Star Citizen Thread v6

[Ian Skippy]

Can I just inquire just why so many gamers think that what devs say about releases schedules are set in stone and any slippage is awful and lies? I'm not just referring to SC here, seen it with other games too. I'm talking as someone still hoping in vain for HL2 Ep3 and/or HL3!!! Now THAT's a wait!!

Also not white knighting SC either as I'm considering bailing my measly £23 out. But I know of very few games that are bug free (to be fair Elite has it's fair share of bugs and problems even now, some long standing), MANY are delayed and have day one issues. I mean this was an ambitious project to begin with and got bigger and more ambitions (clearly part of the problem) but that doesn't come without issues (read the earlier post with the Mass Effect Andromeda story).

I crowd funded the game Project Cars and it bit off more than it could chew and a LOT of cool stuff was dropped and some didn't work right and the game was delayed several times. Game development is hard even WITH a competent leader and clearly Chris is not quite in that calibre is he?!

Bottom line is those who "say" they want the game done and released, yet continue to stir are only going to hasten the seeming inevitability the game will never see the light of day and CiG implode. Who wins from that?.....no-one. So....why?


edit I mean I'm here because I'm "exploring" right now in Elite...been waiting a LONG time for the chronically bad placeholder exploration/scanning mechanic to be fleshed out.....I know FD have not mentioned a schedule or if it even exists, but it's still crap.

Because when you say "its pretty much done, will be released next week" and it turns out a few months later you havent even got a plan yet then clearly it was a lie. When a kid tells the teacher he is 'almost done with the report' yet exactly zero words have been written, we all know the kid is lying and not suffering from 'a slipping deadline'. Why do people like you insist we hold people like CR to lower standards than a ten-year old?

 

[GaryII]

Because when you say "its pretty much done, will be released next week" and it turns out a few months later you havent even got a plan yet then clearly it was a lie. When a kid tells the teacher he is 'almost done with the report' yet exactly zero words have been written, we all know the kid is lying and not suffering from 'a slipping deadline'. Why do people like you insist we hold people like CR to lower standards than a ten-year old?

Great point!
Unfortunately here we are dealing with +150m of backers money...if we can believe that counter...

 

[Leper Messiah]

"Why do people like you insist we hold people like CR to lower standards than a ten-year old"


Because it's COMMON SENSE, CiG are attempting something far Far FAR more complex than anything a ten year old is expected to do....Jeez why do people like YOU insist on not understanding that?

 

[Ian Skippy]

"Why do people like you insist we hold people like CR to lower standards than a ten-year old"


Because it's COMMON SENSE, CiG are attempting something far Far FAR more complex than anything a ten year old is expected to do....Jeez why do people like YOU insist on not understanding that?

LOL!

When you say you are almost done and you later admit you have yet to start planning, you were lying. Dont matter how complex it is.

 

[GaryII]

"Why do people like you insist we hold people like CR to lower standards than a ten-year old"

Because it's COMMON SENSE, CiG are attempting something far Far FAR more complex than anything a ten year old is expected to do....Jeez why do people like YOU insist on not understanding that?

Yes, its common sense - we do not expect from ten year old to made space game, but from CR we expect to make space game

And now after 5 years we see that he has severe issues to do it, probably due several reasons - crazy feature creep, lack of any planning all those refactorings points to this..., overcomplected design, selected game engine that seems can not handle all that fidelity, team lacks talant and/or experience to make this game...

 

[Leper Messiah]

There are only about 10 frequent posters in here and I would venture only about half of them are really into the "Everything CiG does is bad / immoral / shady". So it is a tiny subset of gamers in here, nothing statistically significant.
The only difference is that round here... something radiates... (oops sorry, sidetracked) I mean that posting here, is a relatively unbalanced experience. Nobody needs to preface a post with their good backer credentials to avoid the wrath of the mob

I'm certain it's more than 10! But I do see your point, vocal minority and all that.

