Elite: Harmless - Karma System aka "be the Tamagotchi" - FRESH SALT, MINED RIGHT HERE

[Goose4291]

It just sounds like irrational fears. There are some offenses that could rise to the occasion of a shadow ban. Let's say Combat Logging. So this guy runs around CL'ing on everyone. I'm sure I've heard you call for a ban more than once for CL'ing. Once the Notoriety System catches on, this Commander finds the world around starts to treat him differently. If he persists, a shadow ban is in order. Why not for the Seal Clubber? Why should a pest be protected, and an annoyance be punished? By the way, I certainly consider Shadow Banning as an in-game punishment.

Again, my fears are based on how ill-defined the definition of the term 'griefing' is. I support the idea of a karma system coupled with C&P to penalise ingame for 'less naughty' things, but I believe shadowbanning should be held in reserve for the clear violations of EULA and associated ToS it was originally designed for.

It doesn't help Frontier play fast and loose with their own definitions and seem to only trot it out when it affects the chosen few, like we saw with the twitch sniping debacles last year. Community 'unknowns' complain and follow the correct process for complaining about a griefer constantly harrassing them? Nothing doing. The community big deals take a hit one night and FDEV community management are out in force within hours heavy handedly reiterating their harrasment policy and alluding to shadowbans.

Im a little confused how you regard shadowbans as ingame mechanics. Anything that artificially removes the player from the same playpit as everyone else is surely an out of game mechanic (at least it is in my mind).

 

[Mohrgan]

One problem I have with the discussion is that the people who are driving it the hardest and perhaps the one's who have SS's ear are unlikely to come back and play in Open, even with the implementation of c&p and karma tracking. As to the plan SS is currently mulling, the only people enjoying the new mechanics will be the same crowd already flourishing in Open--so why bother developing a mechanic they don't particularly need? I firmly believe that if a player can be driven into group, nothing short of banning all PvPers who would be up for sending them on a trip the rebuy screen is going to cut it and bring them back, and even then probably not.

If Fdev really believes that the mechanics they're tossing around are going to bring you guys back, they're crazy. Nothing short of banning all the bad guys in this game is going to make you feel safe. I mean, say that karma works like a teeter totter and I can work off karmic debt with enough good deeds, are you really going to put your ship in my path? I'm going to destroy you if I ever see you; if I see you in a ship I can take in a fight I'm going to interdict you and put you down on the spot, and if you're in a ship I can't handle then I'm going to station kill you. Are you going to put yourself in my crosshairs and hope the karma system finally gets me in the long run, or are you going to just stay in your little hidey hole and wait for the glorious day SS finally bans me from the game? As long as there's a way I can get to you and perhaps work my debt off later I can promise you that you'll never be safe.

If Fdev is going to spend time on a c&p mechanic it should be one that adds to gameplay as opposed to just being a cheap little band aid that acts as a punitive measure and little else.

I tend to agree with you. A real balanced solution will not satisfy either extreme. I do believe they should leave open as is, and offer a PvE-Open for those who don;t enjoy what open has to offer. But, it is likely that the moderates in this discussion may become interested in open. That is what the Dev's are after. If they could expect a reasonably robust return to open from the middle ground, the extremes would just have to deal with it. I read them as wanting to put some thoughtful control on the shenanigans in open, before they just divide the thing up.

Not expecting it to be a silver bullet doesn't mean a Notoriety System can't or won't improve the situation.

 

[Minonian]

I think you'll find it was Sandro who floated the 'incentives to play in open' concepts, a while back (in relation to powerplay).

It was met by more faux angst ridden breast clutching than you'd see at an amateur dramatics Shakespearean adaptation.

Than sorry, but no! We are not going to do that! For my part if this happens i just hit the road, one more time and search an MP game, where i not forced to suffer the kind of mob like dialectic.

Edit; And to be honest? I think the players currently in Private groups and solo? Rather blow out their own mind than to tolerate this kind of people, and based on the behavior what we seen there, and usually we experiencing the so called Griefers, and their Trollish forum accounts? Can you fault us because of it? A game messed up this much by this kind of people cannot be loved.

 

[Mohrgan]

Again, my fears are based on how ill-defined the definition of the term 'griefing' is. I support the idea of a karma system coupled with C&P to penalise ingame for 'less naughty' things, but I believe shadowbanning should be held in reserve for the clear violations of EULA and associated ToS it was originally designed for.

