I wouldn't even call it fluff. At least fluff is fully formed.
What x-rebirth taught us about leaving the ship
- Thread starter Tempered
- Start date
I wouldn't even call it fluff. At least fluff is fully formed.
Guys, I really didn't mean to dump on the X series, I loved all of their games up until rebirth. The point of the thread was to gather any information we have about how EVA will be accomplished, and what purposes it will serve. Perhaps also as a warning of what happens when you do things the wrong way.
I have quite a bit of faith in Elite's developers, but even the best sometimes bite off more than they can chew. By discussing the potential for catastrophe, plans can be made, disasters avoided, and ideas of the right way to do it can come to light.
I have quite a bit of faith in Elite's developers, but even the best sometimes bite off more than they can chew. By discussing the potential for catastrophe, plans can be made, disasters avoided, and ideas of the right way to do it can come to light.
Yes I know.
A huge amount of GTA's budgets are poured into the meticulously constructed hand made world, the voice acting, huge advertising budget.
But also when they are unable to create stations and cities that feel alive and look the part, then they should not do it at all and concentrate on the space sim part and leave it at that.
Those have been my feelings right from the start. It should be done with the same high standard as the rest of the game in mind, or not at all. Because when it is done in a bad way it will drag the entire game down with it. That would be terrible. Players would avoid getting into stations, because it would become an immersion breaking embarrassment when the npc's would be animated horribly, would all look like moronic plastic clones and did not respond in acceptable ways to player behavior etc etc.
There are of course ways to limit the necessary AI responses. One could of course limit possible player actions in certain areas, like not being able to pull out a gun and shoot or engage in any form of aggression at all. But I do hope I can have a cool shootout with npc scum in certain areas at least
.I dream of putting my ship down near a primitive settlement like a modern version of a wild west village, having to meet the sheriff and fend of a few bad guys who want to steal my ship.
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We aren't dumping on X....X dumped on us!
I have a few very happy hundred hours plumped down on X3, X3 TC and I even gave 60 precious hours to X Reunion.
But all Reunion gave me was nightmares.
We are quite right (as you were) to use X Rebirth as a yardstick for what NOT to do regarding out of ship content.
Although, I must admit, its stations exteriors were pretty special.
I assume (based on your avatar) that you might have seen this obscure TV show called "Star Trek".
Take away all away team mission to planets and other "out of ship events" and then constrain all action inside the ship to the bridge ONLY. Would you maybe feel like something has gone missing from the show then?
Ah - Star Trek - the memories... (love the Episode where Dr. Zaius loses his hand to Lord Dark Helmet).
Anyhow - that's exactly what I meant when comparing it to the Wing Commander series. Star Trek is a TV Show and those tend to be quite heavily scripted for the most part - even heavier than Singleplayer Games.
It's a difference having a planetary scenery in a show closely resembling stage play or walking through a procedurally generated space station where random NPCs do random things. I don't see anything I'd possibly want to do in a space station unless FD develop something that makes it useful and not feel like a chore.
Did you ever play TES: Daggerfall? It was huge but extremely repetitive at the same time.
this makes me wonder.
what if only part of your group buys the planetary landings expansion.
something like this could have big consequences on missions and social structures.
you might even have to get the expansion to get this person with this bounty on his head.
just because he,s landed and building some house or
what ever takes to long to wait for.
they need some cleaver tricks to avoid this.
what if only part of your group buys the planetary landings expansion.
something like this could have big consequences on missions and social structures.
you might even have to get the expansion to get this person with this bounty on his head.
just because he,s landed and building some house or
what ever takes to long to wait for.
they need some cleaver tricks to avoid this.
stations would need to be interesting and diverse, with a wealth of npcs to interact with for station wandering to be effective imo
even then i think people will just get bored of having to get out and do something mundane like going to a bulletin board, and will rather do it all via a quick-access menu.
even then i think people will just get bored of having to get out and do something mundane like going to a bulletin board, and will rather do it all via a quick-access menu.
I've already been involved in this type of disscusion many many times since the beginning of the Kickstarter so my "energy level" isn't what it used to be.
But let me give you a short version how I see it being implemented.
My hope is that everything we can do in space in the first release will simply be tied into the avatar and planetary gameplay further down the line. In the first release we will (among other things) be able to trade, assassinate, pirate, fight, smuggle goods, mine resources, explore, deliver goods and passengers and so on.
In the first release we might get a mission to take out a pirate that is harassing some miners in a asteroid belt. So we fly over there and take out the NPC.
