The problem with the new C&P improvements

[kofeyh]

Such as?

Don't worry, Frontier could just apply this to commanders only, so there is no penalty killing cops in a RES site in solo in your PVE battleconda. I mean it's not like Frontier aren't essentially saying, guess what? Just play solo now because there is literally no consequences to actions. Ever.

Oh. They did. Right..

What is this even supposed to mean?

It's like you're saying the game's not dangerous unless you can attack anyone without any repercussions.

In solo, you know can. You can't apply such rules to commanders and then ignore AI. It's not consistent.

 

[RagingxPenguin]

Such as?

Utilize the Karma system. If it is capable of seeing what you are doing

IE
ganking low tier ships in a ship far larger, then have levels of punitive action.

After so many player kills then inact the rebuy transferring from ship to ship.
If that doesn't slow people down then maybe pull docking privileges in that area at security systems.
If that fails. A system can go hostile to you, or start increasing the rebuy percentage.

Or. Heres a fun one. Chronic ganker that's murdering ships below their level
The name goes on the mission board. Multiple players can accept the mission. Mission tells you EXACTLY what system they are in at all times. Mission stays active for 24 hours. Have to get the mission again from that system. Can't gank of people are hunting you.
Or something. Its late. My gin is empty.

 

[bitstorm]

In solo, you know can. You can't apply such rules to commanders and then ignore AI. It's not consistent.

I don't get what you're saying.

That it's less dangerous in solo than open or something?

 

[bitstorm]

Utilize the Karma system. If it is capable of seeing what you are doing

IE
ganking low tier ships in a ship far larger, then have levels of punitive action.

After so many player kills then inact the rebuy transferring from ship to ship.
If that doesn't slow people down then maybe pull docking privileges in that area at security systems.
If that fails. A system can go hostile to you, or start increasing the rebuy percentage.

Or. Heres a fun one. Chronic ganker that's murdering ships below their level
The name goes on the mission board. Multiple players can accept the mission. Mission tells you EXACTLY what system they are in at all times. Mission stays active for 24 hours. Have to get the mission again from that system. Can't gank of people are hunting you.
Or something. Its late. My gin is empty.

How does that solve the suicidewinder issue though?

I mean that's the context for the rebuy mechanism isn't it?

You are talking about a C+P/Karma system and we know that is already on the way, the rebuy mechanism discussed at Lavecon isn't the C+P system.

It has already been suggested by Frontier that ship "power" discrepancies, Corvette =ganks=> Sidewinder will result in karma loss.

 

[RagingxPenguin]

What is this even supposed to mean?

It's like you're saying the game's not dangerous unless you can attack anyone without any repercussions.

No I'm saying there should not be reprecussions. Don't twist my words
Current idea that has been tabled is not good.

 

[lenna]

I don't get what you're saying.

That it's less dangerous in solo than open or something?

They are simply complaining because PvP is being targeted by the C&P changes... my response suck it up and take the medicine... it is long overdue.

I believe the changes are intended to primarily target griefers and gankers based on what I have heard but Combat Loggers may also be affected.

 

[bitstorm]

No I'm saying there should not be reprecussions. Don't twist my words
Current idea that has been tabled is not good.

Should NOT or should be? I am still confused.

Clearly there should be repercussions for attacking innocents in lawful areas, it's a no brainer isn't it?

 

[kofeyh]

I don't get what you're saying.

That it's less dangerous in solo than open or something?

If I am in a big ship and I clobber a commander, as an example, the bounty is far higher. If I am in a big ship, and I clobber a cop, it's not.

So if we are going to start to be highly inconsistent with the law, how is this suddenly solving actual issues? Anyone who has an actual issue with PVP left Open years ago. Frontier have invented an idea about two years too late. It's almost an irrelevant change now. It's a solution looking for a specific problem, that's not really the issue.

People don't want to be shot at. Whether this ship is large or small doesn't really change that. So instead we end up with a highly specific scenario where suddenly the rules are different.

If you are in solo, there is no consequence of being in a pimped out large ship slaughtering cops in large ship. And that should attract the same bounty, as that would be consisten. In solo, nothing can claim that bounty, so it ceases to be relevant.

It's literally aimed at "solving" large ship based PVP killing commanders, at a time when most have left open. It's just a redundant highly specific change that isn't consistent.

I am all for a better criminal code. But it has to be consistent. This change isn't. And it's essentially redundant in anything other than Open. If it was consistent across AI and CMDRs alike, I'd have far less issue with it.

Singling out specific scenarios like this, is just like the speed limit change at stations. It has the same sort of trivial ways to be defeated and I firmly believe we're going to see that same end result. It doesn't fix anything. It just makes the situation even more complicated and harder for Frontier to reliably define who is "at fault" for law enforcement.

