The Egg at the Roof of the Galaxy

Guys I am super sorry for the quadruple posts! Moderation means all of my posts go to a queue! (I've marked them as double posts)

The gentlemen marx referred to this issue as a 'bug' so I wished to contribute.

Thank you again :)
 
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Sorry, but I'm not suggesting it's a bug, but I'm saying it. Ever since they first showcased what was then a concept during the livestream, Frontier have always said that FSD supercharging is intended to give a one-time boost. Unfortunately, they made some programming errors, which have led to the unintended effect of being able to get two boosts from the same star. That was, to be best of my knowledge, never an intended feature in the design. As such, it's a bug. If you say that functionality which was unintended and runs contrary to parts of the intended design of a gameplay mechanic is a feature, and not a bug, then I'm afraid we're working with different definitions of the terms.

You can call it what you wish, but unless and until FDev addresses the matter, it's an opinion. If this "bug" were to be kept and made an official game mechanic, it would be the second time such a thing happened with regard to neutron boosts. Which is to say, there's precedent for these sorts of things. You have no idea how this particular mechanic is going to be treated, and neither do I.

Also. FSD jumps occur at the start of the countdown. It is at this point that the fuel for the jump is used, along with any boosting effect. But you're still at the star. The additional boost occurs within that countdown, while you are still within the influence of the neutron star. You can similarly fuel scoop during an FSD sequence, if you are so inclined. My point is, the behavior is internally consistent. It's not an exploit, but rather the logical result of an established game mechanic. You're at the star, you've used your boost, and you have exactly five seconds to scoop another one before you are outside of the system, assuming you've positioned yourself correctly. So I disagree that this is a programming error. They did it properly, and just didn't think of every possible way it could be done.


This was why I said that double-boosting is a bug. I think I've explained it, and my earlier point, clearly enough by now, so my explaining it further would be a moot point. Like I said, my concern was that utilising this flaw might not be possible in the future, which would mean there would be a record that's not possible to reproduce, let alone beat. Looking back on it now, I think that using the phrase "legitimate record" was unfortunate there, so for that, I apologize. (Bear in mind, English is not my first language.) It would have been illegitimate if you used third-party exploits, which you didn't.

Like Corbin Moran has said, the record will be noted as having utilised double-boosting, and I think the matter is settled well with that.

Agreed. (About the matter being settled. Your English seems fine.)

And I absolutely want fairness in the records. A record is pointless if it can't be beaten. If they remove the ability to double boost, then I no longer consider our record valid. I feel similarly about procedural vs. non procedural object records. If it's non-procedural, I don't feel it should count.
 
And I absolutely want fairness in the records. A record is pointless if it can't be beaten. If they remove the ability to double boost, then I no longer consider our record valid. I feel similarly about procedural vs. non procedural object records. If it's non-procedural, I don't feel it should count.

I think this is a good way to look at it. From what I know of Cmdr Taen this is the honest truth. In other words he is operating within the parameters given, or else someone else would. That being said, a more interesting debate is whether of not there should be different systems recorded for a return journey. In other words system A is reachable, but is a one-way suicide trip, and system B is visited and returned from. I don't think that one is more impressive than another, because they each offer differences. I'm glad we are discussing this because this is why the above/below records are more complex than the distances in X/Z - and imo why they should also be more coveted than they currently are.

For that I commend Cmdr Taen and Cmdr EtherealCereal for there accomplishments - which was outstanding regardless of how they achieved it. For that they should be appreciated, especially because they sacrificed themselves and ships to push the knowledge of exploration.

-Cmdr Parabolus
 
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I'm glad we are discussing this because this is why the above/below records are more complex than the distances in X/Z - and imo why they should also be more coveted than they currently are.

From the activity here today I would say that they are quite coveted ;)
 
That being said, a more interesting debate is whether of not there should be different systems recorded for a return journey. ...

This was my reaction when I first read this thread, rather than whether double boosting should count.

Cmdr Been in stasis for 2 yrs and just learning everything again
 
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I will see if we can sort different records, but to be honest and I will play judge here even it's not something i like to do.

If double boost were to be removed, Frontier should have done it a long time ago and before release. There was plenty of patches in beta, multiple reports and discussions. If something goes live, it's live.
 
