Karma vs PvP Piracy

[Robert Maynard]

This is why, along with a sensible C&P (karma) mechanic to penalise habitual illegal destruction (of CMDRs and NPC, in all system types), FD should actually ochestrate PvP for those truly interested.

eg: Periodic CGs in OPEN for CMDRs to sign up to side A or B and actually fight for an outcome. Or an OPEN CG to delvier X to location Y, with a counter CG to prevent it. And it would be legal combat!

In this fashion individuals interested in PvP have obvious ways to undertake it, actually for an outcome! Those not, need not sign up to these OPEN CGs.

Frontier have not chosen to restrict any permanent content to a single game mode (and CGs, while time limited, are pan-modal in this context) - it would be interesting to see what was proposed for the PvP intolerant players while such an event was offered in Open only, should Frontier actually offer a mode-restricted CG....

 

[Lateralus]

I never said you did. In fact, the comment you quoted wasn't even a reply to you. It was a conversation with StiTch where I said that being the victim of piracy is pretty much optional in Elite Dangerous. Don't know why you felt the need to comment on that

PS
If you click on the little arrows in the quote box it'll take you to the original post, that should help you understand the context.

Ahem, you were replying to me when you said those things...

 

[Darkfyre99]

Sorry, I am not talking about the in-game roleplay engagements but about real people sitting behind their desks. It doesn't matter if traders are free to resist, I am doing you a favour by playing with you. Be a pirate if you want, but this only works if I let you. People should remember this when discussing piracy on this forum, that's all I tried to say

Exactly.

I want pirates to be in my game. Heck, I very much intended to engage in the occasional piracy liberation of kidnapped Imperial citizens en route to the slave houses corporate work sites in the Federation. Funny thing I have yet to find anyone making such a run in open, despite patrolling the best routes in open.

I have no desire to be the content of someone who isn't willing to return the favor. If a "pirate" is so kill happy that they run afoul of the karma system, I doubt the player is anyone I'd care to be pirated by in the first place. I've enjoyed my two encounters with 'proper' pirates. The same can't be said of player killers claiming to be pirates.

 

[StiTch]

I made it very clear that I was not talking about the "in-game experience" but about the "behind the desk experience" when I said that being the victim of piracy alread IS very much optional (note, I didn't say I want it to be optional, I said it alread IS optional!).

Then why bring up things like "fast ship", which is unquestionably an in-game method of evasion?

In any case, misunderstanding erased - but I still disagree. It's poor form for the direction of a game to be based on cheaters/exploiters, which is what one is doing by yanking the cable mid-interdiction.

 

[babelfisch]

Ahem, you were replying to me when you said those things...

Because you replied to a comment that was a reply to StiTch...

You quoted me that wasn't directed to you but to StiTch, check it yourself. I told you the context. You said you never said these things. I never said you did, I just explained the context. Just click on the little arrows and you'll see where it started

 

[babelfisch]

Then why bring up things like "fast ship", which is unquestionably an in-game method of evasion?

In any case, misunderstanding erased - but I still disagree. It's poor form for the direction of a game to be based on cheaters/exploiters, which is what one is doing by yanking the cable mid-interdiction.

I never said anything about yanking cables, I just listed several reasons why being a victim of piracy is optional. The most important one is Open and Solo. It's not my fault that you are trying so hard to disagree with me

 

[Mengy]

The question of how piracy could fit in with the proposed 'karma' system has come up a few times recently, I'd like to see if we can come up with a solution.

PvP Piracy is obviously illegal according to the in-universe laws (lets call this 'lore') but positively encouraged by the game itself (the 'game') because it can be a lot of fun for both participants if done well.

So for example, I think killing the victim after cargo has been dropped could become a karma flag, but I can see flaws in that rule.

What rules do you think a karma system could use that would differentiate 'proper' pirate behaviour from ganking dressed up as piracy?