 

[marx]

Back in 2014 Elite Dangerous was delayed by a few weeks but still hit it's December release window, Star Citizen was supposed to hit full release around the same time yet here we are halfway through 2017 and it's still in alpha (if you are feeling generous)

The original estimated release date for ED's Kickstarter was March, so it wasn't delayed by a few weeks. However, Frontier have been upfront fairly early on that they're not going to make that date. To be fair, nearly every Kickstarter campaign's initial estimates turn out to have been optimistic. After all, devs are incentivized to promise dates that are as low as possible while still being believable.
Of course, Star Citizen is well past that territory by now.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Yes, its common sense - we do not expect from ten year old to made space game, but from CR we expect to make space game

And now after 5 years we see that he has severe issues to do it, probably due several reasons - crazy feature creep, lack of any planning all those refactorings points to this..., overcomplected design, selected game engine that seems can not handle all that fidelity, team lacks talant and/or experience to make this game...

Yes I know all that, technically he IS making a space game, just not hitting the schedule. Name me one ambitious project that hits it's schedules? It's right to be concerned and worried, but the game needs constructive criticism not some of the madness I read here!

either way I'd better shut up as I realise I've taken things off topic and most of the people I've aimed the post at I'm ignoring so.....blame boring exploring in Elite!

 

[Stigbob]

"Why do people like you insist we hold people like CR to lower standards than a ten-year old"


Because it's COMMON SENSE, CiG are attempting something far Far FAR more complex than anything a ten year old is expected to do....Jeez why do people like YOU insist on not understanding that?

Nobodies understanding of how long this should take matters, except CIG's and they are self evidently massively wrong in every one of their given estimations. Other than pay2win ship sales obviously which are always as punctual as the changing of the Guard.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes I know all that, technically he IS making a space game, just not hitting the schedule. Name me one ambitious project that hits it's schedules? It's right to be concerned and worried, but the game needs constructive criticism not some of the madness I read here!

either way I'd better shut up as I realise I've taken things off topic and most of the people I've aimed the post at I'm ignoring so.....blame boring exploring in Elite!

I don't think anyone is saying that delays aren't the norm in the business.

Its how CIG hype things are just around the corner and then fail to meet their own hype, and not just once or twice, but time and time again.

"Its great, we have it almost ready, yeah, just soon, you will see something at (event) and we hope to release on or around (date), in the meantime, here is a ship sale!" - then it doesn't happen, and it gets announced it will come later, but its all ok, because they are refactoring (Y) and they have this great new system which will be better than anything ever done before (insert made up word for something that has been done many times before). And then months pass, and the cycles begins again.

That is the reason for the snark and skepticism.

 

[Stigbob]

Yes I know all that, technically he IS making a space game, just not hitting the schedule. Name me one ambitious project that hits it's schedules? It's right to be concerned and worried, but the game needs constructive criticism not some of the madness I read here!

either way I'd better shut up as I realise I've taken things off topic and most of the people I've aimed the post at I'm ignoring so.....blame boring exploring in Elite!

Elite Dangerous made it's December 2014 release schedule.

Constructive criticism :

Don't repeatedly make wild estimates you can't keep or people will think you are in over your head, incompetent or lying.

 

[GaryII]

It's right to be concerned and worried, but the game needs constructive criticism not some of the madness I read here!

I do not see a lot of madness here, except when personal attack starts and people predict that CIG will go bankrupt tomorrow...

At least for me similar concerns like:
crazy feature creep, lack of any planning all those refactorings points to this..., overcomplected design, selected game engine that seems can not handle all that fidelity, team lacks talant and/or experience to make this game...
can add also shady marketing practices to get more money from backers

are very valid concerns...

Problem with SC fans are that they can not accept ANY criticism of the game.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Yes I know all that, technically he IS making a space game, just not hitting the schedule. Name me one ambitious project that hits it's schedules? It's right to be concerned and worried, but the game needs constructive criticism not some of the madness I read here!

either way I'd better shut up as I realise I've taken things off topic and most of the people I've aimed the post at I'm ignoring so.....blame boring exploring in Elite!

Sadly constructive criticism is`t welcome by RSI or vocal part of SC community. As a disappointed backer I looked carefully at how development went so far - they massively missed almost every hyped deadline, it never fails with RSI. If I was a gambler I would put lots of money on 3.0 delay. Look, non of us wants this project to fail but its so late, messed up and simply broken after all this time and money, that we are starting to ask questions.
In my opinion SC will never see the light of day, even with 30% of what has been hyped.

