Karma vs PvP Piracy

[Powderpanic]

Indeed - while Frontier can provide the framework within which piracy exists as part of the game, the PvP subset of piracy is entirely dependent on there being players as targets - which is not mandatory.

Other players are mandatory for PVP piracy.

So while you want to always push the PVE agenda, you really need to open your eyes to the fact that a lot of people want to shoot at other people because NPC's are completely not a challenge.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hot off the press from another thread:

Hello Commander urth!

If you are not destroying ships, it's our intention that the karma system should not really affect you. Most likely we will want to track damage as well, but in general, if you're reasonably effective at taking out drives and using limpets, only the normal crime rules should trigger (you'll be subject to a bounty).

When it comes to "griefing", ship destruction, catastrophic damage and significant disparity between ship strength and player stats are the kinds of things that karma is interested in.

If we end up punishing the behaviour you describe when you pirate, we will be doing it wrong.

 

[StiTch]

Sorry, I am not talking about the in-game roleplay engagements but about real people sitting behind their desks. It doesn't matter if traders are free to resist, I am doing you a favour by playing with you. Be a pirate if you want, but this only works if I let you. People should remember this when discussing piracy on this forum, that's all I tried to say

Sorry dude but in the nicest way, this is absolute nonsense.

If you join to Open you agree to player risk. No player ever gets to decide what happens to them within the confines of their game. Solo mode - do you get to ask an NPC pirate to lay off you nicely, and he should just disappear every time?

Within Solo, there are no players. In PG, you decide what players there are. In Mobius, there are other CMDRs bound by word to play along. If there were Open PvE, you would have an open environment where you can avoid player conflict by rule.

When you join Open though, you don't join Open PvE. Until the day FD decide Open should be PvP free, if you click on the big Open sign, as a non-PvE dedicated mode you agree to risk from other players.

And this is intentional, or we would already basically have Open PvE and some rubbish duelling areas/systems or something.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Other players are mandatory for PVP piracy.

So while you want to always push the PVE agenda, you really need to open your eyes to the fact that a lot of people want to shoot at other people because NPC's are completely not a challenge.

Indeed they are - but there is nothing in this game that requires the other players to choose to be targets and Frontier's game design has taken that into account from the outset.

It is very clear that some players prefer to shoot at other players. It is equally clear that some players don't enjoy being shot at by other players.

 

[Jukelo]

So I assume the karma system will also punish bounty hunters attacking wanted players who don't have a PF's bounty on their head?

 

[babelfisch]

Sorry dude but in the nicest way, this is absolute nonsense.

If you join to Open you agree to player risk. No player ever gets to decide what happens to them within the confines of their game. Solo mode - do you get to ask an NPC pirate to lay off you nicely, and he should just disappear every time?

Within Solo, there are no players. In PG, you decide what players there are. In Mobius, there are other CMDRs bound by word to play along. If there were Open PvE, you would have an open environment where you can avoid player conflict by rule.

When you join Open though, you don't join Open PvE. Until the day FD decide Open should be PvP free, if you click on the big Open sign, as a non-PvE dedicated mode you agree to risk from other players.

There are lots of ways to avoid piracy all together:

- play Solo / PG
- put pirates on block
- leave the game as soon as someone is behind you
- quit to main menu when getting interdicted
- high wake
- be in a fast ship
- etc.

People are arguing that a karma system would destroy piracy because players are no longer able to force piracy upon others by the threat of ship destruction. That's nonsense. The only reason you are able to pirate me is because I let you. This will not change with a karma system. You will still require me to play along, and if you want to change that, this will be the day Open truly becomes a desert. Stop expecting people to play with you, that's a privelege, not a right.

 

[Jukelo]

People are arguing that a karma system would destroy piracy because players are no longer able to force piracy upon others by the threat of ship destruction. That's nonsense. The only reason you are able to pirate me is because I let you. This will not change with a karma system. You will still require me to play along, and if you want to change that, this will be the day Open truly becomes a desert. Stop expecting people to play with you, it's a privelege, not a right.

But this thread is specifically about how the karma system will punish pirates. That there exists other hurdles we've been debating since eons past is not the main topic.

