Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[Erasmus Boone]

Just for the sake of saying it I think the karma concept is extremly reasonable and a jolly good idea.

I now spend most of my time in solo and private groups but this will probably bring me back to open.
I would be willing to bet that there are many more like me out there.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Shadow-bans should be out of the question, period. This is once again turning into recommendations that sound awfully like trying to completely restrict PvP, even if the means are subtle and slow moving.

Most of you need to take a step back and let Frontier actually hash this out.

Listen to the chicken. The chicken is wise.

 

[Deadspin]

Listen to the chicken. The chicken is wise.

..or the chicken will peck out your eyes.

 

[-Denali-]

You know, in other games, people just punish jerks themselves... usually by shooting at them.

True. Payback is behind a massive grind wall in this one though and finding them again could be hard to do. Maybe what this game needs is an option on the rebuy screen that lets you put up your own bounty on the killer if you were clean when killed... and then a more centralized list for interested players. They could add special bounty hunting uber NPC's that spawn on anyone wanted for more than 10 million.

 

[Mohrgan]

I am pretty convinced that nothing will or should be done about C&P, or a Notoriety system. No matter which way it goes it will not alter the level of population in open. A system that ultimately accepted, or wouldn't prevent, ganking would be seen as a 'half measure' by those opposed to that. While any system strong enough to curtail ganking, would drive many into criminality that are just interested in PvP, and cause a stink storm no one wants to witness.

Let's just say that 'the die is cast' with regards to open, and let's get on with the idea of a PvE-Open. It could be like the 'wild west' and 'back east' like in the old cowboy movies. I can better tolerate a weekly 'open is fine' thread, rather than a daily 'I still got ganked' thread.

 

[SkipRat]

Listen to the chicken. The chicken is wise.

??????

I'm not in deep space for months so some lazy git can run off with my data, even if it's just a fraction.

I agree. Get your own data, and stop being a whiny baby wanting to ride on other CMDRs coattails.

Says the special snowflake who thinks that piracy and criminal activity shouldn't apply to him.

So how is your evening Mr Hypocrite?

 

[Deadspin]

I am pretty convinced that nothing will or should be done about C&P, or a Notoriety system. No matter which way it goes it will not alter the level of population in open. A system that ultimately accepted, or wouldn't prevent, ganking would be seen as a 'half measure' by those opposed to that. While any system strong enough to curtail ganking, would drive many into criminality that are just interested in PvP, and cause a stink storm no one wants to witness.

Let's just say that 'the die is cast' with regards to open, and let's get on with the idea of a PvE-Open. It could be like the 'wild west' and 'back east' like in the old cowboy movies. I can better tolerate a weekly 'open is fine' thread, rather than a daily 'I still got ganked' thread.

One must learn to disregard the weekly or even daily repeater posts. If not, one burns out and begins to disregard all equally, which is no bueno for a forum member.

That being said, I find myself agreeing with you, though my thoughts are based more on the idea that Frontier would have to basically overhaul the engine and the way the game thinks in order to provide a properly (or even notionally) balanced C&P/Karma system.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Says the special snowflake who thinks that piracy and criminal activity shouldn't apply to him.

So how is your evening Mr Hypocrite?

My evening is going great! Thanks for asking

Yours still seem to be troubled by burrs under your saddle. I'd like to ask you though not to infect other threads with your cheerful disposition. With that in mind:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...irates-Only)?p=5521298&viewfull=1#post5521298

Have a great one yourself, see ya sweet cheeks!

 

[SkipRat]

My evening is going great! Thanks for asking

Yours still seem to be troubled by burrs under your saddle. I'd like to ask you though not to infect other threads with your cheerful disposition. With that in mind:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...irates-Only)?p=5521298&viewfull=1#post5521298

Have a great one yourself, see ya sweet cheeks!

Aww bless.

Unfortunately no, I am not troubled... possibly to your displeasure...

But alas, this thread has already tainted and infected by yours and many others hypocrisy, so I cant drag down what is already at rock bottom.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That sad smiley face had me worried, glad to hear everything is peachy

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Ultimately, this is a huge grey area.
We've had "play your way" rather unrestricted for two years now.
Turning that into "play your way within the confines of these rules" is a change, welcome by some, resented by others.