 

[Sir.Tj]

I see things are stating to get a litle bit fractious in here again.

I'd rather not have to go through the thread and do moderation things.

Discuss the game and not each other, this includes baiting and harassing others.

 

[Stigbob]

The original estimated release date for ED's Kickstarter was March, so it wasn't delayed by a few weeks. However, Frontier have been upfront fairly early on that they're not going to make that date. To be fair, nearly every Kickstarter campaign's initial estimates turn out to have been optimistic. After all, devs are incentivized to promise dates that are as low as possible while still being believable.
Of course, Star Citizen is well past that territory by now.

Thanks for the correction, I didn't back ED until late summer 2014 so I didn't know.

 

[MTBFritz]

We dont really have a lot of facts regarding Star Citizen. Most readily available information are proven to be incorrect or fabricated (funding tracker for example). We do know that production started in 2012 at the latest, 2011 at the earliest, we have a lot of empty words, statements and promises on record from CRoberts himself yet after several years we still only have a tech-demo and some disconnected modules which are all sub-par in quality and completion. Ambition which seems to be the best argument pro-SC fans can bring into the fray doesnt even remotely swing into this at this point.

Or maybe they mean the ambition is so great that CiG doesnt even know where to start or to begin. That seems to be correct and also the case in process because nothing gets completed, CiG starts to do several things at once and switches resources and priorities around whenever they stumble into a problem or so it seems. Like a small child attention goes to whatever is the most shiny or the loudest and everything it starts will be dropped and remain incomplete whenever a new thing comes along. After doing this for a few hours (years) the whole thing becomes boring and the child instead starts to think about new stuff to keep itself entertained. So are people paying and supporting a small child or an adult man? CiGs actions and results will answer that so fans dont have to. At the moment they seem to juggle a lot of different trajectories at once, barely keeping them all afloat yet unable to complete any of them.

Common Sense as it was used would apply to this project meaning having no chances whatsoever to ever be completed with the current management. I m not sure how common sense would make me understand underwhelming performance after many years with really astounding private backing and patience. Secrecy is an important thing when it comes to development, you certainly dont want to share your ingame secrets with the competition which might use your own work as a stepping stone to pass you and release a product that might take away revenue from you. Due to the business model CiG uses its very possible that a lot of their backers are actually competeing game developers trying to get inside information for a rather small investment.

I find it hard to believe tho that THIS is the reason for the obviously slow-going progress with almost zero success so far when it comes to the original promises. It would suggest (if fans are correct and CiG is doing great progress) that CiG is sitting on a treasure grove of completed features and game mechanics all ready to be realeased by switching a switch and only show their unfinished and buggy work to the public as a kind of dsitraction. Especially as criticism and negativity start to rise all around even from previously convinced pro-sc folks who start to doubt CiGs capabilities and are demanding more results. Why not actually provide some refined features and put more out in order to shut up the "hate mongering" and convince people they are on the right track?

Is CRoberts really laughing in glee at the world sitting in his bureau hugging the almost finished game which is so awesome that he knows he could release it at any moment....or release fragments of it which are so polished and awesome that it would confirm his claim of a superior product.

....yet he doesnt. Even when confronted with dares and people giving up on his game somehow holding back this superior game which has so many promising features ready and completed is preferable to all the negativity directed at him.


I m not sure what "common sense" should tell me about this scenario. Are we talking about a madman who does crazy things or is it like some people predict and the whole project is and doesnt exist nor will it ever be completed? I was looking forward to an answer soon seeing as 3.0 release is right around the corner yet it seems its date has been pushed back yet again and we are currently at the middle of august. If anything the delays are pretty predictable and almost funny at this point especially when the sales continue without a hitch.

 

[shadragon]

If there are lessons to be learned from this, it's how not to develop a video game.

Almost every decision they've made has been bad. Multiple reworking of mocap, multiple contractors hired / fired, hostile forums, wasted investor funds, numerous PR disasters, multiple deadlines missed. It just goes on and on.