 

[Lateralus]

You're conflagrating two things here: 1) 8/10 traders run => Victims of piracy should run, they're either responsible for someone else's cargo or they have an investment in the cargo itself. Not running from a pirate as a default strategy is irresponsible. Pilots who make it easy for pirates to take away their cargo will soon loose their reputation and thus make less money from transport missions or will loose funds and run the risk of running out of credits. And by running they add gameplay to the Piracy gameplay, because what fun is there for either Pirate or Piratee if it isn't anything more than a involuntary cargo drop after being yanked out of supercruise.

As I said previously, I don't expect traders not to run - they're free to do whatever they like, but the issue is that this game makes it difficult for the pirate to do anything other than kill the trader at this point because of a lack of tools/options. A 0% drive trader drifting at 300m/s, spilling cargo out over 40km is not an ideal outcome.

2) Combat logging (or in this case better called anti-piracy logging), which would also be covered under the karma system. The Piratee must have options to escape the Pirate, but combat logging shouldn't be one of them. Hence the karma system also covering combat logging.

Agreed, yes it should (15 second menu logging should be covered by karma too).

Now I agree that for Piracy to become a viable role in the game and thus add meaningful gameplay there must be more tools available for the Pirate. And the Piratee must have more tools to fight off the Pirate's tools otherwise there is no meaningful gameplay for either side after Interdiction has succeeded. More tools than there are now. So for thether limpets there must be counter measures, otherwise there is no sensible gameplay options for the Piratee.

I'd suggest a tether limpet only be possible to use on a target with 0% drives & shields, that way it would still be necessary to disable the fleeing ship first. Multiple ships tethering one ship would make the tether stronger and reduce the likelihood of it breaking if the trader reboots drives.

But this whole "I must kill otherwise I become irrelevant" reasoning is beyond the pale. Killing traders does nothing for you as a pirate (no cargo is dropped, your reputation isn't impacted in any meaningful way since it doesn't come into play anyway (as players can't tell that you are a Pirate before interdiction except if you are Wanted, but that could also mean that you are a pure Player Killer, so Wanted status makes me want to run in any case whatever your intentions).

If all pirates were gentlemen pirates, nobody would give up any cargo. Fear of rebuy is necessary otherwise we are nothing but beggers. Also NPC pirates shoot to kill, what's the difference? It's clearly how FDev see pirates operating.

This whole argument about ships drifting on at their max speed is also nonsense. Trading vessels have by definition a much slower top speed than the typical piracy ships have, so even at max speed they shouldn't outrun you anyway. Making your cargo demands while leisurely flying after them should actually make it easier, not harder since they can't get away from you anymore through maneuvering.

Try it, see how much cargo you can hatch-break from a disabled trade ship before the cargo reaches 0% when all the canisters are drifting out of range of your limpets, while at the same time trying to maintain pace with the drifting trade ship that keeps going silent running and dropping off your scanner.

Destroying other players must come with a price otherwise it will become the weapon of choice of the lazy players, those who don't actually want a difficult but rewarding Piracy carreer. Those who want an easy interdiction and then expect the other player to drop their cargo without having to exert any other effort. That's not gameplay that's a "push button to win" option and I think we can both agree that would not make for very involved Piracy gameplay.

Sure, but piracy has been on the ropes for a good 18 months now, and nuking it to oblivion with overly punitive measures will result in more gank groups forming. It's not about laziness, the design of the game just makes piracy a bit of a chore when the trader doesn't stop voluntarily. Fdev, give us the tools and we will use them.

 

[babelfisch]

But this thread is specifically about how the karma system will punish pirates. That there exists other hurdles we've been debating since eons past is not the topic.

But the reservations against a karma system don't matter if a karma system doesn't change the status quo. It will not punish pirates, it will punish mindless killing. If you require mindless killing for piracy you are either doing it wrong or it deserves to be punished.

 

[StiTch]

There are lots of ways to avoid piracy all together:

- play Solo / PG
- put pirates on block
- leave the game as soon as someone is behind you
- quit to main menu when getting interdicted
- high wake
- be in a fast ship

What you have described though are either intentional ways to mitigate risk in line with the game mode, or basically exploits.

