Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Thanks, Sandro.
Karma vs PvP Piracy
- Thread starter Riverside
- Start date
Thanks, Sandro.
I read this as: If the pirate chooses to randomly blow everyone up (=is indistinguishable from toxic actions) the karma system kicks in and gives the pirate a hard time. I know that's not what he said, but that way it makes sense
That sounds like how the karma system is meant to work, not "making piracy obsolete"
All that would need to be debated there is what "a hard time" is. And as an ex-pirate and criminal myself, I'm actually hoping it's a properly hard time, provided it's not just basically making illegal activities in-viable.
I just loathe this idea of karma - I guess. I don't think my view is popular - and so be it.
You can pick any real world situation and say that's an example of karma, but that just ignores all the other events that took place where there was no such balancing act.
Crime & Punishment shouldn't be about karma, nor should it be about NPCs and Players being treated differently (it sounds far too much like a form of racism). Crime & Punishment shouldn't be perfect. Every now and again horrible crimes should happen and the perpetrators should get away with it. It sucks - but that's life.
Does Crime & Punishment need improving? Of course, and forever should it be constantly tweaked as per real life. But not based on "karma".
[slinks off to have some strange herbal tea concoction which is in no-way drug related and in no-way trying to get a karma like peaceful trance]
You can pick any real world situation and say that's an example of karma, but that just ignores all the other events that took place where there was no such balancing act.
Crime & Punishment shouldn't be about karma, nor should it be about NPCs and Players being treated differently (it sounds far too much like a form of racism). Crime & Punishment shouldn't be perfect. Every now and again horrible crimes should happen and the perpetrators should get away with it. It sucks - but that's life.
Does Crime & Punishment need improving? Of course, and forever should it be constantly tweaked as per real life. But not based on "karma".
[slinks off to have some strange herbal tea concoction which is in no-way drug related and in no-way trying to get a karma like peaceful trance]
That sounds like how the karma system is meant to work, not "making piracy obsolete"
All that would need to be debated there is what "a hard time" is. And as an ex-pirate and criminal myself, I'm actually hoping it's a properly hard time, provided it's not just basically making illegal activities in-viable.
Yes. Currently Piracy has much less of a dilemma attached to it, and at the sharper end it will be much harder to distinguish from undesirable behaviour, so the definition will need to be refined. I thought it was clear from the context of the rest of my post
Well, all these mechanics need a little bit of a requirement of the player to "play along with it" surely?
It could well be the mechanics are simple maths, eg:-
[number of illegal kills in past week]/7... And that results in a bar showing you your Pilots Federation reputation. Anything more than 1 results in increasing negative outcmoes (penalties).
Now while this is a very mathematical rigid mechanic, it's not exactly unrealistic? As long as it works something like real life?
ie: The more frequently you act like a psycho the more you get noticed? Act like a loon rarely and you'll barely cause a rippled. Do it every day, and you'll get noticed.
And I entirely agree about combat logging being treated as a purely game event and handled accoringly.
Last edited:
I think karma is better used to describe the motivation of the mechanic. ie: To rein in toxic unsocial behaviour. As long as ingame it comes across as a sensible, fair and believable mechanic, who care's what's its called?
Last edited:
I thought that was exploration that claimed those honors.
J-honk... J-honk... J-honk...
Yeh, I can see why some folks might see that as high skill and risk
J-honk... J-honk... J-honk...
Yeh, I can see why some folks might see that as high skill and risk
Isn't the skill not to crash into the star whilst watching Netflix?
Thank you, Sandro.
If you decide to go for anything less than a complete pledger v pledger exemption (assuming not of same superpower) then I would ask you to consider broadening the terms of your first paragraph.
Specifically, if you go with Controlled and Exploited systems as the legit battlegrounds, I'd ask that any pledger v pledger violence within those systems be exempt.
Example: Hudson Cmdr and Archon Delaine Cmdr are both attacking ALD Cmdrs in an ALD system. Whether they choose to ally, ignore each other or attack each other should not result in negative karma. Similarly, a Patreus Cmdr should be able to repel either of these non-Imperial invaders even though it is an ALD, not Patreus system, without penalty.
What I mean is, there's no need to stifle the dynamic nature of Powerplay PvP at its most interesting, exciting and unpredictable, via negative karma.
However, I'd like to reiterate that offering a galaxy-wide Powerplay exemption really could both give PP its shot in the arm and offer the game its unofficial 'PvP-on' flag.
The more people pledge, the less unwanted heat for those who don't pledge, if you see what I mean. If a CG is in a non-PP system, the ideal scenario for a non-PvP guy who still plays in Open is that the gankers ignore him because they are pledged and they have pledged targets (both karma stick, and pledged carrot, as it were).
Hello Commanders!
Just to add, there's no way we're going to make piracy obsolete. Pirates in Elite Dangerous want to steal booty, not sink ships, so there's a clear distinction already to work with That's not to say that piracy is perfect - hopefully there are some changes that will improve agency, reward and equity for both parties, but that's not really the remit of karma.
On the other hand, pirates that go on to destroy their victims are not (though they might fulfil historical criteria) what we class as pirates in Elite Dangerous, which does potentially fall into the remit of karma.
Just to add, there's no way we're going to make piracy obsolete. Pirates in Elite Dangerous want to steal booty, not sink ships, so there's a clear distinction already to work with That's not to say that piracy is perfect - hopefully there are some changes that will improve agency, reward and equity for both parties, but that's not really the remit of karma.
On the other hand, pirates that go on to destroy their victims are not (though they might fulfil historical criteria) what we class as pirates in Elite Dangerous, which does potentially fall into the remit of karma.
Heh, I was hoping they were included in Controlled.
Thinking about it, though, it's really expansion systems that are crucial because they are supposed to be that week's battlegrounds.
And then there's thinking ahead and preventing the preparation of named systems for expansion, of course ... I'm not making fun here, these all warrant karma-free violence.
Hello Commander Truesilver!
Good points, definitely something we'll consider. It may well be that a Powerplay wide exemption is the right answer. I just want to avoid making promises without getting to the nitty gritty.
+++ Update +++
Expansion systems would certainly count as valid Powerplay systems, as they are all obout control.
Good points, definitely something we'll consider. It may well be that a Powerplay wide exemption is the right answer. I just want to avoid making promises without getting to the nitty gritty.
+++ Update +++
Expansion systems would certainly count as valid Powerplay systems, as they are all obout control.
Since it was mentioned here as well I'll post what Sandro said on the other thread:
Should make a some people happy!
Should make a some people happy!
Thanks Sandro, removing ambiguity is a positive step.
This being the case... I'd hope that "pirates" seemingly making a full time occupation out of destroying exploration ships at locations in anarchy systems, for the cargo they're not even carrying, are subject to some C&P (karma)
Go and spend a few hours in OPEN at a Thargoid base for plenty of lovely constructive "not what we class as pirates in Elite Dangerous"
ps: I've recently signed up to Mobius because of this type of never ending cynical activity.
Last edited:
This being the case... I'd hope that "pirates" seemingly making a full time occupation out of destroying exploration ships at locations in anarchy systems, for the cargo they're not even carrying, are subject to some C&P (karma)
Go and spend a few ours in OPEN at a Thargoid base for plenty of lovely constructive "not what we class as pirates in Elite Dangerous"
And to think that some people have the courage to reply "if you complain about this stuff it means that you don't like PvP"...
Thing is PvP is a number of things:-
- Piracy
- Friendly/organised fights
- Powerplay type activity
- Mindles toxic griefing/ganking to aggravate other players.
All of these need improving and orchestrating... except one... Which needs seriously reining in.