It doesn't help Frontier play fast and loose with their own definitions and seem to only trot it out when it affects the chosen few, like we saw with the twitch sniping debacles last year. Community 'unknowns' complain and follow the correct process for complaining about a griefer constantly harrassing them? Nothing doing. The community big deals take a hit one night and FDEV community are out in force within hours heavy handedly reiterating their harrasment policy and alluding to shadowbans.

Im a little confused how you regard shadowbans as ingame mechanics. Anything that artificially removes the player from the same playpit as everyone else is surely an out of game mechanic (at least it is in my mind).

A Notoriety System isn't dependent on a definition of griefing. It would be tracking actual actions the Commander took. It's simple, commit a crime your Notoriety takes a negative hit. Claim some Bounties and your Notoriety gets a boost. Each action would have a proportionate effect on your Notoriety. Not just the bad stuff.

I don't have the same recollection, or reaction to the Stream Sniping you had. I don;t find it unreasonable that players should expect the 'quiet enjoyment' of their game. Those that attacked did simply for some notoriety. I say, give them a real dose of it. Being civil isn't something I see as disposable just because you're playing a computer game.

A Shadow Ban that would be the results of a Notoriety System would be enacted by the game, due to in game activities. That would be an in game action. Being put into a forced solo mode would leave the player able to still play. I see that as an in game solution to in game transgressions. You bandy the shadow ban around like it's the worse offense ever, yet you want that to happen to combat loggers. I don;t see much of a difference.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

One problem I have with the discussion is that the people who are driving it the hardest and perhaps the one's who have SS's ear are unlikely to come back and play in Open, even with the implementation of c&p and karma tracking. As to the plan SS is currently mulling, the only people enjoying the new mechanics will be the same crowd already flourishing in Open--so why bother developing a mechanic they don't particularly need? …

Maybe FD is trying to attract new players and keep them in Open Mode. Maybe they are trying to keep those in Open Mode in Open Mode? Maybe the Open Mode population isn't exactly flourishing?

FD has the statistics, we can only speculate and lean back watching what happens.

And I got the impression that FD listens to those of the PvP community that wanted complete freedom in what they are doing until the beginning of 2016. The last year FD seemed to realize that there is something wrong. FD wants to save the game and some parts of the PvP community is doing everything they can to destroy the game by being greedy and not accepting that their actions are driving players away from the game.

In the end a harsh C&P system and a harsh karma system might be the best option for the PvP community, the other choices are probably worse.

We will see how this turns out.

 

[Goose4291]

I don't see how being unable to constantly destroy cargo ships without repercussion equates to being unable to credibly threaten to destroy any individual ship. The possibility of being forced to take a karma hit in order to retain credibility as a pirate brings some quite realistic risk to piracy and ensures that both pirate and victim want to avoid anybody blowing up. Perhaps there will be the odd wannabe pirate who can't stomach being labelled a murderer when the time comes, but nobody ever said being a pirate was supposed to be easy.

The lower level karma repercussions are likely to be things such as being refused docking in high security systems. Which frankly seem like reasonable results of playing as a pirate anyway.

Because both would result in negative karma being attributed, so potentially a pirate at a CG who encounters enough 'runners' would show up on the karma system in the same way a murder hobo would. And thats without touching on how those who are RPing a blockading force would likewise flag up.

Sandro said they wanted to keep things ingame. I doubt we'll be seeing any automated shadow bans.

He also said that if the ingame punishments dont work, they can always slide in options, such as shadowbans.

 

[Mohrgan]

He also said that if the ingame punishments dont work, they can always slide in options, such as shadowbans.

If that is what has caused this shadow ban hysteria, I don't know what to say.

 

[Goose4291]

If that is what has caused this shadow ban hysteria, I don't know what to say.

It was more the follow ups to it and all the nipple-stroking esque posts by the 'ban pvp brigade' fantasising about getting all the undesirables out of the game.

And before you think thats hysteria, remember frontier listens to that element of the community quite a lot, as we saw last July when they cried, moaned and caterwauled so much that Frontier over-rode the BGS play of one of the playergroups who'd shutdown a CG.

