a PvP title so if any individuals focus on gameplay is PvP centric then perhaps they are playing the wrong game anyway.

 

[ArchEmperor]

We are now constructing the Karma reward lists. Name your ideas for rewarding high rank karma players.

I suggest that the highest ranking bad karma players need to get the best Ganking weapons.
And the highest ranking good karma players need to get their Hello Kitty ship kits.

But can we give them more?

What about. Hello Kitty players produce salt cargo as they are being ganked, which can be scooped up by the Griefers?

A special kind of salt: Tear Salt 1T. Very valuable stuff.

 

[jasonbarron]

IMO while your current activities are noble, they should not be necessary. If dealing with the gankers (and comparable extremely anti-social PvP behaviours) involves depriving you of your targets then you will just have to find other activities. I am sure that there are still going to be truly challenging criminal opponents (those actually with skills rather than being simply weak minded bullies) for you to combat.

On the other hand, ED is not primarily a PvP title so if any individuals focus on gameplay is PvP centric then perhaps they are playing the wrong game anyway.

I wasn't looking for praise, simply pointing out to the poster I quoted that his reasoning was flawed. The inference being that a c&p karma system is being guided by people with his intolerant viewpoint.

Speaking of intolerance, I especially like that last comment of yours. I've got over 2500 hours playing this game with achievements in every area the game has to offer; I don't need anybody telling me whether I'm playing the right game or not. Intolerance is what is carrying the day when it comes to the discussion of karma.

 

[Robert Maynard]

We are now constructing the Karma reward lists. Name your ideas for rewarding high rank karma players.

I suggest that the highest ranking bad karma players need to get the best Ganking weapons.
And the highest ranking good karma players need to get their Hello Kitty ship kits.

But can we give them more?

What about. Hello Kitty players produce salt cargo as they are being ganked, which can be scooped up by the Griefers?

A special kind of salt: Tear Salt 1T. Very valuable stuff.

Duh - Hello Kitty kits would render ships that fitted them invulnerable to "the best Ganking weapons", making the production of salt unnecessary....

 

[Robert Maynard]

Speaking of intolerance, I especially like that last comment of yours. I've got over 2500 hours playing this game with achievements in every area the game has to offer; I don't need anybody telling me whether I'm playing the right game or not. Intolerance is what is carrying the day when it comes to the discussion of karma.

Except, this time, it's Frontier that are expressing an opinion regarding what is not acceptable behaviour - their game, their rules....

 

[[VR] Merkir]

In other words, my standing up for the rights of gankers and various PKers has nothing to do with wanting to be one myself, but rather if they were effectively removed from the game I would have no one left to fight against, and therefore 90% of the reason I play this game would be gone. I offer this not to argue with you, but to illuminate a point you are not thinking about.

I would ask you to have a little more foresight. If implemented properly, a karma system can provide the framework to allow players to legitimately take on the role of Outlaw, thereby bringing a huge number of extra PvPers into Open. Outlaws would by definition be wanted, and therefore wanted vs wanted PKs would sky-rocket.

It's up to us to guide Sandro in his thinking so that he sees the full potential of what the karma system can bring.

 

[BL1P]

We are now constructing the Karma reward lists. Name your ideas for rewarding high rank karma players.

I suggest that the highest ranking bad karma players need to get the best Ganking weapons.
And the highest ranking good karma players need to get their Hello Kitty ship kits.

But can we give them more?

What about. Hello Kitty players produce salt cargo as they are being ganked, which can be scooped up by the Griefers?

A special kind of salt: Tear Salt 1T. Very valuable stuff.

They would need to be appropriate Rewards. So nothing Adult in nature, No alcohol etc etc.
Hmm...
Some weekend tickets (so as not to interrupt school) to a Zoo with extra tickets for the parents ?
Im unsure what young kids like these days ?
Oh oh some book vouchers and maybe tickets to a cinema or theater ?

Not sure what Hello Kitty is but yer sure keep that as is for the non griefers.