A similar mission could easily be tied in to new environments and first person gameplay outside the ship. In this case we once again get a mission to assassinate a pirate, but this time we learn that he is presently hiding at a remote settlement on a planet (or a station) out in the frontier. We therefore first go and buy the right type of "tools" for the job at an underground armsdealer we happen to know about on the station we are currently at. Then we jump into our ship and set course for that remote system. After some detours due to unforseen events happening we eventually reach that settlement/station, land out ship and get out. We then need to track down the pirate somehow, maybe by asking NPCs, maybe with the help of some advance scanner. Eventually we find him sitting in a bar so we hang around until he leaves, then follows him (stealth) until we have a good chance to take him out (back alley), make our move, hide the body and get out of there as soon as possible. Hopefully we aren't detected by the local security forces...that would be very bad indeed...
That's just assassination...equally interesting gameplay mechanics can't be thought up about all kinds of activities. Yes, this IS a lot of work, but since these things will be done in smaller steps (expansions) it is fully doable given time.
People who don't have the expansion simply won't find mission/events like this. They can keep on playing the game as they always done, but people who do buy the expansions will get these type of things thrown into the mix of activities they can choose to play around with thus making the game richer.
Yes...that was the short version...
EDIT: Should add, am agreeing here!
What is interesting and diverse now, is boring to some people in 20 minutes time.
I don't think anyone really grasps how much work would need to go into making one station fleshed out and interesting, and then to do that across ALL stations. Then to have proper content (mission hubs like bars, or mission objectives), then to get all the balancing right.
And even if they did this, a lot of people would declare - they are boring! - after a week.
Players get inspiration from very linear games that took millions of dollars to make, and show you a very truncated portion of the world they are based in, and they want this quality of content across interiors in a sandbox light years across in size.
Obviously the procedural element helps with fleshing out, but it wont add the really interesting content - not with the FP interior stuff anyway.
I dunno guys, the more I think about it, the more I think walking about should be limited to your ship and hangar, and space walking to perform ship maintenance.
@Tinman: That actually sounds very good, but as you said yourself, it's an extremely ambitious vision, basically aiming at integrating Thief series gameplay into ED. I loved Thief, but given how the latest iteration offered a purely linear campaign with added quicktime events to please the console crowd whilst having had a decent budget, I think asking FD for achieving that would kill them.
Massive development cost for the few that don't change back and forth between singleplayer online, group only and the all group as it suits them like it's currently envisioned, even when playing Ironman.
I like the idea - +rep for that, but if it's not mandatory, which it wont be due to the expansion characteristics, I simply wont leave my ship ever. I'll receive the expansion for free, but I suck at FPS games due to not being interested in them, hence, I wont leave it.
Massive development cost for the few that don't change back and forth between singleplayer online, group only and the all group as it suits them like it's currently envisioned, even when playing Ironman.
I like the idea - +rep for that, but if it's not mandatory, which it wont be due to the expansion characteristics, I simply wont leave my ship ever. I'll receive the expansion for free, but I suck at FPS games due to not being interested in them, hence, I wont leave it.
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I had to get in on this thread, and thanks because I needed a reason to start posting on the forums. I am a Kickstarter backer and premium beta backer, and I am a bit outraged at the comments here.
I find it odd that everyone is so quick to down play the vision FD is trying to accomplish with Elite, yet be so accepting of Star Citizen vision. Even now within this very thread fans are turning on their their own game. "They shouldn't do FPS because they have never done it in the past, they have no history in FPS." If Elite had an FPS component it would turn out complete crap or boring."
Its comments like this I find odd, since so many of you will criticize Chris's Star Citizen interview for saying SC has more money because it has the larger vision. But after reading this thread, I am more accepting of Chris's comments now, seeing many of you are so fast to dismiss any additional vision there maybe for Elite's future. Sad times for the Elite community.
Regardless, I find many of you are so hyper focused on stations, and not the true beauty the FPS setup will bring to mission structure. Exploring derelict ships, ruins, planet surfaces.
Really the FPS bit in my mind will be what actually makes the planet part interesting, the getting out and about exploring it on foot, etc. Its not about having a living planet to explore, but a dead planet with ruins to see. Its a bit absurd to think that many just want the experience to be held to blazing quickly over planetary objects in my spaceship. Kind of boring concept, unless you are into Microsoft flight.
I find it odd that everyone is so quick to down play the vision FD is trying to accomplish with Elite, yet be so accepting of Star Citizen vision. Even now within this very thread fans are turning on their their own game. "They shouldn't do FPS because they have never done it in the past, they have no history in FPS." If Elite had an FPS component it would turn out complete crap or boring."
Its comments like this I find odd, since so many of you will criticize Chris's Star Citizen interview for saying SC has more money because it has the larger vision. But after reading this thread, I am more accepting of Chris's comments now, seeing many of you are so fast to dismiss any additional vision there maybe for Elite's future. Sad times for the Elite community.