And that's a great example. Understand that ramming at stations will now incure huge costs to large ship owners who are speeding at get hit. That's going to be a thing in open now. These highly situational law changes have really really bad outcomes generally.

This one, will be no exception.

 

[RagingxPenguin]

How does that solve the suicidewinder issue though?

I mean that's the context for the rebuy mechanism isn't it?

You are talking about a C+P/Karma system and we know that is already on the way, the rebuy mechanism discussed at Lavecon isn't the C+P system.

It has already been suggested by Frontier that ship "power" discrepancies will result in karma loss.

I've never cleared my bounties with a sidewinder so I don't know what to tell you.
I'm sure theres a better way.

 

[Soopyyy]

Utilize the Karma system. If it is capable of seeing what you are doing

IE
ganking low tier ships in a ship far larger, then have levels of punitive action.

After so many player kills then inact the rebuy transferring from ship to ship.
If that doesn't slow people down then maybe pull docking privileges in that area at security systems.
If that fails. A system can go hostile to you, or start increasing the rebuy percentage.

Or. Heres a fun one. Chronic ganker that's murdering ships below their level
The name goes on the mission board. Multiple players can accept the mission. Mission tells you EXACTLY what system they are in at all times. Mission stays active for 24 hours. Have to get the mission again from that system. Can't gank of people are hunting you.
Or something. Its late. My gin is empty.

I agree, and I hope that is the next step.
It seems you're not against the idea of the rebuy thing, just not as an immediate implication. Which I can understand and support.

 

[bigity]

I've never cleared my bounties with a sidewinder so I don't know what to tell you.
I'm sure theres a better way.

Just fly around for a week with slightly more easy to win interdictions. That's about it. Avoid stations in the systems where you have a local bounty.

 

[kofeyh]

They are simply complaining because PvP is being targeted by the C&P changes... my response suck it up and take the medicine... it is long overdue.

I believe the changes are intended to primarily target griefers and gankers based on what I have heard but Combat Loggers may also be affected.

I have no problems with the law as long as it's consistent. Did you know if you drive a cutter in open, pass through the mailslot at speed and get rammed, you will now face a huge bounty in Open? Instead of the eagle driver?

Does anyone, at all, have any idea of how stupidly easily this will be cheesed. It's not fixing anything. It's just like frontier's knee-jerk speeding law at stations. It's going to have very bad consequences. I am predicting we will see a ton of forum posts where people have ended up essentially wearing all the costs of someone else's behaviour. That's so incredibly exploitable.

I don't like incosnstent laws for that very reason. It's going to create even more headaches in future. But this is how Frontier solves problems. By highly specific changes that, essentially, end up just making the game even more intolerable. And harder to fix in future.

 

[RagingxPenguin]

Should NOT or should be? I am still confused.

Clearly there should be repercussions for attacking innocents in lawful areas, it's a no brainer isn't it?

Gimme 12 hours to sleep the gin off. I butchered that sentence.
There should be consequences. Again. I love the global bounty idea.
I do not like the rebuy mechanic where your rebuy follows you over to what ever ship you are flying.
No players should not be able to clear bounty in sidewinders.

 

[lenna]

If I am in a big ship and I clobber a commander, as an example, the bounty is far higher. If I am in a big ship, and I clobber a cop, it's not.

Clobber enough cops and the relevant faction(s) will treat you as an enemy.

Attacking fellow commanders is not the same as attacking AI either, the AI is there to support/hinder commanders and the existing in-game C&P and Reputation systems are more than adequate for that purpose. You attack another commander you adversely affect their progress - the same can not be said for attacking AI (they are simply spawned for one purpose - content for commanders, in one way or another).

The forthcoming changes are effectively an inter-player reputation management system which before now has been in dire need of addressing.

There is no valid excuse to support allowing ganking or griefing to go largely uncontrolled, which is primarily where the C&P changes kick in.

As for inconsistent laws, there are plenty of examples of comparable "legitimate" inconsistencies in real life.

 

[RagingxPenguin]

I agree, and I hope that is the next step.
It seems you're not against the idea of the rebuy thing, just not as an immediate implication. Which I can understand and support.

I don't gank low level ships. I try to find even fights. They may not always be consensual but they are hardly greifing. But if a CG is low tier player heavy
Ill grab a smaller ship to even the field. But my issue is if I die in that cheaper ship, am I paying the FDL rebuy?
My goal wasn't to avoid the paying the fines or avoiding the bounty.
But to provide a more even fight whats near me.

 

[kofeyh]

Clobber enough cops and the relevant faction(s) will treat you as an enemy.

They do now. So this is just reinforcing how irrelevant it is, outside of a specific scenario.