I think you misunderstood my earlier comments regarding the stream sniping thing. What I was saying was that 'unknown' streamers had been suffering from it for weeks and no reaction came from fdev even though they were reporting it, whereas one stream snipe of a 'big deal in the community' resulted in a ridiculous by comparison reaction on fdevs part.

 

[Gunnet]

Because both would result in negative karma being attributed, so potentially a pirate at a CG who encounters enough 'runners' would show up on the karma system in the same way a murder hobo would. And thats without touching on how those who are RPing a blockading force would likewise flag up.

Negative karma will almost certainly decay over time and/or be reversible with other actions. That coupled with the fact that it's (yet again) designed to track trends rather than punish individual incidents should mean a pirate who destroys several ships in one unusually bloody session will be fine. Perhaps at the worst they would have to 'lay low' for a while afterwards until the heat died down? But that still just seems like more realism to me.

As for "blockading" CGs, well, they're called community goals, not community contests. Indiscriminately killing players who are trying to participate in a community event is griefing and should be treated as such. If a CG is designed to be opposed, there will be an opposing CG for people to contribute to.

He also said that if the ingame punishments dont work, they can always slide in options, such as shadowbans.

He did say that. I guess whether or not that happens will depend on how much of a hint people can take about what kind of behaviour (and how much of it) is unacceptable. If it does, it won't be the PvE players who are to blame. It will be the subset of PvP players who are already saying what amounts to "you'll never stop me constantly ganking whoever I want unless you ban me".

 

[Mohrgan]

It was more the follow ups to it and all the nipple-stroking esque posts by the 'ban pvp brigade' fantasising about getting all the undesirables out of the game.

And before you think thats hysteria, remember frontier listens to that element of the community quite a lot, as we saw last July when they cried, moaned and caterwauled so much that Frontier over-rode the BGS play of one of the playergroups to shutdown a CG.

I think you misunderstood my earlier comments regarding the stream sniping thing. What I was saying was that 'unknown' streamers had been suffering from it for weeks and no reaction came from fdev even though they were reporting it, whereas one stream snipe of a 'big deal in the community' resulted in a ridiculous by comparison reaction on fdevs part.

FD have proven to listen to the PvP Community quite well. I approve of all listening. Separate what FD are saying, from what the crowd is saying. The crowd is just noise.

I have witnessed some ridiculous reactions from the PvP community too. The continuous baying for FD to mete out harsh punishments for combat logging, ganking sprees to highlight a mechanic that was already being nerfed. So there is no innocent party here. Focusing on an edge case, brings the entire conversation out of focus.

 

[Zambrick]

Increasing the rebuy costs of a ship is all well and good, but in order for that penalty to be felt, the ship must first be destroyed. Who's going to do that? Certainly not a trader or a newbie, so who? Also, loss of docking privileges is largely irrelevant. Why would they need to dock? They won't need to repair their ship. Fit energy weapons and a fuel scoop and you're golden. If the only thing you do in the game is sit in starter systems destroying new players, why would you ever need to dock?

Thats not up to the Karma system to determine. That would be whatever C&P system FDEV chooses to enforce. Maybe after going nutso for a month straight it sends super mega killers who knows. But it cannot be a guaranteed kill by an NPC that does it. The Pilots Fed could put a 10 million credit Player collectable bounty on the persons head. That will get people to chase them.

Whatever it is, it wont be the Karma System that enforces the punishment. It will be the C&P portion and we have as of yet to breach that subject.

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But not every player is like that though. They're all different and there are strong RP centric ones, genuine powerplayers and 'honest' pirates, to name but a few player types, all of whom get lumped into this 'real life sociopathic griefer' trope that gets trotted out here in every single discussion.

The problems start when you begin impinging on their playstyles, which is where an poorly defined karma system is going to cause issues.

There most defiantly are great RPers out there sticking to one story and doing it right. For every one of you thats fulfilling the role there are 2 or 3 out there mining salt.

This system will also allow the RP Criminals to see who is causing trouble and allow you the opportunity to self police the situation. Maybe get some of that good bounty money yourselves.

I have been waiting to see a huge Pirate RP group control their own portion of the bubble. Its hard to do when the largest PG of people claiming to be PVPers are actually just out to collect salt wherever and whenever they can.

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I think you'll find it was Sandro who floated the 'incentives to play in open' concepts, a while back (in relation to powerplay).