And it's an issue faced by nearly every sandbox game out there - dig far enough and you'll find what the cats buried.
But what the cats buried is also a part of sandbox play... even when you don't want to find them.

And it's a two-way street as well - consummate combat loggers do not want griefers in their lives. Griefers do not want combat loggers in their lives.
But each is "playing their way", and to restrict one and not the other.. well, that's neither a solution nor a compromise.

So if "your way" is that of being a , that's fine, but don't ---ch about someone going poof.
And if you are a poofer, don't ---ch about random people firing on you for no reason.

And that will solve 2/3 of this problem right off the bat.

 

[Helvellyn]

Ultimately, this is a huge grey area.
We've had "play your way" rather unrestricted for two years now.
Turning that into "play your way within the confines of these rules" is a change, welcome by some, resented by others.

And it's an issue faced by nearly every sandbox game out there - dig far enough and you'll find what the cats buried.
But what the cats buried is also a part of sandbox play... even when you don't want to find them.

And it's a two-way street as well - consummate combat loggers do not want griefers in their lives. Griefers do not want combat loggers in their lives.
But each is "playing their way", and to restrict one and not the other.. well, that's neither a solution nor a compromise.

So if "your way" is that of being a , that's fine, but don't ---ch about someone going poof.
And if you are a poofer, don't ---ch about random people firing on you for no reason.

And that will solve 2/3 of this problem right off the bat.

Combat logging has always been against the rules from the start AFAIK. The rest? There have always been some consequences, just not terribly effective ones. "Within these rules" has always existed too - you can't instantly equip whatever you like right at the start of the game after all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Cute idea. Presumably this would also disable the CMDR tag on targets as well, so it's just a name? But Building on the idea that this might just slow griefers down, my immediate take away would be the new tactic would be to watch local chat and take names down of CMDRs who reveal themselves. It would effectively kill local chat because everyone would be worried about who might be listening. There goes casual interaction and a mistrust of anyone who tries to start it up.

Possibly - however, if those players who were not receiving IFF data were displayed on the HUD differently then those who might chat would know if anyone else might be listening in....

 

[Stinja]

The difference is that in reality psychopaths are a finite resource. In the real world, a suicide bomber blows up, he doesn't respawn. Lee Harvy Oswald gets shot in the end and doesn't come back to haunt the next president. We obviously can't make the game mechanics IN game reflect this kind of absolutism.

You could sort of: Make Open PvE only, unless you tick a box saying "enable PvP", which is can only be turned on (or left off). Selecting this would force the CMDR into ironman mode.
They can now attack enemy PvP CMDRs freely.
They can also attack PvE CMDRs, but that flags them to be shot back by anyone (ie those without PvP enabled).

When they die their game is reset (back to sidewinder and 1000cr).

Feel free to swap ships, do whatever, but this would stop suicidewinding to wipe bounties. Give risk to activities etc.

Would that make PvP dangerous enough? [big grin]

 

[Zambrick]

Just to highlight some of the hypocrisy of many players, if people like me and many many others want the Pirates, psycho's and murderers to have consequences regarding their actions (all legitimate game play styles, psychos and murderers will exist then). The other career paths have to have consequences, threats and risks too.

For instance, I just proposed this for an idea in another thread;

"I think pirates should get a specially modified limpet that can hack exploration data, so when the explorer player sells his date, the pirate actually receives the money etc from an x number of random systems that he has collected data from... And the data is transferred to the black market.

By doing this way, the pirate doesn't want to kill the explorer player, because then he cant sell his data, but still needs to interdict him and get through his defences to plant the software on the ship, as the Pirate doesn't actually take the data from the explorer, just redirects the information once it is sold.

Also, if engine wear and tear comes in, it means pirates in more combat oriented ships that cant go out exploring, can still increase their explorer rank.... Just through dodgy means... And makes a positive use for the karma system.

It also goes with out saying, that certain engineers may offer counter measures that reduce the impact of the limpets.

Thoughts?"

All that happened was explorers stating crying like children and how unfair it all was....

It is completely unfair to ask traders to be the only ones to be effected piracy and criminal activity, whilst explorers seem to think they are above everyone else and think they should deserve to get special snowflake treatment and should have to deal with any dangers or consequences in game...