I think that any good C&P + Karma system for Elite Dangerous needs to strongly differentiate between attacking a commander and killing a commander. Pirates who attack a ship to steal cargo should get bounties placed on them, but minimal karma hit in my opinion. However, players who kill clean commanders for any reason at all (Power Play and CZ engagements excluded) should get strong karma penalties, enough of which would lead to game changing repercussions like lawful stations banning and shooting the murderer on sight. Of course independent and anarchy systems would remain open to the murderers, becoming havens of scum and villainy in the bubble for the seedy lot of the universe.

There also would need to be a way for any commander to clear their karma and restore their standing if they wanted to reform, BUT it needs to have a high cost of effort and time!!! Becoming a criminal murderer should always be a choice but it should be a weighty choice with serious cost, and not one that is easily reversed on a whim. It needs to be meaningful in order to be effective.

 

[NeilF]

Frontier have not chosen to restrict any permanent content to a single game mode (and CGs, while time limited, are pan-modal in this context) - it would be interesting to see what was proposed for the PvP intolerant players while such an event was offered in Open only, should Frontier actually offer a mode-restricted CG....

I suspect that's more down to simply how the game was developed and where it reached for release.

I can't see any reason why some gameplay (eg: CGs) couldn't be employed solely for "legal" PvP purposes (in OPEN)? If it means CMDRs can undertake PvP more easily, and it's more interesting PvP than simply flying around "in the hope", and more constructive PvP than randomly interdicting and shooting any CMDR you can find... Surely that's a good outcome?

 

[Lateralus]

Because you replied to a comment that was a reply to StiTch...

You quoted me that wasn't directed to you but to StiTch, check it yourself. I told you the context. You said you never said these things. I never said you did, I just explained the context. Just click on the little arrows and you'll see where it started

Righto

 

[Xender]

I hope that Karma will be "out of game universe system" rather than "in game lore based system" because this is really stupid to base law around trends... Think about that: "He killed one person recently, nah it is only one kill. He is not a murderer"; "Uh uh, he killed 10 players, we should watch him carefully"; "50 players killed? We are sure he is murder, send cops after him". It is not good solution. Even one crime should cause law enforcement to arrive, however the strength of response should be tied to amount of crimes.

Karma as "out of game system" should track things like combat logs etc. thinks which happen "outside of universe, outside of lore". Crimes, piracy etc. should be tracked by Law and Crime and Punishment system, much more focused on certain actions like murder rather than trend like being serial murder. It shouldn't be fuzzy it should be clear and solid - you if killed someone in High Security space, you will receive high bounty, and police will hunt you.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I suspect that's more down to simply how the game was developed and where it reached for release.

I suspect that it's even simpler than that - Frontier have designed their game to permit all players to choose how many (or few) players they play among on a session-by-session basis and have implemented all appropriate content in all applicable game modes - most recently with Multi-Crew being implemented in both multi-player modes.

I can't see any reason why some gameplay (eg: CGs) couldn't be employed solely for "legal" PvP purposes (in OPEN)? If it means CMDRs can undertake PvP more easily, and it's more interesting PvP than simply flying around "in the hope", and more constructive PvP than randomly interdicting and shooting any CMDR you can find... Surely that's a good outcome?

Sandro mentioned earlier in the thread that Powerplay is a form of consensual PvP (optional, of course as it is also pan-modal).

 

[StiTch]

if killed someone in High Security space, you will receive high bounty, and police will hunt you.

I 100% agree, but unfortunately people object really hard to the idea of cops/NPCs that can actually fire in a straight line.

In fact if you ask FD nicely, they might reveal more sneak peaks of their cop training courses

....

Spoiler

 

[Arthur Shappey]

Well - I will just calmly wait to see how it all pans out.

Whilst I would say the game has always had punishments in place for smuggling, piracy, mercenaries & plain ol'fashioned murder - it has also clearly promoted the professions over the year, offering missions, rewards, achievements, and frankly oodles of fun.

