Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[Han_Zen]

Again... game difficulty has ZERO to do with the undesirable PvP behaviours. Combat rebalancing is not even close to addressing the underlying problem that a karma system is intended to address.

It is not rocket science.

As I said, the Karma system seem to also deal with regular killing of clean commanders. This is something that should be handled by the C&P system.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

As I said, the Karma system seem to also deal with regular killing of clean commanders. This is something that should be handled by the C&P system.

The way I see it working is that the Karma system doesn't "deal with regular killing of clean commanders". It's only a rating of the pilot's behaviour. So "regular killing of clean commanders" will, over time, reduce that pilot's karma.

It's the C&P system that will "deal" with that pilot depending on a range of factors including: their current karma, where they are, what they're doing, etc.

The Karma system and the C&P system are separate, but need to be designed carefully to work together effectively.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ef it.

Delete at will.

 

[lenna]

The way I see it working is that the Karma system doesn't "deal with regular killing of clean commanders". It's only a rating of the pilot's behaviour. So "regular killing of clean commanders" will, over time, reduce that pilot's karma.

It's the C&P system that will "deal" with that pilot depending on a range of factors including: their current karma, where they are, what they're doing, etc.

The Karma system and the C&P system are separate, but need to be designed carefully to work together effectively.

Exactly, rebalancing is important but it has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

 

[Han_Zen]

The way I see it working is that the Karma system doesn't "deal with regular killing of clean commanders". It's only a rating of the pilot's behaviour. So "regular killing of clean commanders" will, over time, reduce that pilot's karma.

It's the C&P system that will "deal" with that pilot depending on a range of factors including: their current karma, where they are, what they're doing, etc.

The Karma system and the C&P system are separate, but need to be designed carefully to work together effectively.

It all depends on what you view as negative behaviorist, I guess?

 

[-Denali-]

I'm glad they're coming up with a system to deal with malicious at station ramming. I'm also glad that it will apply to players who are just reckless too. Docking for the CG pointed out the need of that to me.

As I said, the Karma system seem to also deal with regular killing of clean commanders. This is something that should be handled by the C&P system.

I couldn't agree more about this. Making pirating and killing a part of Karma instead of fixing C&P is a mistake. Killing should give a time based wanted status that isn't cleared by death. That's a start at least (but not enough). It shouldn't be compared to ramming players at a dock or combat logging though.

 

[lenna]

Making pirating and killing a part of Karma instead of fixing C&P is a mistake.

This is a false assumption, the karma mechanic would only be PART of the end solution. C&P changes would almost certainly be included with a final solution involving a karma system.

 

[-Denali-]

This is a false assumption, the karma mechanic would only be PART of the end solution. C&P changes would almost certainly be included with a final solution involving a karma system.

And I'm saying karma should be reserved for actions that subvert intended game mechanics... like combat logging and suicide in a sidewinder so the station kills the person you rammed. Simply killing someone with guns should strictly be C&P. It's not an assumption that they should have different roles, just my opinion. I really have no idea what they'll come up with, just that they have mentioned killing players as a karmic act. Where is the assumption in that?

 

[lenna]

And I'm saying karma should be reserved for actions that subvert intended game mechanics... like combat logging and suicide in a sidewinder so the station kills the person you rammed. Simply killing someone with guns should strictly be C&P. It's not an assumption that they should have different roles, just my opinion. I really have no idea what they'll come up with, just that they have mentioned killing players as a karmic act. Where is the assumption in that?

And yet there are many that do not agree with your perspective. Basically, the short version is your standpoint is tantamount to being a griefer/ganker apologist.

Any C&P system will not deal with the more excessive PvP behaviours without a supplemental support system like the proposed karma system, and since ED is NOT intended to be a PvP combat focused game a karma system would be completely in-line with maintaining the original design intent.

No doubt there will be some exclusions to the PvP behaviours such as when two players are on opposite sides of the battle in a CZ but the exceptions are mostly always going to be reserved for situations where the target CMDR has opted into the combat activity (and no - simply playing in Open does not count).

 

[DaveB]

...Making pirating and killing a part of Karma instead of fixing C&P is a mistake...

But that's not the plan. Of course pirating and killing will be handled by the C&P mechanic, as they are now although I do agree with you that it urgently needs fixing. Each individual crime attracts consequences appropriate for that crime.

The only place a karma system would come into play is to permit the game to respond to patterns of behavior, not individual actions. While this may affect how harshly a C&P system responds, it's never going to make C&P respond without you committing a crime to trigger it, or stop C&P responding if you do. And if FD see fit for behaviors outside the C&P remit, such as CL-ing, to be part of ones karma then that's fine too.