 

[Stealthie]

Incorrect. Accepting that Sandro's recent Reddit conversation was just a stew of ideas/thoughts he was chewing on, it's clear what the drift of his thinking is nevertheless. And the people who are concerned, such as myself and Morbad, are NOT part of the problem as you opine. For instance, I joined AA to patrol Eravate and help curtail some of the noob slaughter that goes on there. The people who go in for the noob slaughter are doing it in Cutters & Corvettes with highly engineered shields and weapons, and in just a couple days I've almost lost my own FdL a dozen times. While I think noob clubbing, especially for the purpose of recruiting for a certain high profile PG, is pretty much the bottom of the ecological food chain, the fact that it exists actually gives a group such as AA a concrete purpose to exist in the first place.

In other words, my standing up for the rights of gankers and various PKers has nothing to do with wanting to be one myself, but rather if they were effectively removed from the game I would have no one left to fight against, and therefore 90% of the reason I play this game would be gone. I offer this not to argue with you, but to illuminate a point you are not thinking about.

It's clear to me that what the majority of the community wants is a system that literally drives PKers out of business, and Sandro is heavily swayed by this as one would expect; it just makes fiscal sense. But just take a moment to consider that Fdev cant even balance shields or gimbaled tracking because of the uproar such rebalancing would cause--c&p is going to be much harder to balance by wide margin, so I'm not really convinced its ever going to come to fruition.

Just to be clear: not everyone who is cynical about a c&p system is a griefer/ganker as the community so enjoys labeling them.

So why would you be skeptical about a system that would (if it works) curtail the sort of things you feel compelled to fight against?

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to indulge in PvP activity.
If the system worked and the "seal clubbing" became less of a problem you could turn your attention to other, consentual, forms of PvP.

 

[jasonbarron]

I would ask you to have a little more foresight. If implemented properly, a karma system can provide the framework to allow players to legitimately take on the role of Outlaw, thereby bringing a huge number of extra PvPers into Open. Outlaws would by definition be wanted, and therefore wanted vs wanted PKs would sky-rocket.

It's up to us to guide Sandro in his thinking so that he sees the full potential of what the karma system can bring.

I applaud your optimism, and if this is a possible future then I'll be on board with it. But one thing this forum has drummed into me in the last almost two years: cynicism when it comes to the subject of PvP. And frankly, I interpreted Sandro's words in a pretty negative (towards PvP) light.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And frankly, I interpreted Sandro's words in a pretty negative (towards PvP) light.

Some PvP no doubt - the kind of PvP that Frontier would seem to consider to be detrimental to enjoyment of the game for many players.

 

[SkipRat]

Except, this time, it's Frontier that are expressing an opinion regarding what is not acceptable behaviour - their game, their rules....

I refuse to accept that is actually their game... It could very easily be argued that the kick starters can have small say that this is there game... They are the ones who stumped up the cash to get the game started... When, at the time, David Braben stood on stage or whatever at the EGX (about 3 years ago) and he said that player actions should have consequences... People stumped up cash, got the game started, then they sold out the people who invested during the kick started and the game he originally sold the people at the start.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I applaud your optimism, and if this is a possible future then I'll be on board with it. But one thing this forum has drummed into me in the last almost two years: cynicism when it comes to the subject of PvP. And frankly, I interpreted Sandro's words in a pretty negative (towards PvP) light.

I hardly feel optimistic. I'm pessimistic that the game is dying because the griefers and gankers are forcing more and more out of open. There's a reason Mobius is growing.

Surely Sandro isn't blind and can see the same thing and would prefer to work with the MAJORITY of the player base to bring a framework for PvP in the form of an Outlaw archetype. If done properly, that Outlaw archetype will largely (not entirely) need to leave clean commanders alone due to the consequences (that's the Karma system) but at the same time also benefit from the PvP framework constructed to allow Outlaw missions, direct PvP to maintain their notoriety, etc. (again provided by the Karma system). I can envisage exactly how it might work, but forums are an awful place to try to convince people or show them details.