Absolutely not, this is a game meant to be played by everyone who may want to play different styles. Yes, there needs to be a proper C&P/Karma system, more depth, proper consequences to player actions and there is no justifiable reason why explorers should be exempt from risk from npc's or other players.

The more I listen to these hypocrites on this forum, the more I actually want to support griefing.... Simply because it seems most people deserve it. Everyone wants to make changes to the game so they can do what ever they want with a little threat or effort as possible and not because it would actually add some much needed depth to the game.

We dont need extra tools to steal data from others. As it is now piracy is theft of property/data in game. In the real world you stole a couple of hours from a trader or many many dozens if not hundreds of hours from an Explorer. Which one is more likely to quit the game or forever be a member of mobius. You want that kind of animosity in a video game, then you go and find another video game.

They dont need any more tools for that. They just need their profession legitimized by missions and game play mechanics. At worst all they would need to do is make the hatch breaker limpet more effective and do things like make Haulage from missions invisible to limpits or other players. Any commodity in the game should be able to be stolen.

Haulage is tied to a mission and generally of no value to the Pirate. So make it fair for both the Pirate and the Merchant ship, there would be stipulations put in place for the missions. So for example like it is now accept a little harsher for the trade ship. If for example you get interdicted at all by an NPC or Player Pirate, then you take a significant hit to your bonus pay. Essentially cutting it in half. It would be a similar getting scanned with Ilicit cargo accept it would apply to all haulage for missions. After the initial theft of 50% of the bonus then no more money can be removed from bonus.

In turn when you pirate a trade ship and they have mission haulage, and you decide to interdict them anyways, then not only do you get reported to the local Authority, You get negative influence applied to which ever minor faction the pilot is flying the haulage for.

They also need to make one more scanner type. They need Cargo Scanner. The cargo scanner would only provide very very limited Data. It would end up telling you what type of cargo is in the ship.

Cargo Types are as follows:
Mission Haulage
Low Quality Cargo,
Cargo
High Quality Cargo
Illicit Cargo Low Value
Illicit Cargo High Value

It would also tell you the tonnage/amount.

And the kicker for this new scanner would the fact that it can be used in Super Cruise. I never understood how a pirate in ED would even know to interdict your ship in the first place. At least that could explain it and it could help the Pirates decide if its worth the risk.

That would be a fix that they could put in tomorrow because all of the components for said scanner tool already exist in the game.

As for explorers, no. I dont care if you RP it to hell can gone. Your 5 minutes sitting outside a space port to steal hundreds of hours of data from someone can never have a justification for doing so. They are literally the only profession that has nothing but a positive impact on the game. The fact that explorers even need to carry the data back at all is absurd considering there is instant communication tech in the game universe. You will never convince anyone that its a good idea. Nobody would dare go exploring any more. They would be stupid to.

You are making a strawman argument in order to try to force your agenda of no consequences for anything.

 

[GMANTOR]

Seems to me that people see C&P and penalties to be inflicted on gankers and pirates alike but it seems to me that a proper C&P system gives rewards to gankers and pirates in the form of a career choice.

This is how my C&P system would work out. I like the karma idea contributing to your reputation. There are 3 states in open :
High Security = criminals not allowed to dock, shot on sight, if they interdict someone sec forces in within 10 seconds (exact details need to be tweaked) i.e. hard and annoying to even be in the system
Low Security = can't dock generally but might if rep isn't low enough, sec forces delayed response, criminals can work in this system
Anarchy = Criminals home and they are praised and rewarded for their evil deeds

From the point of view of a trader :
High Security = Traders can easily survive here but the profits are lowish. Virtually instant sec force on interdict means well protected
Low Security = Traders can make 3x the sell price in these systems. very tempting but the pirates are here (hence the price!)
Anarchy = to be avoided as it should be !

From the point of view of a pirate/ganker :
High Security = Very difficult to even be in system so not worth it
Low Security = This is where I do all my work
Anarchy = This is where I get good prices for stolen cargo. I also get special missions not available to someone with a good reputation. If I am interdicted other pirates come in to help me based on reputation. This is my equivalent of High Security.