Books will be written about this project failure and taught in future university business Masters degree programs.

The real tragic thing is the negative impact on future Kickstarter game projects. It will undermine confidence in a big way.

 

[Stigbob]

The real tragic thing is the negative impact on future Kickstarter game projects. It will undermine confidence in a big way.

Purely from a crowdfunding point of view that's not necessarily going to pan out that badly for consumers, because regulation on crowdfunding is certainly needed. If it's implemented sensibly it could have the opposite effect and actually raise confidence by deterring some of the more impossible projects.

Star Citizen's potential failure could really hurt the space-games genre though. Show a bean counter a failed $150 million plus space game and they'll simply say no in future.

 

[MTBFritz]

If there are lessons to be learned from this, it's how not to develop a video game.

Almost every decision they've made has been bad. Multiple reworking of mocap, multiple contractors hired / fired, hostile forums, wasted investor funds, numerous PR disasters, multiple deadlines missed. It just goes on and on.

Books will be written about this project failure and taught in future university business Masters degree programs.

The real tragic thing is the negative impact on future Kickstarter game projects. It will undermine confidence in a big way.

Until....of course...they do release the BDSSE then every decision they have made will suddenly ve been the right thing to do. Regardless of delays and disappointments along the way the result will actually justify them and the their doings. Their chance of failure might actually be higher then 99.9% and still there is this one tiny fraction of a percentage for them to win. I mean people win the lottery every day right? I just dont know many people who actually bet on a lottery win and have success in doing so.

And with all the smoke and mirror going on an actual investigation providing facts based on inviews on company logs, emails and books will certainly be of interest to a lot of people. I m sure books will be written regardless of the outcome of this project.

As far as the negative impact on kickstarter projects goes I doubt it ll be major. It only really affects people who will be burned by the possible failure of Star Citizen and not only that but the burning shame of being fooled and strung along for years (not talking about the average backer but the fanatic who praises CRoberts and every action of CiG). We already know thats a rather small group of people compared to the total number of backers involved. If these small group of people will learn from their mistake and think twice about throwing good money after money schemes I doubt a whole lot will change for the majority of kickstarter projects. Most backers funded Star Citizen because it sounded possible (the original version) and interesting and deserved a shot. I m pretty sure these people will continue to do so. If Star Citizen will change the landscape of crowdfunding it ll be probably the way people handle the development. Hopefully by not swallowing everything they are served but asking critical questions, demanding proof of concept and not being blinded by "potential" or handwaving. A lot of people, especially if they participated in the SC funding will be more carefull with what game they back and might question a lot more things but I dont really see that as a bad thing. It ll still allow good companies with interesting proposals a chance at development.

Far more interesting is the question if 100% private funded game development is valid and can be done at all. CiG currently demonstrates that its impossible to develop a game without some kind of control. Usually a publisher who will hold them to deadlines, apply pressure and make them really want to finish the game. The current system with CRoberts at the top holding all power about everything, I cant see an actual interest for him to deliver anything. This development thing is far more lucrative then having to handle a released game with limited revenue and developing more content. So maybe the only critical mistake Star Citizen has done was to keep CRoberts in control once the funding became a success.

 

[Mole HD]

I'd agree with that in the main, Fritz. ^^

I still see the problem as being the micromanagement of CiG by CR, not the lack of publisher. I like the guy, he has the same childish imagination as I have...I can see what he wants to do, has the tools and the support from a lot of very talented devs and practically an open budget...but he's interfering, a perfectionist to a fault, keeps adding feature creep...a hindrance to what is needed right now, which is a release of something concrete we can all play and Oooh and Ahhh at whilst noting the bugs....

His warphrase is no shortcuts, no compromises....that's fine... when you're feeding the folks that bring the money in some physical progress for their perseverence and generosity. That isn't happening, as we all know.

If 3.0 is delayed past Gamescon (Current estimate is 4th to 10th August for PU)...everyone except the Cult of Roberts will be demanding refunds, Sqn 42 teasers at the show or not. The general feeling amongst the ordinary backers and subscribers is about the same...patience is thin.