Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[Jack Schitt]

I was drunk...

To avoid this sort of unfortunate misunderstanding we need a forum karma system that can detect drunkenness and ensure that drunk people only see posts from other drunk people. Threads will then come to a natural end when one party achieves sufficient sobriety and "escapes into Sober Mode."

 

[steenpass]

It shouldn't. Nobody said it should. If you do it in a lawful system however the cops should be seriously on your tail for doing so. Attacking a clean player in a lawful system should entail asking yourself "is this gonna be worth the hassle?". Right now the "hassle" is trivial.

I also think it should not. But I feel that Mr Maynard comes very close to implying this, though its hard to target amongst all the chaff.

'Is it worth the hassle' is a question I'd like to ask myself whether I encounter a clean Cmdr or a clean NPC. It would mean there is some game mechanic that lets me do interesting decisions. However, a karma system dealing with player behavior only is an independent thing.

 

[NighteyesWolf]

Does everyone realize that you could make everyone happy if you just made high sec systems pvE only right? Then PvPs could just go to lower sec systems and have their fun and entire groups like mobius would move to Open and play in the higher security zones. Bamm, suddenly you have actual people interacting in the game and in systems, adding encounters and variety that this game desperately needs.

Also, add wing only objectives/missions, is this supposed to be an mmo or what?

Simple.

It wouldnt actually change anything gameplay wise because all styles of play are still accounted for, they now just live under one roof.
and THAT is what elite needs to feel less bland: people.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

At least a good Karma and C&P system could start introducing strategy into the game. System control and government types. Figuring out ways to Infiltrate and change a systems security rating to Anarchy. Strikes into lawful space, how to avoid authorities and methods to do so. Risk Versus reward. The lack of a Karma/C&P system is exactly why this game has been dumbed down to the base kill or be killed attitude that breaks the entire game universes believably.

This. It's what I've been saying for a while. I have no idea why FDev aren't attempting to complete this most fundamental part of their game/galaxy.

It's 2.5 years of missed opportunity to bring much needed strategy, gameplay, believability and roleplay to the game. Instead, we have a near infinite-entropy galaxy suited to the griefers and murder hobos, since there's no consequences at all. It's not believable in the slightest.

The farce is laid bare when you look at passenger missions - full of celebrities, politicians, executives - all wanting transport in a galaxy where criminals can kill them nigh instantly for no reason and with no repercussions. Believable?

FDev need to get away from their tech demo mentality and complete the foundations of the game.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Does everyone realize that you could make everyone happy if you just made high sec systems pvE only right? Then PvPs could just go to lower sec systems and have their fun and entire groups like mobius would move to Open and play in the higher security zones. Bamm, suddenly you have actual people interacting in the game and in systems, adding encounters and variety that this game desperately needs.

Also, add wing only objectives/missions, is this supposed to be an mmo or what?

Simple.

It wouldnt actually change anything gameplay wise because all styles of play are still accounted for, they now just live under one roof.
and THAT is what elite needs to feel less bland: people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6OCizr9MwI

 

[Sandmann]

Does everyone realize that you could make everyone happy if you just made high sec systems pvE only right

Yep, that'd work... and the infuriated screams, wailing, gnashing of teeth, tearing of hair, and buckets full of salty tears of the dedicated PvPers able to see people they can't shoot at would be just as entertaining for the PvEers... as would all the emergent griefing methods such as ramming, blocking etc for the frustrated PvPers.

I have a feeling it would cause more problems than it would solve, as it would be something akin to "rubbing their noses in it", or "waving a red flag at a bull". Better is to allow them to break the law but make it increasingly uncomfortable to do so... so they CHOOSE to either go to the anarchies or face the consequences.

 

[-Denali-]

Does everyone realize that you could make everyone happy if you just made high sec systems pvE only right? Then PvPs could just go to lower sec systems and have their fun and entire groups like mobius would move to Open and play in the higher security zones. Bamm, suddenly you have actual people interacting in the game and in systems, adding encounters and variety that this game desperately needs.