Even if your karma is in the toilet so badly that every NPC, station and faction in the game is saying "If he puts a single foot wrong, I'll have him!" you'll still have to put that foot wrong to bring the world crashing down on your head. Karma will only moderate how the game behaves towards you, it wont (or at least shouldn't) carry any specific immediate "punishment" like explicitly committing a crime and triggering the C&P mechanics do.

 

[-Denali-]

And yet there are many that do not agree with your perspective. Basically, the short version is your standpoint is tantamount to being a griefer/ganker apologist.

Any C&P system will not deal with the more excessive PvP behaviours without a supplemental support system like the proposed karma system, and since ED is NOT intended to be a PvP combat focused game a karma system would be completely in-line with maintaining the original design intent.

No doubt there will be some exclusions to the PvP behaviours such as when two players are on opposite sides of the battle in a CZ but the exceptions are mostly always going to be reserved for situations where the target CMDR has opted into the combat activity (and no - simply playing in Open does not count).

Did I say my opinion was anything more than my opinion? I don't like griefers who kill without reason. I do like proper pirates, someone who makes a demand. Even proper pirates find themselves killing from time to time. That should be the line between karma and c&p. There might not be a perfect solution but I think the distinction should be maintained. I don't like hate speech but I still believe in free speech. They are not wonderfully conducive viewpoints but they exist all the same.

Your view is that ED is not a pvp game. That is your view. It is not suggested or supported by game mechanics which leave the choice to the player (open, private, solo). Stating otherwise is completely contrary to all observable fact. For the love of god, power play encourages killing for no other reason than someone is "hostile". Any claim that pvp isn't intended is just blind denial of fact. Can you not buy hatch breaker limpets? Can you not turn crime reporting off to duel? CQC isn't a part of ED? We have guns right? In the history of gaming has there ever been a game where players who weren't on a team were placed in an area together with weapons and weren't expected to shoot each other? Please name this game. That's just wishful thinking. ED is not 1984 Elite.

But that's not the plan. Of course pirating and killing will be handled by the C&P mechanic, as they are now although I do agree with you that it urgently needs fixing. Each individual crime attracts consequences appropriate for that crime.

The only place a karma system would come into play is to permit the game to respond to patterns of behavior, not individual actions. While this may affect how harshly a C&P system responds, it's never going to make C&P respond without you committing a crime to trigger it, or stop C&P responding if you do. And if FD see fit for behaviors outside the C&P remit, such as CL-ing, to be part of ones karma then that's fine too.

Even if your karma is in the toilet so badly that every NPC, station and faction in the game is saying "If he puts a single foot wrong, I'll have him!" you'll still have to put that foot wrong to bring the world crashing down on your head. Karma will only moderate how the game behaves towards you, it wont (or at least shouldn't) carry any specific immediate "punishment" like explicitly committing a crime and triggering the C&P mechanics do.

I think pirating and being an outlaw should be an occupation, like mining and trading. They should have different ranks since the PF frowns on it. Someone mentioned needing to buy fake ship ID's to land in non-anarchy systems. Black markets not readily available everywhere. Hatch breaker limpets not available everywhere. Murder should mean major faction wide wanted status and a real clock. 7 days for each kill, no reset on death. Or maybe each murder should increase the wanted status in LY from location, doubling each kill. There are options that still create interesting game play without excluding such play. I do think it has a place in the ED universe. Without the chance to be killed by a player, why play in open at all? Mobius is a fine option!

My opinion is that the punishments for horrible Karma should be more severe and less RP oriented than just committing crime. Maybe people with bad Karma shouldn't be allowed to wing together, should be less likely to get instanced together (so they don't show up in hordes just to troll founders world for a night (or month) ((or eternity))). Maybe the game could check for things like a cargo rack, cargo scanner and hatch breaker limpet before deciding murder is bad karma or just crime? There are options and they should be considered.

But that's just my feeling. I happen to like the danger open presents and don't want to see it go away. There are other ways to play for people who dislike that.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well sort of demonstrates what the problem here is. I'd be up for a reasonable compromise but you are not.

How so?

If the choice is binary (i.e. a mode exists and affects the single shared galaxy state or does not) there is no reasonable compromise position.

Given that all three game modes were published as part of the game design, at the same time, along with the single shared galaxy state, why does anyone need to compromise?

 

[jasonbarron]

Did I say my opinion was anything more than my opinion? I don't like griefers who kill without reason. I do like proper pirates, someone who makes a demand. Even proper pirates find themselves killing from time to time. That should be the line between karma and c&p. There might not be a perfect solution but I think the distinction should be maintained. I don't like hate speech but I still believe in free speech. They are not wonderfully conducive viewpoints but they exist all the same.

