Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Robert Maynard
Han_Zen said:
This is where we don't agree. Players have the option to avoid the games reaction to law breaking, by having a strong ship.

If the game was able to propperly react to players actions on NPCs, it would do the same when the crime was against a player.
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In the Deliberate Ramming thread, Sandro has posted a few times. I asked him about this:

Robert Maynard said:
There has been some discontent regarding the apparent disparity of treatment between player vs. player interactions and player vs. NPC interactions.

You mentioned earlier that the karma system is designed to deal with player/player actions - although did not seem to rule out applying a karmic hit for player vs. NPC actions. Could you please clarify if karma would be applied for player/player interactions and some player/NPC interactions or not?

Also, are you considering beefed up consequences for crime in general (that would apply regardless of the nature of the target)?
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He replied as follows:

Sandro Sammarco said:
Hello Commander Robert Maynard!

Remembering that none of this is being promised, I would say this about the players interacting with players versus players interacting with NPCs:

* In general, only players are members of the Pilot's Federation, which would be the organisation dealing with a karma rating.

* NPCs don't support the game's development. They don't (as far as I can tell) enjoy or hate the game mechanics. This system is not about them. It's not even focused on verisimilitude. It's about dealing with humans in a shared game space and creating an environment which supports as many of them as possible as well as we can.

Whilst we could apply a karma system to NPC interactions it would require more data tracking and serve no useful purpose as far as I can make out.

The only "beefing up" of crime I can think of at the moment is more teeth to authority vessels to cope with heavily engineered ships (authority vessels are always meant to be a threat, so I'd like to see them visiting the Engineers).
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askavir

askavir
That is very disappointing.

Sure dealing with stuff like station suicide rammers is nice, but it will be another wasted opportunity to add depth to the game by implementing consequences (good and bad) to all our in-game actions.

If this is just for player-player things, then meh.
 
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sewerratuk

sewerratuk
jasonbarron said:
And yes, I do think many players shamelessly grief NPC's. A karma system that afforded them some protections, too, could only enhance the overall game for everyone.
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I can't decide whether you're being serious or just forum griefing ;)
That's pushing the limits of the discussion even for me
 

Morbad

Morbad
Brian of Ardagh said:
By their very nature NPCs can't be griefed, just as an NPC can't grief a player.
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I guess that explains my immunity to griefing and my inability to grief others. If the act takes emotional consideration from both parties, well, it's not coming from me thus cannot be.

sewerratuk said:
I can't decide whether you're being serious or just forum griefing ;)
That's pushing the limits of the discussion even for me
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Do you really think the fact that my CMDR has gunned down twenty thousand NPCs, often dozens at a time, is plausible? Or that he's been able to be caught murdering hundreds of them and get away with it by paying a fine is conducive to the game's setting seeming real?
 
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sewerratuk

sewerratuk
Morbad said:
I guess that explains my immunity to griefing and my inability to grief others. If the act takes emotional consideration from both parties, well, it's not coming from me thus cannot be.



Do you really think the fact that my CMDR has gunned down twenty thousand NPCs, often dozens at a time, is plausible? Or that he's been able to be caught murdering hundreds of them and get away with it by paying a fine is conducive to the game's setting seeming real?
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Nope but that's not a karma thing, that's C&P.
As a side note, I liked the fast response cops and npcs with bite at 2.whatever introduced and think it should be brought back as C&P but we both know it will never happen because folk do like to farm those insignificant npcs.
As a second side note I think 'realism' in this game went out the window some time ago, we have selective realism - No instant ship transfer but holo-me, cough...
 

Han_Zen

Han_Zen
askavir said:
That is very disappointing.

Sure dealing with stuff like station suicide rammers is nice, but it will be another wasted opportunity to add depth to the game by implementing consequences (good and bad) to all our in-game actions.

If this is just for player-player things, then meh.
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It is dissapointing. I'm all for automated monitoring of EULA breaking behaviour, but I feel shadow banning is a better response.

Crime is best dealt with by a C&P system.
Killing a clean ship is a crime. Combat logging is breaking the game rules. It should not be dealt with the same way.

Glad to see the police will get a buff though. I hope it's substantial. If the close the suicidewinder loophole to, I would be happy.

As long as players aren't given bad karma for doing stuff the NPCs do, I think it would be ok.
 

lenna

lenna
Han_Zen said:
I don't agree. It would be easy to 'bring players in line' with the NPCs, by brutally nerfing top player builds.
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Robert was right, what you are talking about is a totally separate issue.

While I do agree that there are various OP combat focused metas that need hitting hard with the nerf bat; However, FD need to do so carefully. Due to the scope of the issues in play, it would be only fair for there to be a substantial warning period in order to give commanders sufficient time to return to an appropriate dock to be able to rework their builds. FD could help with this by having one or more roving stations similar to Jacques that would allow players that are very far out from the bubbles to be able to return to a neutral port for the refit somewhere closer to their chosen area of exploration. Such roving stations could end up either leaving the galaxy after a period, taking permanent station at some remote locations, or return to one of the bubbles to be either permenantly sited or decommissioned.

The Karma and C&P concerns have almost nothing to do with build balances, just player behaviours.
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
rlsg said:
The Karma and C&P concerns have almost nothing to do with build balances, just player behaviours.
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It's an alternative approach. The harch nerf was a response to Roberts claim that the game wold be to dificult if NPCs were given realistic builds.

What I want is a game where the NPCs are as believable as possible. Meaning that they behave not like players, but as a real person in a space ship would.

I would the expect police to be equiped to do their job and other high ranks to be at least as well equiped as players.
Navies shoul of course be totally out of our league, in every way.

In a game like this, any unwanted behaviour could be dealt with by the game mechanics, without creating a set of extra rules for player interaction.

I rather have a game where players are guests in a realistic galaxy, than players front and center.

Karma feels like s cheap solution to the griefing problem.
 

bookmite

bookmite
I think a good solution would be a simple fix to attract more players into open.

Particularly at CG's ...Turn off friendly fire

for the bad boys their naughty step could be to restrict their PvP to either Cz's or whole open combat systems. There's no need to have other modes

This thread is going beyond salty, my eyes are running just from reading some of the crass statements.
 

jasonbarron

jasonbarron
bookmite said:
I think a good solution would be a simple fix to attract more players into open.

Particularly at CG's ...Turn off friendly fire

for the bad boys their naughty step could be to restrict their PvP to either Cz's or whole open combat systems. There's no need to have other modes

This thread is going beyond salty, my eyes are running just from reading some of the crass statements.
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There is no option on the table that will bring people "back" into Open after having left it in the first place.
 

lenna

lenna
Han_Zen said:
It's an alternative approach.
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Again... game difficulty has ZERO to do with the undesirable PvP behaviours. Combat rebalancing is not even close to addressing the underlying problem that a karma system is intended to address.

It is not rocket science. :rolleyes:
 
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