Also, add wing only objectives/missions, is this supposed to be an mmo or what?

Simple.

It wouldnt actually change anything gameplay wise because all styles of play are still accounted for, they now just live under one roof.
and THAT is what elite needs to feel less bland: people.

That's not how system security works. The more crime in a non-anarchy system, the more security. There are no 'high security systems', just ones that temporarily have that sate. If you reduce crime in those system it will just move somewhere else for a few days. You'd first need static system security levels to make something like that work.

 

[mossfoot]

Yep, that'd work... and the infuriated screams, wailing, gnashing of teeth, tearing of hair, and buckets full of salty tears of the dedicated PvPers able to see people they can't shoot at would be just as entertaining for the PvEers... as would all the emergent griefing methods such as ramming, blocking etc for the frustrated PvPers.

I have a feeling it would cause more problems than it would solve, as it would be something akin to "rubbing their noses in it", or "waving a red flag at a bull". Better is to allow them to break the law but make it increasingly uncomfortable to do so... so they CHOOSE to either go to the anarchies or face the consequences.

I think a number of PvEers might night like that soultion either. Look, I PvE unless a CMDR tries to get me, but I also play in Open exclusively. And I like the idea of actions having consequences - for everyone. The idea that High Sec sectors are suddenly completely safe is not what I personally am looking for. Because tragedies happen. Lone gunman on the grassy knoll, suicide bombers, organized crime and even purposeful warfare can still happen.

The difference is that in reality psychopaths are a finite resource. In the real world, a suicide bomber blows up, he doesn't respawn. Lee Harvy Oswald gets shot in the end and doesn't come back to haunt the next president. We obviously can't make the game mechanics IN game reflect this kind of absolutism.

But people who break the law in less extreme ways (by Elite lore standards) pay for their crimes and go about their business, to reform or reoffend. In a sense, they DO respawn. The game mechanics as is more or less allow for this (but can always use work).

You want people to be limited in doing the former, and free to do the latter, but with appropriate consequences that are fair but allow for players to live (and even prosper at) a criminal lifestyle if they want, while weeding out the tools that ruin it for everyone.

 

[lenna]

Does everyone realize that you could make everyone happy if you just made high sec systems pvE only right?

Not sure I agree with the principle of that, that essentially means explorers have to be roaming around in PvP ready ships which is not always that feasible. Sure it would help some traders and perhaps some miners but that is about it IMO.

A properly implemented karma system with appropriate levels of in-game consequences may help mitigate some of the PvP behaviours but it probably would not stop it completely.

IMO There is no half measure solution that would work where those that would prefer an Open PvE environment are concerned - it is full Open PvE or bust, some may settle for in-game consequences for the behaviours though..

 

[Mohrgan]

I think a number of PvEers might night like that soultion either. Look, I PvE unless a CMDR tries to get me, but I also play in Open exclusively. And I like the idea of actions having consequences - for everyone. The idea that High Sec sectors are suddenly completely safe is not what I personally am looking for. Because tragedies happen. Lone gunman on the grassy knoll, suicide bombers, organized crime and even purposeful warfare can still happen.

The difference is that in reality psychopaths are a finite resource. In the real world, a suicide bomber blows up, he doesn't respawn. Lee Harvy Oswald gets shot in the end and doesn't come back to haunt the next president. We obviously can't make the game mechanics IN game reflect this kind of absolutism.

But people who break the law in less extreme ways (by Elite lore standards) pay for their crimes and go about their business, to reform or reoffend. In a sense, they DO respawn. The game mechanics as is more or less allow for this (but can always use work).

You want people to be limited in doing the former, and free to do the latter, but with appropriate consequences that are fair but allow for players to live (and even prosper at) a criminal lifestyle if they want, while weeding out the tools that ruin it for everyone.