Play solo? Sure. I mentioned above you can use that to avoid any and all PvP - and is the entire point of the game mode, given that you still require an internet connection to tie you into the BGS. All it does is stop you instancing with others. Fast ship/high waking? That's fine. You were still subject to the risk, but you took the actions required to evade it. No-one said players have the right to unconditionally destroy you; they have right to subject you to risk, and escaping is your personal choice on how you try to deal with that risk. I dare say in a heavy trader though, remembering we are on the subject of piracy, that isn't always plausible.

Pre-emptive blocking/CLing? Well given the former doesn't even work consistently, and the latter is cheating and punishable by the same karma system, this is hardly intentional gameplay - and not reliable either.

No, sorry, I'm not being unreasonable here. If you click the big word "open" it is intended that you will face risk, and potentially from other players. Please be encouraged to build yourself up to escape that risk, or handle it otherwise, but you aren't entitled to a risk-free experience

In any case, this is now off-topic. If you want to complain that you don't feel ED should let pirates have at you, and that you feel players should have the right to dictate every event that happens to them, take it to FD in a dedicated thread so I can grab popcorn.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But this thread is specifically about how the karma system will punish pirates. That there exists other hurdles we've been debating since eons past is not the main topic.

I expect that the karma system, from what Sandro said in the quoted post above, is designed to deal with players that destroy clean players - in game terms, that's murder and not piracy.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

With regards to Powerplay and karma: our initial thoughts are that it's likely that karma will not track valid Powerplay engagements as that system is overtly consensual player versus player, and not initially available to new starters.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hello Commanders!

With regards to Powerplay and karma: our initial thoughts are that it's likely that karma will not track valid Powerplay engagements as that system is overtly consensual player versus player, and not initially available to new starters.

Interesting, thanks Sandro! The definition of "valid" in that context would be very much appreciated....

 

[Jukelo]

Try it, see how much cargo you can hatch-break from a disabled trade ship before the cargo reaches 0% when all the canisters are drifting out of range of your limpets, while at the same time trying to maintain pace with the drifting trade ship that keeps going silent running and dropping off your scanner.

To elaborate on this:

* Cargo containers despawn once the player gets further than 8km away, you can't just make cargo spill and come back later for collection.
* Collector limpets don't work if you go faster than ~18m/s, they destroy the cargo upon collection as I think they miss the cargo hatch and ram it onto your hull.
* Collector limpets are slow anyway, if the target is drifting at 200+m/s the collector wont have time to collect the cargo pilling out before it's out of range and self destructs.
* Your speed is limited with your cargo hatch down, you will never keep up with a drifting prey.

Edit:

* Also hatch breakers are slow to fly to the target and slow to act. Their hacking speed is affected by the % of hitpoint remaining on the target, and they drop ~7 tons of cargo per limpet, at a rate of ~2t per second. Basically they don't have time to work if the target is just boosting away and charging its FSD because it submitted to the interdiction and you didn't soften it up by shaving 90% of its HP.

All of this means the target has to be stationary for you to be able to succesfully pirate them and make any decent profit.

 

[Lateralus]

To elaborate on this:

* Cargo containers despawn once the player gets further than 8km away, you can't just make cargo spill and come back later for collection.
* Collector limpets don't work if you go faster than ~18m/s, they destroy the cargo upon collection as I think they miss the cargo hatch and ram it onto your hull.
* Collector limpets are slow anyway, if the target is drifting at 200+m/s the collector wont have time to collect the cargo pilling out before it's out of range and self destructs.
* Your speed is limited with your cargo hatch down, you will never keep up with a drifting prey.

This.

Definitive reasons why disabling trader drives is pointless (unless they are willing to negotiate, but then the pirate usually turns into a reboot & repair tutor).

 

[Crazy Joe]

I don't think that's what he's getting at per se - as I see it, he's speaking out against the notion that traders should be able to make a run for it without consequence.

If a pirate goes for the "honourable" route of piracy, and the trader makes a peg for it, that was their decision. Their financial loss would have likely been next to nothing for giving up a bit of cargo. Nay, if someone wants to run to save a few T cargo, then forceful disablement or destruction is a possibility-and as Lateralus says, if traders know then can just make a run for it and will never be destroyed, caught, or otherwise face consequence, what would be the point of piracy? It would basically become glorified begging.