You can call it what you wish, but unless and until FDev addresses the matter, it's an opinion.
You know, if this was what you wanted to say in the first place, then you shouldn't have asked me why I said it's a bug. The "this matter is wholly subjective" argument only works if you start with it right away, not if you bring it out later. In any case, I've said why I consider it a bug, and so far, the argument of those who don't appears to boil down to "Frontier have left it in, so it's not". Like I said, different definitions.

Also. FSD jumps occur at the start of the countdown. It is at this point that the fuel for the jump is used, along with any boosting effect. But you're still at the star. The additional boost occurs within that countdown, while you are still within the influence of the neutron star. You can similarly fuel scoop during an FSD sequence, if you are so inclined. My point is, the behavior is internally consistent. It's not an exploit, but rather the logical result of an established game mechanic. You're at the star, you've used your boost, and you have exactly five seconds to scoop another one before you are outside of the system, assuming you've positioned yourself correctly. So I disagree that this is a programming error. They did it properly, and just didn't think of every possible way it could be done.
However, this behaviour also causes other problems, not just double-boosting. It is entirely possible that you start a jump, consume enough fuel that you wouldn't be able to start another jump, then lose connection to the server(s) before you finish the jump and arrive at your destination, and when you reconnect, be stranded at your original location through no fault of your own. That last part is important. For times when people get stranded because they misjumped their syntheses, that's fine.
So the problems with the current behaviour of jump effects (fuel, supercharging and boost get consumed at the start, not the end) are that you can get stranded without error on your part, and you can break the "one star, one-time boost" design decision.

Mind you, a likely reason for these have gone unfixed so far could be that it might not be an easy fix to change how the game handles FSD jumps. It certainly wouldn't have been a priority fix, what with multicrew (the headlining feature of 2.3) having been seriously broken at the start. Fixing the typo in NS/WD boost ranges must have been an easy fix, and there was a rather glaring design error there: when the devs said they originally intended players not to use this as a means of travel, just as a fun gimmick. (Back then, when they said this I did a facepalm. It should have been obvious during planning that players would look to use any increase in jump range as a means of shortening travel.)
But through an accident, players got to try (during the beta!) how things would work with much larger than intended boosts, and the majority liked it. In the end, the developers decided to change their minds.

Speaking of precedents, it wouldn't be the first time they've left in such bugs for months, only to fix them several patches later. Oh, and double-boosting was AFAIK discovered around four months after supercharging's original beta ended, so it's not like it was a trivial thing to figure out. A person who hasn't heard about double-boosting from someone else would either have to figure it out accidentally, or have to be looking for a way to break the sequence.

If you wish to use the original boost typo as a parallel, then the devs would now say "we originally wanted it to be a one-time boost, but now we are fine with it being two boosts". I'm not saying they couldn't or shouldn't say this. My point is that they should clear this up. Until they do, it's uncertain whether double-boosting will stay in the future or not, hence why I raised my concern about this aspect of the record.

But that part has been settled, and I believe I've more than sufficiently explained the reasons behind why I said that double-boosting is a bug, which you originally asked of me. I might have written too much about this already (if so, apologies), so I won't reply to this anymore, since going on at length about what double-boosting is should probably not be in this thread.


So, moving on...
I'm glad we are discussing this because this is why the above/below records are more complex than the distances in X/Z - and imo why they should also be more coveted than they currently are.
Yeah, that's due to the geometry and shape of the galaxy. It's easier to find more defined "end points" in the other two coordinates because of this, and I'm fairly certain those have already been found. However, since the galaxy is flat enough on the top and bottom on a comparatively huge area, it should still be possible to find another record still farther out, if one spends a lot of effort searching the galaxy map and travelling to possible locations. Mind you, it's not something I'd wish to do again, but it's nice to see that there's still interest (and results!) in this, and it's not a "done" niche.
I wonder if there are differences in how the galactic edge is generated at the rim than at the ceiling / bottom though. Namely, the number of neutron stars. Of course, it might simply be due to the fact that the possible search area for coordinate Y extremes is much larger than that for coordinate X/Z extremes.

From the activity here today I would say that they are quite coveted ;)
Yeah, it was a fun to see posts that the previous records for the lowest and highest Y coordinates visited were broken on the same day. It's better that there were multiple people looking to do so.
 
serious?
such a discussion about this accomplishment ?

these guys didnt harm anyone and used whats possible to do it. period

well done! :)
 
Much obliged you guys, thank you for the support! I think we're going to call ourselves the Space Lemmings after this ordeal. Taen came up with the name, seems fitting given what we did. ;)
 
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