Certainly the 'Threshold' is what this conversation is, or should be, about. At what point do the wheels of justice start turning, and just how fast do they spin up? The whole thing should be gradual and reversible. There just should be a record, and consequences for an in-game life of crime. It could allow that if you do more good than naughty, you;ll be legit. You can 'pay' for your sins, so to speak. There has to be a mechanism that performs that task, pick a name for it, but let's get one stared.

 

[Sandmann]

Certainly the 'Threshold' is what this conversation is, or should be, about. At what point do the wheels of justice start turning, and just how fast do they spin up? The whole thing should be gradual and reversible. There just should be a record, and consequences for an in-game life of crime. It could allow that if you do more good than naughty, you;ll be legit. You can 'pay' for your sins, so to speak. There has to be a mechanism that performs that task, pick a name for it, but let's get one stared.

As far as I understand that's exactly what Sandro was proposing. He talked about a system that tracked player behaviour over time to show behavioural patterns, so my assumption is that it would track ALL behaviour - the good AND the bad. If it were just a record of "naughty" without the "nice" it would just guarantee that everyone would be in trouble sooner or later.

[Edit] The other way would be if it had a decay rate I suppose, so that if you USED to be "naughty" and now you've now "reformed" you're gradually "forgiven your sins".

 

[lenna]

As far as I understand that's exactly what Sandro was proposing. He talked about a system that tracked player behaviour over time to show behavioural patterns, so my assumption is that it would track ALL behaviour - the good AND the bad. If it were just a record of "naughty" without the "nice" it would just guarantee that everyone would be in trouble sooner or later.

[Edit] The other way would be if it had a decay rate I suppose, so that if you USED to be "naughty" and now you've now "reformed" you're gradually "forgiven your sins".

The decay rate is the only way to go IMO, otherwise players will just flip flop (between +ve and -ve) behaviours and the end result being no net improvement in overall behaviours. The decay rate should probably be slower the higher the bad karma gets, perhaps in an exponentially longer way (e.g. double the karma level = quadruple the cool off period to the reference karma level).

Example:-

1. 1 karma point = 1 hour cool off
2. 2 karma points = 4hs+1hr total cool off (4 hrs to 1 karma point)
3. 3 karma points = 16hrs+4hrs+1hr total cool off (16 hours to 2 karma points)
4. 4 karma points = 64hrs+16hrs+4hrs+1hr total cool off (64 hours to 3 karma points)

 

[EdzUp]

Decay is a bad idea

To be honest they should have to do quadruple good deeds to get the 1 point wiped not decay. Most will just fly into deep space to get rid of a bad rep otherwise which defeats the purpose.

For all the complaints I think it's a step in the right direction and the main complaint seems to be "I want to kill who I want but this will stop me" which doesn't seem a good enough argument to me.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Most will just fly into deep space to get rid of a bad rep otherwise which defeats the purpose

Kind of confirms the purpose you mean.

Why is the karma system being introduced ? Track "bad" players [and the game should respond to those players]

If one of the ways is to fly into deep space for a period of time [whilst it decays] ... that removes them from the general population .. ergo they can't be "bad"



[edits]

 

[Jex =TE=]

Oh - that. Right. That would seem to have been decided at the start of the Kickstarter:

OK we'll quit as you obviously don't have the ability to keep up or you're deliberately trolling (and you're a Mod here).

We were talking about fixing the issue with C&P - I don't give a hoot what the KS said because we're so far off that and the DDS they're not relevant anymore. We were discussing how to fix it which I said remove the stupid ID radar giveaway. You then said "but they'll still gank you" - I then asked you how, making the point that they'd have to scan every ship in system (which nobody is going to do) and then you started this nonsense merrygoround and still haven't answered WHO exactly is going to spend hours scanning blips in the hope they find a player.

 

[Robert Maynard]

OK we'll quit as you obviously don't have the ability to keep up or you're deliberately trolling (and you're a Mod here).