It was met by more faux angst ridden breast clutching than you'd see at an amateur dramatics Shakespearean adaptation.

The Karma system can do that.

The Incentive being if you want to RP being a Pirate and your Karma gets low enough you have access to more Pirate like loadouts/weaons and ship variants.

Same can be said with good Karma.

It does not have to be a punishment for every aspect of it.

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Personally I hope I run into him. My father told me on his deathbed that I had an older half-brother and that I should always look out for him on my travels as a trader in my mom's old ship. I think he wanted me to give him a hug, or was it 'get me his gun'? 'See him you run'? I never could understand dad's backwater accent.



My fear hear is that players will seek immunity by intentionally trading in weak ships. It opens the door to playing with impunity to any real danger. I think what a person could afford should be the real judge in that case.



I've been beating that same shtick for days now. No one cares. People who don't play in open and have never been a pvp pirate themselves are convinced that if you're good at pirating you'll never have to kill or maim. I can't seem to explain the realities of it.

Well not let it become a fear.

We can start a another post not with the intention of gathering salt, but one that can allow a better experience for everyone who wants both PVP and PVE.


The problem is we would need an impartial Mod to wipe out the quick Jabs people might throw in to disrupt the process.

 

[Zambrick]

It just sounds like irrational fears. There are some offenses that could rise to the occasion of a shadow ban. Let's say Combat Logging. So this guy runs around CL'ing on everyone. I'm sure I've heard you call for a ban more than once for CL'ing. Once the Notoriety System catches on, this Commander finds the world around starts to treat him differently. If he persists, a shadow ban is in order. Why not for the Seal Clubber? Why should a pest be protected, and an annoyance be punished? By the way, I certainly consider Shadow Banning as an in-game punishment.

Would it be enough if everybody had to play by the same rules? I think that would certainly be the case. The idea here is not to find and punish malcontents, it's offer the general population of players, that there are consequences to being naughty, in game. That both sides of the equation have an even vaguely similar level of risk. The bad boy should have some skin in the game. If that's too much to bear, then you have a interest in game, that doesn't make for a healthy population in open. The actual reason this topic comes up.

This topic is brought up to solve a, I'll even concede some perception issues, problem with the open environment. Most people discussing this topic realize, that in order to get more players into open, open has to have some control over detrimental behavior. As I see it we have two choices, a C&P/Notoriety that offers all players the confidence that actions have reactions, or a PvE-Open option on the Log in Screen. A PvE-Open would allow those looking for a more civilized version of the game, and open would stay what it is.

Combat logging just tweaks my nipples. I hate it when I see it.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Yeah, he's the a-hole but you want 1.68 billion real people to die. Are you ok?

And again, I don't think he said anything about killing squishy noobs. But there is a solo play isn't there? And it's not going anywhere.

I'm fine, and I'd be just as fine with 4.22 billion fewer people. Humanity is something of a plague and the herd would benefit from some culling anyways.

And that's just one example out of many that have been showcased in these very forums. And while it very likely represents only the smallest percentage of the total player base... ever have a mouse die in the wall of your house? It's really hard to track down where that scent is coming from, but it doesn't matter where you go, you still smell it. Not that different in this case, really. The bad examples shine every bit as brightly as the best examples, but the stink of them is hard to forget.

 

[jasonbarron]

I'm fine, and I'd be just as fine with 4.22 billion fewer people. Humanity is something of a plague and the herd would benefit from some culling anyways.

And that's just one example out of many that have been showcased in these very forums. And while it very likely represents only the smallest percentage of the total player base... ever have a mouse die in the wall of your house? It's really hard to track down where that scent is coming from, but it doesn't matter where you go, you still smell it. Not that different in this case, really. The bad examples shine every bit as brightly as the best examples, but the stink of them is hard to forget.

I've been reading your last few posts on the subject with a fascination akin to watching an insect feed. I really do hope that an eventual karma system convinces you to come crawling out from under your rock where we can actually cross paths

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Using exploits is the one place where shadow bans would be appropriate. You'd agree if the exploit in question was combat logging, surely?

I've asked this question a few times. Strangely I never get an answer either. I suppose the karma system punishes some players correctly and others not.

 

[Zambrick]

I've asked this question a few times. Strangely I never get an answer either. I suppose the karma system punishes some players correctly and others not.