There needs to be one more distinguishing feature : the ganker. The above might make it tempting for gankers to kill pirates in anarchy systems. The karma system needs to recognise the killing of other pirates i.e. bad rep in anarchy and then enforce : can't land in anarchy system , hunted on site by other pirates for being a filthy traitor. The end result is that your reputation as a ganker might eventually make it impossible to be in inhabited space whereas for pirates there is a clear reward/incentive to be a pirate.

 

[Han_Zen]

You could sort of: Make Open PvE only, unless you tick a box saying "enable PvP", which is can only be turned on (or left off). Selecting this would force the CMDR into ironman mode.
They can now attack enemy PvP CMDRs freely.
They can also attack PvE CMDRs, but that flags them to be shot back by anyone (ie those without PvP enabled).

When they die their game is reset (back to sidewinder and 1000cr).

Feel free to swap ships, do whatever, but this would stop suicidewinding to wipe bounties. Give risk to activities etc.

Would that make PvP dangerous enough? [big grin]

Might have some issues with ramming, if this idea is implemented.
Only role players would turn PvP on. Grifers would not. Competitive PvPers wold just leave.

 

[mossfoot]

Possibly - however, if those players who were not receiving IFF data were displayed on the HUD differently then those who might chat would know if anyone else might be listening in....

Yeah, if there was a way regular players could instantly spot douches on the radar, it would make griefing that much more difficult... though not impossible.

Any action you can think of, you have to ask yourself how you could counter it. Here perhaps it would just be hanging close to the star to try and interdict before targets jump away. Or outside no fire zones hitting ships as they drop in with long range modded weapons. Kit out super cool builds for silent running so they don't appear on radar at all for long periods of time?

 

[Mohrgan]

Seems to me that people see C&P and penalties to be inflicted on gankers and pirates alike but it seems to me that a proper C&P system gives rewards to gankers and pirates in the form of a career choice.

This is how my C&P system would work out. I like the karma idea contributing to your reputation. There are 3 states in open :
High Security = criminals not allowed to dock, shot on sight, if they interdict someone sec forces in within 10 seconds (exact details need to be tweaked) i.e. hard and annoying to even be in the system
Low Security = can't dock generally but might if rep isn't low enough, sec forces delayed response, criminals can work in this system
Anarchy = Criminals home and they are praised and rewarded for their evil deeds

From the point of view of a trader :
High Security = Traders can easily survive here but the profits are lowish. Virtually instant sec force on interdict means well protected
Low Security = Traders can make 3x the sell price in these systems. very tempting but the pirates are here (hence the price!)
Anarchy = to be avoided as it should be !

From the point of view of a pirate/ganker :
High Security = Very difficult to even be in system so not worth it
Low Security = This is where I do all my work
Anarchy = This is where I get good prices for stolen cargo. I also get special missions not available to someone with a good reputation. If I am interdicted other pirates come in to help me based on reputation. This is my equivalent of High Security.

There needs to be one more distinguishing feature : the ganker. The above might make it tempting for gankers to kill pirates in anarchy systems. The karma system needs to recognise the killing of other pirates i.e. bad rep in anarchy and then enforce : can't land in anarchy system , hunted on site by other pirates for being a filthy traitor. The end result is that your reputation as a ganker might eventually make it impossible to be in inhabited space whereas for pirates there is a clear reward/incentive to be a pirate.

You cannot base anything on careers or roles. People, myself included, slip seamlessly between them. Those points of views should all be seen at the same time. What professional point of view would you assign to PvP'ers, just looking for a good fight? What point of view do you assign to a guy who drops off Data, but takes that one Wetworks job in the Anarchy system nearby? Any system that can recognize your intended role would absolutely need to digest your in-game history, for good and ill. Any system that required a locked in choice of occupation would break down the ability for the player to just do something. So, either way you find a failure point trying to assign hard and fast roles on players.

 

[jasonbarron]

Aww bless.

Unfortunately no, I am not troubled... possibly to your displeasure...

But alas, this thread has already tainted and infected by yours and many others hypocrisy, so I cant drag down what is already at rock bottom.

That sad smiley face had me worried, glad to hear everything is peachy

Get a room you two!
[heart]