We were talking about fixing the issue with C&P - I don't give a hoot what the KS said because we're so far off that and the DDS they're not relevant anymore. We were discussing how to fix it which I said remove the stupid ID radar giveaway. You then said "but they'll still gank you" - I then asked you how, making the point that they'd have to scan every ship in system (which nobody is going to do) and then you started this nonsense merrygoround and still haven't answered WHO exactly is going to spend hours scanning blips in the hope they find a player.

My point being that, in a multi-player game where it can be rare to meet a player, to hide players in among NPCs would make the game feel even more empty. To consider such a change over two years post-release would require a compelling reason.

.... and in an instance with few targets, scanning them all is trivial.

 

[Jex =TE=]

My point being that, in a multi-player game where it can be rare to meet a player, to hide players in among NPCs would make the game feel even more empty. To consider such a change over two years post-release would require a compelling reason.

.... and in an instance with few targets, scanning them all is trivial.

We already covered that when I said you could chat with commanders in your system as they'd show up in a list - that way you could arrange to meet as well as long as instancing worked.

It's not trivial when you have to be within 5km's to scan them - you're obviously just arguing. You can come up with things to get around all your objections so I think it's best we just stop talking now.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

It's not trivial when you have to be within 5km's to scan them - you're obviously just arguing. You can come up with things to get around all your objections so I think it's best we just stop talking now.

To help the conversation along you're both talking about different things (what it looks like to me)

Rob is referring to Super-Cruise where finding a real person among the NPCs (who spawn really slowly) is trivial being as there's not that many NPCs so as long as you "look" in their direction you see the name / rating / status [clean etc] and perhaps then if they are human or not.

You're referring to being in normal space using a scanner & you have to be within 5KM ... ie the bounty scanner type thing.

--

Also, you're correct .. ignoring the fact that FD will do what they want; probably have already got the entire thing penned out; and most likely are high-5ing themselves right now with how great it is even though given their history it's going to be dreadful; you are correct - we can [hypothetically] discuss how it should be .. then later on we can laugh at how different FDs version is

 

[Jex =TE=]

To help the conversation along you're both talking about different things (what it looks like to me)

Rob is referring to Super-Cruise where finding a real person among the NPCs (who spawn really slowly) is trivial being as there's not that many NPCs so as long as you "look" in their direction you see the name / rating / status [clean etc] and perhaps then if they are human or not.

You're referring to being in normal space using a scanner & you have to be within 5KM ... ie the bounty scanner type thing.

--

Also, you're correct .. ignoring the fact that FD will do what they want; probably have already got the entire thing penned out; and most likely are high-5ing themselves right now with how great it is even though given their history it's going to be dreadful; you are correct - we can [hypothetically] discuss how it should be .. then later on we can laugh at how different FDs version is

No lol

I'm saying get rid of the hollow square - when you scan ships make it so you have to be within 5km or something. SC doesn't even enter the equation then. Basically all I'm getting are objections, there's no real attempt here to find a solution because he wants to keep the hollow squares so any argument against it, however bad, will do it seems.

The point of the conversation was to put an end to ganking. I think making all ships look the same on RADAR would go a long way to stopping that but at the same time, we allow a list of players in system in the consoles so you can chat - maybe even make the chat thing system wide with the ability to PM individuals (That may be how it is already, idk).

All the hollow thing does is show PVP'ers where everyone is with no work and easy mode. Since half the players in game don't even talk back to you and we can have a list, why then have a target painted over your head?

It doesn't make sense.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

AI'm saying get rid of the hollow square - when you scan ships make it so you have to be within 5km or something. SC doesn't even enter the equation then. Basically all I'm getting are objections, there's no real attempt here to find a solution because he wants to keep the hollow squares so any argument against it, however bad, will do it seems.

Indeed.

There was a 3rd option proposed by FD ..

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...l-telling-humans-and-AI-apart?highlight=ident

Naturally there are ways of knowing someone is there, hidden or not (BW meter) but .. so what ?

Interesting that Maynard also liked the IDENT idea