Regardless, I find many of you are so hyper focused on stations, and not the true beauty the FPS setup will bring to mission structure. Exploring derelict ships, ruins, planet surfaces.
Really the FPS bit in my mind will be what actually makes the planet part interesting, the getting out and about exploring it on foot, etc. Its not about having a living planet to explore, but a dead planet with ruins to see. Its a bit absurd to think that many just want the experience to be held to blazing quickly over planetary objects in my spaceship. Kind of boring concept, unless you are into Microsoft flight.
I think it would be really good to hear what frontiers ideas are about it all. It's like, how long is a piece of string as to where they could go with it.
I'm going to mention EVE again here, and it's not about trying to set another load of noise off about EVE or anything like that, but there are a few lessons that can be learned from what happend with EVE also.
Back in 2007, there was a video released of walking in stations also known as 'Ambulation'. This was way before the incarna expansion which was the expansion that caused a massive turd storm.
They showcased their vision of what stations were going to be all about at fanfest and in my opinion, had some really, really great ideas. Bars, trading in stations for those players who might as well work on the stock exchange, community areas, meeting up with agents, war rooms - where alliance commanders could plot and organise fleets from a galactic map. They also had a demo of a gambling game where real players could play against each other for in game currency (some cool augmented reality style table top game). Corp meetings - face to face with avatars rather than some crappy 2003 style chat window.
Unfortunately, the execution of it was really bad when incarna came around, expectations were very high and none of the said features came apart from the captains quarters.. The backlash was heavy and the majority of the eve playerbase seemed to overwhelmingly shout. This game is about spaceships in space, we dont want an avatar, or walking in stations.
Hilmar Petursson the ceo made a public apology over the way things rolled out with incarna - one of the things he said was 'we did not listen to what our players wanted'.
They did a u-turn on the whole walking in stations thing and pretty much shelved it. then went onto build a fps for the playstation that links into eve.
I think they were on the right lines with their ideas. i would love to see some of them implemented into ED that were relevant to ED game mechanics, but that's just me I love rpg games so to me its about the whole experience of space.
anyway long post, sorry for the text wall. lol
I'm going to mention EVE again here, and it's not about trying to set another load of noise off about EVE or anything like that, but there are a few lessons that can be learned from what happend with EVE also.
Back in 2007, there was a video released of walking in stations also known as 'Ambulation'. This was way before the incarna expansion which was the expansion that caused a massive turd storm.
They showcased their vision of what stations were going to be all about at fanfest and in my opinion, had some really, really great ideas. Bars, trading in stations for those players who might as well work on the stock exchange, community areas, meeting up with agents, war rooms - where alliance commanders could plot and organise fleets from a galactic map. They also had a demo of a gambling game where real players could play against each other for in game currency (some cool augmented reality style table top game). Corp meetings - face to face with avatars rather than some crappy 2003 style chat window.
Unfortunately, the execution of it was really bad when incarna came around, expectations were very high and none of the said features came apart from the captains quarters.. The backlash was heavy and the majority of the eve playerbase seemed to overwhelmingly shout. This game is about spaceships in space, we dont want an avatar, or walking in stations.
Hilmar Petursson the ceo made a public apology over the way things rolled out with incarna - one of the things he said was 'we did not listen to what our players wanted'.
They did a u-turn on the whole walking in stations thing and pretty much shelved it. then went onto build a fps for the playstation that links into eve.
I think they were on the right lines with their ideas. i would love to see some of them implemented into ED that were relevant to ED game mechanics, but that's just me
I love rpg games so to me its about the whole experience of space. anyway long post, sorry for the text wall. lol
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I remember everyone in my Corp laughing at the stupid ideas CCP had for getting out of the ship. None of the ideas they floated would have made anything more efficient or more fun for the player. Correction, ONE thing sounded very cool and that was finding a wreck in deep space and having to leave your ship to explore it.
I am a huge skeptic about all of this.
I am a huge skeptic about all of this.
All the assets as far as we've been told have been created and designed with EVA and the ability to land on planets already in place, it will just take a much ore concerted effort to bring it up to "speed" and even then will be taken in steps, firstly landing on asteroids and minor planets, ie Pluto 'class' (I saw a Tweet from David Braben mentioning the New Horizons space probe due next year) with the ability to leave stuff on its surface, and then perhaps mine. Keep increasing the complexity stage by stage unti its basically done, this is what I got from DB's interviews
I'm going to mention EVE again here, and it's not about trying to set another load of noise off about EVE or anything like that, but there are a few lessons that can be learned from what happend with EVE also.