The Karma system punishes no one. It just tracks it. Everyone is throwing around shadow bans as if it would be something normal. I am sure they will just do the exact same thing that they do now and shadow ban people manually. But if anyone wants to question whose right or wrong or it was a mistake or not, then the karma system would have all the data.

They have all that data now, but its probably not being presented in an easy to use fashion and is also not available for public use. The Karma system can be used as a tool for tracking as well as a tool for in game enhancement.

C&P can be effected by Karma system, but the C&P portion would be standardized and you would know what you were getting into before you commit said crime. It could tell you that you are like 2 negative Karma widgets away from having your insurance buy back cost more.

 

[Smecca is BMFE]

All I want to know is I'm still going to be able to pull over the Shield Justice Warriors in their Cutters and Corvettes to humble their ridiculous builds, without getting banned.

If I can still do that, then I don't really care. Put a huge bounty on my head and make me rebuy my ship at full price *if you can kill me*. I'll earn that 70 million back in a jif.

 

[jasonbarron]

All I want to know is I'm still going to be able to pull over the Shield Justice Warriors in their Cutters and Corvettes to humble their ridiculous builds, without getting banned.

If I can still do that, then I don't really care. Put a huge bounty on my head and make me rebuy my ship at full price *if you can kill me*. I'll earn that 70 million back in a jif.

And this is exactly why this notion that a karmic tracking system is going to somehow bring people back from group, or keep them from leaving in the first place, is so naive. If I want to ruin these people's day (and yes, this thread has almost succeeded in turning me to the dark side), nothing short of banning me is going to stop me from doing it. None of these players are going to give me that shot, regardless of whatever system is eventually implemented. I can see how a c&p system could be implemented to improve the overall game exerience for everybody, but the notion that it's going to *fix* Open is pretty amusing.

Rep for the term "Shield Justice Warriors." That made me chuckle.

 

[Smecca is BMFE]

And this is exactly why this notion that a karmic tracking system is going to somehow bring people back from group, or keep them from leaving in the first place, is so naive. If I want to ruin these people's day (and yes, this thread has almost succeeded in turning me to the dark side), nothing short of banning me is going to stop me from doing it. None of these players are going to give me that shot, regardless of whatever system is eventually implemented. I can see how a c&p system could be implemented to improve the overall game exerience for everybody, but the notion that it's going to *fix* Open is pretty amusing.

Rep for the term "Shield Justice Warriors." That made me chuckle.

I was reading back a few pages and saw one of your posts regarding the crux of this post. And you're right. No long term punishment for the killers is going to make anyone want to risk their precious ships, or cargo, or credits in open. They'll stay right where they are. And the sharks will just find a way to keep killing, donning their giant bounties as crowns.

And yea dude, you remember those SJWs? Back when the shield booster nerf was up in the air? Man I swear, they weren't gonna stop crying till FD gave them a 4th ring of shields

 

[[VR] Merkir]

All I want to know is I'm still going to be able to pull over the Shield Justice Warriors in their Cutters and Corvettes to humble their ridiculous builds, without getting banned.

If I can still do that, then I don't really care. Put a huge bounty on my head and make me rebuy my ship at full price *if you can kill me*. I'll earn that 70 million back in a jif.

I'm hoping that's exactly what will happen. Yes, you'll get bad karma, and the attitude you show above is great because you've already identified there will be consequences from a new C&P system. This type of attitude I can respect. I would hope we get a full C&P&R system, the "&R" being rewards as well, where for example your ill-gotten gains and bad behaviour means you're more readily accepted in the "bad part of town" potentially opening up other areas of game play, access to different starports, black-market engineers, whatever.

And this is exactly why this notion that a karmic tracking system is going to somehow bring people back from group, or keep them from leaving in the first place, is so naive. If I want to ruin these people's day (and yes, this thread has almost succeeded in turning me to the dark side), nothing short of banning me is going to stop me from doing it. None of these players are going to give me that shot, regardless of whatever system is eventually implemented. I can see how a c&p system could be implemented to improve the overall game exerience for everybody, but the notion that it's going to *fix* Open is pretty amusing.

I doubt many people on this thread have said it's going to "fix" open. The main point is that almost anything is better than the complete lack of any believable C&P system right now.

Question though, do you really want nothing changed at all?
Do you want no possibility of having a realistic environment in which to play the bad guy?