Attacking fellow commanders is not the same as attacking AI either, the AI is there to support/hinder commanders..

No, it is the same. And can be for the same reasons. Is a player blockade "hindering" or not? Where do you draw the line? Piracy? Outright gank? All of these can be done by AI too. The only difference is that the ship is a holo box. That's how the law works now. It doesn't care if AI or Commander. It's consistent across both. But soon it's not going to be consistent. And it's going to be highly exploitable.

Understand I am all for law improvements. But they MUST be consistent. Otherwise we end up with stupid outcomes like the station speed limits, that people refuse to honour, are killed and then protest their innocence. Guess what, now a large ship driver carries even more cost, if they are rammed.

So what is that fixing? How is this solving anything. PVPers will simple shift to smaller ships. And game the system. Even more so than is happening now. This happens when laws aren't consistent. They have unintended consequences. And I am going to say, right now, thisnis absolutely going to have a TON of unintended consequences.

Gauruntee it.

 

[bitstorm]

If I am in a big ship and I clobber a commander, as an example, the bounty is far higher. If I am in a big ship, and I clobber a cop, it's not.

Hmm, I am assuming you are you referring to the Pilot's Federation bounty, which Penguin said he was perfectly ok with.

It's just the rebuy mechanism he wasn't ok with. So I think what you are saying doesn't answer my question asking what Penguin was referring to.



But regardless on what you ARE saying (again assuming that it's the PF bounty)..

I do agree that one rule for players and another for NPCs isn't great, but this started waay back, first instance I remember was when people complained that NPCs would "kill steal" by getting a hit in after the CMDR. And so it was changed so if an NPC and a player both attack a ship, the player always gets the bounty and the NPC never does.

I was very strongly against this change at the time (can probably still find the posts) but in hindsight I have to admit, as distasteful as it seemed, it solved the issues and no-one complained about it afterwards.

Players were happier and in the end it's a game for humans not NPCs and as such differentiation has to be accepted, simply because it's a game that's mean't to be fun, and not a no-compromise simulation.

So I do feel that boat, that it has to be consistent, sailed a long time ago.

Although from a lore perspective it's not actually inconsistent, the day 1 manual said (and still does) that NPCs arent part of the Pilot's Federation, players are..

Singling out specific scenarios like this, is just like the speed limit change at stations. It has the same sort of trivial ways to be defeated and I firmly believe we're going to see that same end result. It doesn't fix anything. It just makes the situation even more complicated and harder for Frontier to reliably define who is "at fault" for law enforcement.

On this, as long as we are in a better position than before I think that's fine. It can always be tweaked, or even removed if it's genuinely so bad. Evolving a solution step by step is totally fine.

And that's a great example. Understand that ramming at stations will now incure huge costs to large ship owners who are speeding at get hit. That's going to be a thing in open now. These highly situational law changes have really really bad outcomes generally.

This one, will be no exception.

Perhaps it's not there for ramming, we have no detail at all right now.

 

[FrogsFriend]

...But my issue is if I die in that cheaper ship, am I paying the FDL rebuy?
....

Only if you accumulated any part of that outstanding Bounty using the FDL.

 

[kofeyh]

I just think this isn't going to end well. Would love to be wrong. But I think people are grabbing on to this with both hands believing it solves all the problems.

No, it maybe addresses one specific thing, but it's opening the door on others, and solves little else. Again, don't confuse me with some nutjob with anger management issues; I just believe this isn't solving anything, and it's much like the station speed limit. Designed to solve a very specific issue, that has gone one to create so so many more.

I'm not convinced this is even a sane way of dealing with random acts of violence in Open.

I am pleased Frontier is taking this seriously, I just don't even remotely agree it's actually helping. I think it's going to create a whole new raft of problems. Again, would be very happy to be wrong. But history suggests I'm probably not going to be.

 

[lenna]

But they MUST be consistent.

Short version... you are talking if you expect all changes to be consistent across the board with no consideration for meaningful differences... PvP in ED terms is technically intra-faction fratricide since all commanders (and only commanders) are fully paid members of the Pilots Federation. As such, the apparent inconsistency is actually consistent since it is technically the Pilots Federation dealing with internal affairs and the same rules apply to all commanders.

Consider the situation comparable to the rules of the Continental grounds in the John Wick movies. In John Wick - At a certain level, the rules seem inconsistent since they are prohibiting assassination with-in a group of assassins/criminals but the rules are there and breaking them (e.g. killing on Continental grounds or failing to honour a marker) makes you forfeit the privileges of having use of Continental grounds and facilities.

In ED we are not a group of assassins (at least in the universal sense) but we are a group of freelance pilots and there being in-game rules for our interactions (and appropriate consequences for breaking those rules) is long overdue.