Back in 2007, there was a video released of walking in stations also known as 'Ambulation'. This was way before the incarna expansion which was the expansion that caused a massive turd storm.
They showcased their vision of what stations were going to be all about at fanfest and in my opinion, had some really, really great ideas. Bars, trading in stations for those players who might as well work on the stock exchange, community areas, meeting up with agents, war rooms - where alliance commanders could plot and organise fleets from a galactic map. They also had a demo of a gambling game where real players could play against each other for in game currency (some cool augmented reality style table top game). Corp meetings - face to face with avatars rather than some crappy 2003 style chat window.
Unfortunately, the execution of it was really bad when incarna came around, expectations were very high and none of the said features came apart from the captains quarters.. The backlash was heavy and the majority of the eve playerbase seemed to overwhelmingly shout. This game is about spaceships in space, we dont want an avatar, or walking in stations.
Hilmar Petursson the ceo made a public apology over the way things rolled out with incarna - one of the things he said was 'we did not listen to what our players wanted'.
They did a u-turn on the whole walking in stations thing and pretty much shelved it. then went onto build a fps for the playstation that links into eve.
I think they were on the right lines with their ideas. i would love to see some of them implemented into ED that were relevant to ED game mechanics, but that's just me
anyway long post, sorry for the text wall. lol
No kidding (not the wall of text, but how things played out in Eve), but Eve online != Elite Dangerous in any way or form other than they're set in space, it plays differently and as we know from what we've been told Elite already has its design requirements set for first person avatars and planetary expansion to be further built upon. I don't believe Eve ever had this requirement and tried to "tack" it on with an expansion which was quite different from what the game originally shipped as, which is also beyond technical side of things, a harder to sale to well established players.
At the end of the day, the proof will be in the pudding, no amount of words can really answer these questions until we start seeing actual results imho, but I have good reason to be at least hopeful based on what we've seen so far with the little we've played with and that DB/Frontier is not a noob to game development who has actually mentioned these fears about PG etc on previous videos...
I've not been keeping up on Star Citizen since I saw that it features walking about as a key component. I seem to recall climbing up and down ladders for no particular reason in one of the last wing commander games I played.
I think that walking around a Coriolis space station would be really freaking amazingly cool. Like visiting Disney or the Parthenon.
I've done both of those things exactly once.
I think that walking around a Coriolis space station would be really freaking amazingly cool. Like visiting Disney or the Parthenon.
I've done both of those things exactly once.
Squicker
S
Please give a good workable example of how the core game would be improved in that case (not the cosmetic one you gave a few posts up).
I have read everything people say, with an open mind, but it all just amounts to fluff.
It will be fluff for a good while.
I'm glad FD has pushed this out for "later". They'll do it properly, or not at all...!
What would I like to do?
1. Land my Cobra on a planet or moon, in the middle of nowhere, at night.
2. Get out of my chair (woohoo). Walk through my ship.
3. Drop the ramp, and stroll down to the surface.
4. Walk to a nearby bump in the land.
5. Wait for sunrise.
6. Bask.
7. Walk around my Cobra. Check out its majesty.
8. Walk back up the ramp, close it, get back in my chair.
9. Fly off.
I reserve the right to do that on the next planet or moon I come across.
Bonus points for basking with the sunrise over an ocean.
Bonus points for clouds over the ocean at sunrise.
Maybe I should stock up my ship galley with marshmallows, so I can build a little camp fire under my ship. Can I also bring a harmonica?
I'm glad FD has pushed this out for "later". They'll do it properly, or not at all...!
What would I like to do?
1. Land my Cobra on a planet or moon, in the middle of nowhere, at night.
2. Get out of my chair (woohoo). Walk through my ship.
3. Drop the ramp, and stroll down to the surface.
4. Walk to a nearby bump in the land.
5. Wait for sunrise.
6. Bask.
7. Walk around my Cobra. Check out its majesty.
8. Walk back up the ramp, close it, get back in my chair.
9. Fly off.
I reserve the right to do that on the next planet or moon I come across.
Bonus points for basking with the sunrise over an ocean.
Bonus points for clouds over the ocean at sunrise.
Maybe I should stock up my ship galley with marshmallows, so I can build a little camp fire under my ship. Can I also bring a harmonica?
Squicker
S
Yes, I think that's the crucial point to what myself and the others are saying. We're not saying no one should have this, but as it's primarily fluff\fluff for a good while, it should be optional because a lot of us might not want to do this sort of thing.
That way, those that do want that sort of experience can get it, but I won't be driven to do what I perceive as quite possibly a painful and immersion breaking activity.
i.e., the way that FD are doing it (optional XPac) is the right way, so we should slap them on their virtual backs.