My point is that Piracy shouldn't be a "Push to Win" activity. Effort should be needed by the Pirate to achieve a result and there should be enough means on the part of the Piratee to at least give them a chance to fight of Pirates. Smart Pirates should have options to do their business without harming other players, but that is up to Frontier Developments to figure out (Stealthy hatch breaker drones that can slip through shields maybe?).

 

[PiLhEaD]

Perhaps it could be that reporting crimes is entirely disabled in Anarchy systems.

Then the further up the security level you go, the more negative karma you get for the destruction of a fellow CMDR.

If the policing level is similarly aligned, then the notorious can feel fairly safe in anarchy systems, whilst knowing they'll never even get docking permission in high security systems, assuming they last that long....

In this manner the pew pew brigade can all head to anarchy systems to knock each other about, and the player pirates and traders can balance risk and reward, much as they would have to do in real life.

 

[StiTch]

My point is that Piracy shouldn't be a "Push to Win" activity. Effort should be needed by the Pirate to achieve a result and there should be enough means on the part of the Piratee to at least give them a chance to fight of Pirates. Smart Pirates should have options to do their business without harming other players, but that is up to Frontier Developments to figure out (Stealthy hatch breaker drones that can slip through shields maybe?).

I don't think that's been argued for anywhere here. I suspect you have a very, very limited view on what piracy consists of - might I suggest you give it a go and see what it's like first? If you can "win" in a click, then all my base are belong to you.

In effect I agree that click-to-win piracy would suck. Remember that piracy is only actually done for the enjoyment; anyone doing it for the profit is a lunatic. So traders having the right to magically escape as though the pirate weren't there, or indeed piracy being scripted to being "click to silently remove a few t cargo without damaging them" every time, may as well strip the purpose out of piracy.

 

[Jukelo]

My point is that Piracy shouldn't be a "Push to Win" activity. Effort should be needed by the Pirate to achieve a result

... two days ago I spent half an hour pirating an NPC Type 9 carrying LTDs - in my Cobra mk IV. I actually had to disable its drives as it was dangerous ranked (and thus wouldn't let me have a decent shot at its PP - mind you it was affected by the no-cooldown bug so I had to do it quick) and then use my own ship to bump it (using FA off) slowly down to a halt to be able ot use my limpets. After another 20 minutes looking for a good black market to sell them at, that was 1.8 million credits for almost an hour of work, not counting the time spent scanning ships carrying biowaste and worthless machinery.

Against a competent player in a properly fitted Type 9 that would have been a lot more work, but that player wouldn't have been carrying LTDs worth 50k each. They'd be carrying Palladium or Slaves for 10k each (more like 8k on the black market). I'm confident piracy is already the most effort-intensive activity in the game (not that that's saying much).

There's no I-win button for piracy. You're flying a ship which has to compromise cargo space and both offensive and defensive capabilities, you can't just kill the target if you hope to make any profit (it would be a lot easier) so you need to know your way around combat and how to disable all trade and multipurpose ships, you have to know the same things traders do wrt BGS states and their effect on the economy if you want a good price for your goods, and if you worry about fines you also have to be able to smuggle your goods in. Piracy requires you to have skills and knowledge from all other activities in the game. Granted, again, that's not saying a whole lot.

 

[Lateralus]

My point is that Piracy shouldn't be a "Push to Win" activity. Effort should be needed by the Pirate to achieve a result and there should be enough means on the part of the Piratee to at least give them a chance to fight of Pirates. Smart Pirates should have options to do their business without harming other players, but that is up to Frontier Developments to figure out (Stealthy hatch breaker drones that can slip through shields maybe?).

Piracy (PvP) already is probably the most high-skill, high-risk, lowest profit profession in the game.

Hatch-breakers already go through shields. They are not at the heart of the issue and are only a minor tool to PvP piracy as they are only useful against stationary targets. Making them stealthy would only benefit against point-defence or ECM, but the target would still be boosting away so not really a help.