Your view is that ED is not a pvp game. That is your view. It is not suggested or supported by game mechanics which leave the choice to the player (open, private, solo). Stating otherwise is completely contrary to all observable fact. For the love of god, power play encourages killing for no other reason than someone is "hostile". Any claim that pvp isn't intended is just blind denial of fact. Can you not buy hatch breaker limpets? Can you not turn crime reporting off to duel? CQC isn't a part of ED? We have guns right? In the history of gaming has there ever been a game where players who weren't on a team were placed in an area together with weapons and weren't expected to shoot each other? Please name this game. That's just wishful thinking. ED is not 1984 Elite.



I think pirating and being an outlaw should be an occupation, like mining and trading. They should have different ranks since the PF frowns on it. Someone mentioned needing to buy fake ship ID's to land in non-anarchy systems. Black markets not readily available everywhere. Hatch breaker limpets not available everywhere. Murder should mean major faction wide wanted status and a real clock. 7 days for each kill, no reset on death. Or maybe each murder should increase the wanted status in LY from location, doubling each kill. There are options that still create interesting game play without excluding such play. I do think it has a place in the ED universe. Without the chance to be killed by a player, why play in open at all? Mobius is a fine option!

My opinion is that the punishments for horrible Karma should be more severe and less RP oriented than just committing crime. Maybe people with bad Karma shouldn't be allowed to wing together, should be less likely to get instanced together (so they don't show up in hordes just to troll founders world for a night (or month) ((or eternity))). Maybe the game could check for things like a cargo rack, cargo scanner and hatch breaker limpet before deciding murder is bad karma or just crime? There are options and they should be considered.

But that's just my feeling. I happen to like the danger open presents and don't want to see it go away. There are other ways to play for people who dislike that.

For pirating to have "teeth" there has to be consequences, namely ship destruction on non-compliance. How would it be possible to have an effective karma system that doesn't condemn an action such as this? It seems like people want the karma system to be able to read people's minds.

 

[-Denali-]

For pirating to have "teeth" there has to be consequences, namely ship destruction on non-compliance. How would it be possible to have an effective karma system that doesn't condemn an action such as this?

Like I said in the post you quoted, make a clear difference between a pirate (someone in a ship with a cargo rack, cargo scanner, and hatch breaker) and a griefing murder (someone just fitted to kill for the fun of it).

If it turns out that can't be done than I'd rather see murder be strictly C&P, because it should be a potential part of the game. Yeah, griefer could just fit those things and kill. Nothing's perfect and at least they'll be in weaker builds for it. There aren't perfect solutions to every problem because people are... Doesn't mean we should all be forced to take our balls and go home. C&P doesn't have to be without teeth either.

 

[Mohrgan]

Why should a Pirate be expected to get a free ride because of 'Educational' murders? It's still murder. If over time, as a pirate, you can't seem to get on without murder, a Notoriety system would step in, but for one murder here and there, you should be fine. Piracy is a path you can take, but there is no promise that it would be without consequences. Who do these pirates think they are? A public service?

 

[lenna]

Your view is that ED is not a pvp game.

Again you are (apparently) half reading things...

I never said it was not a PvP game, I said it was not a PvP combat focused game - there is a palpable distinction between the two and as much has been said by FD in the past... IIRC FD have always stuck by the principle of PvP intended to be "rare and meaningful", that is not the kind of thing you say about a PvP combat focused game.

As has been said by several people in this thread, the karma system would primarily monitor and measure patterns of individuals' behaviours in reality. The karma system would have supporting mechanics probably primarily focused around the C&P system which would notionally be modified.

Unless you are a habitual griefer or ganker, you almost certainly have nothing to fear from the proposed karma system. I would not be misled into thinking the proposed karma system is intended to be anything like a dark-side/light-side or renegade/paragon type system.

EDIT: Probably the closest analogy to the proposed karma system is the points system on real world driving licenses.

 

[Han_Zen]

But that's not the plan. Of course pirating and killing will be handled by the C&P mechanic, as they are now although I do agree with you that it urgently needs fixing. Each individual crime attracts consequences appropriate for that crime.

The only place a karma system would come into play is to permit the game to respond to patterns of behavior, not individual actions. While this may affect how harshly a C&P system responds, it's never going to make C&P respond without you committing a crime to trigger it, or stop C&P responding if you do. And if FD see fit for behaviors outside the C&P remit, such as CL-ing, to be part of ones karma then that's fine too.

Even if your karma is in the toilet so badly that every NPC, station and faction in the game is saying "If he puts a single foot wrong, I'll have him!" you'll still have to put that foot wrong to bring the world crashing down on your head. Karma will only moderate how the game behaves towards you, it wont (or at least shouldn't) carry any specific immediate "punishment" like explicitly committing a crime and triggering the C&P mechanics do.

A good C&P system can be used to reduce any kind of unwanted behavior to an acceptable level. The idea of the karma system is to hit harder against PvP crime than PvE crime.

Keep the C&P at a relaxed level to allow PvE criminals an easy life and deal with PvP criminals hard.

It doesn't feel right to me, and I have never killed a commander.

 

[lenna]

Keep the C&P at a relaxed level to allow PvE criminals an easy life and deal with PvP criminals hard.

It doesn't feel right to me, and I have never killed a commander.

The difference is that when you engage in PvP in ED you are effectively engaging in fratricide, regardless of whether you actually like the other person or not. As CMDRs we are all part of the same in-game faction, the Pilot's Federation in effect.

Not only that, but NPCs do not have rebuy cost nor have they spent time to get where they are - they are computer generated targets intended as PvE content for CMDRs.

It is not the case that PvP targets do not suffer progression set backs from being killed, and keep in mind that the proposed karma system is only intended to address a subset of the PvP engagements.

 

[Zambrick]

It's an alternative approach. The harch nerf was a response to Roberts claim that the game wold be to dificult if NPCs were given realistic builds.

What I want is a game where the NPCs are as believable as possible. Meaning that they behave not like players, but as a real person in a space ship would.

I would the expect police to be equiped to do their job and other high ranks to be at least as well equiped as players.
Navies shoul of course be totally out of our league, in every way.

In a game like this, any unwanted behaviour could be dealt with by the game mechanics, without creating a set of extra rules for player interaction.

I rather have a game where players are guests in a realistic galaxy, than players front and center.

Karma feels like s cheap solution to the griefing problem.

Even if you were to get all of your wishes and the NPCs were indeed scaled to the fight correctly, then that would still not address the griefing problem. The difference between a Game Ai and a person is that a person can make a decision/draw a conclusion and then choose to ignore it. A program cannot.

A person can know what they are doing is wrong and or considered bad behavior and they can ignore that. A computer program cannot. It must make a decision. In the end a computer program only has 2 choices. Do or not Do. 0 or 1. Nothing in between. People ignore that decision point therefore do not have to adhere to any set of rules or principals. Hence griefing.

The only way to dictate an outcome of a free thinking morally ambiguous decision making entity is to try and control it. If you are good you, get rewarded. If you are bad, you are punished . If you are indifferent, then nobody bugs you. You cannot dictate freewill as you can dictate a programs behavior. You can only hope to control it by offering risks and rewards.

A Karma/intention tracking system would do that. Stack that on top of a real C&P/risk versus reward system and you have the makings of a believable environment. As it is now EDs rule system has more in common with a Tom and Jerry cartoon than a science fiction based living universe.


EDIT:
I do indeed agree that the NPCs in all aspects need a serious overhaul in effectiveness and believablity. I think that it can be addressed later once a story has been allowed to develop in the game. Tweaking near the end of the product completion or whatnot.

 

[Han_Zen]

Even if you were to get all of your wishes and the NPCs were indeed scaled to the fight correctly, then that would still not address the griefing problem. The difference between a Game Ai and a person is that a person can make a decision/draw a conclusion and then choose to ignore it. A program cannot.

A person can know what they are doing is wrong and or considered bad behavior and they can ignore that. A computer program cannot. It must make a decision. In the end a computer program only has 2 choices. Do or not Do. 0 or 1. Nothing in between. People ignore that decision point therefore do not have to adhere to any set of rules or principals. Hence griefing.

The only way to stop a free thinking morally ambiguous decision is to try and control it. If you are good you, get rewarded. If you are bad, you are punished . If you are indifferent, then nobody bugs you. You cannot dictate freewill as you can dictate a programs behavior. You can only hope to control it by offering risks and rewards.

A Karma/intention tracking system would do that. Stack that on top of a real C&P/risk versus reward system and you have the makings of a believable environment. As it is now EDs rule system has more in common with a Tom and Jerry cartoon than a science fiction based living universe.

I fully agree with this. I don't want NPCs to act like players. Players do generally not act in a believable way. They are gennerally just as predictable as NPCs once you know their agenda.

I just want NPCs to have equal rules as players. I have no problem with behavior tracking and galaxy wide reputation. I just cant see what the harm would be to give NPCs equal effect on that reputation.

When it comes to the Pilots federation, I think it's a strange strategy to force all players in to the same 'faction' and make us be friends.