Let's just trust that when FDev ultimately go too far with Karma (as they are bound to do, all of us easily could) they will quickly spot this and nerf it back - hopefully making for the right balance of supporting those law-abiding players (as long as they fly with due care and attention) as well as supporting the opportunity for a bit of dishonest smuggling, , pillaging, piracy and brutal murder.

It should be challenging to get away with these crimes, but it should also be possible & fun. Or Elite is no longer the wild west of space...

Players should be able to get away with killing other players. Just not always. Just not without care. Just not in a casual vindictive manner...

 

[Riverside]

Thank you all for a mostly constructive debate so far, I have given rep to posts that I think move the conversation along or add a decent point. Thanks in particular to Sandro sticking an (admittedly off topic) oar in to help clarify a point on PowerPlay.

I see Piracy as a point where karma and C&P collide. It is intended gameplay but obviously against the 'lore' law, it is the piggy in the middle.

I'd like to furiously agree with babelfisch & several others that to be pirated is a consensual act, as a pirate you may be able to force a player to give up some cargo once, but after that it is up to that player to stay in Open & subject themselves to it again if they didn't enjoy the experience, and a fundamental part of that is to survive the encounter if the result is not a legitimate PvP fight.

The Trader faces a dilemma when they pass through pirate territory. Is it worth the risk? The Pirate currently does not face anything like the same dilemma, if the operation goes bad they just gank the hapless victim & find another target.

It should be as much of a dilemma for the Pirate as the Trader; A kill should be a last resort if the trader does not deploy hardpoints. You should really, really not want to kill them. Be the cat & toy with your prey - get their shields down but let them low wake (they escape by the skin of their teeth, awesome) & you give chase & pull them out again (oh sh...). Persuade them you only want a little cargo, maybe offer to escort them to dock so you can both contribute to the CG etc.

Perhaps it's also worth taking CLogging out of the equation, it's tied up in the same Karma system after all. Suicidewindering your bounty away appears to be undesirable behaviour too.

Piracy as others have said is more or less a voluntary, end-game activity. It requires a comprehensive understanding of the game and a non-PvP meta ship, to pirate successfully is more about providing a thrilling experience for others than the actual cargo, if anything the cargo is your reward for putting on a good show.

It seems to me that Sandro is of much the same opinion, but he is in a position where if a solution cannot be found, he may have to make proper Piracy obsolete if patterns of behaviour cannot be distinguished from more toxic actions.

 

[babelfisch]

Thank you all for a mostly constructive debate so far, I have given rep to posts that I think move the conversation along or add a decent point. Thanks in particular to Sandro sticking an (admittedly off topic) oar in to help clarify a point on PowerPlay.

I see Piracy as a point where karma and C&P collide. It is intended gameplay but obviously against the 'lore' law, it is the piggy in the middle.

I'd like to furiously agree with babelfisch & several others that to be pirated is a consensual act, as a pirate you may be able to force a player to give up some cargo once, but after that it is up to that player to stay in Open & subject themselves to it again if they didn't enjoy the experience, and a fundamental part of that is to survive the encounter if the result is not a legitimate PvP fight.

The Trader faces a dilemma when they pass through pirate territory. Is it worth the risk? The Pirate currently does not face anything like the same dilemma, if the operation goes bad they just gank the hapless victim & find another target.

It should be as much of a dilemma for the Pirate as the Trader; A kill should be a last resort if the trader does not deploy hardpoints. You should really, really not want to kill them. Be the cat & toy with your prey - get their shields down but let them low wake (they escape by the skin of their teeth, awesome) & you give chase & pull them out again (oh sh...). Persuade them you only want a little cargo, maybe offer to escort them to dock so you can both contribute to the CG etc.

Perhaps it's also worth taking CLogging out of the equation, it's tied up in the same Karma system after all. Suicidewindering your bounty away appears to be undesirable behaviour too.

Piracy as others have said is more or less a voluntary, end-game activity. It requires a comprehensive understanding of the game and a non-PvP meta ship, to pirate successfully is more about providing a thrilling experience for others than the actual cargo, if anything the cargo is your reward for putting on a good show.

It seems to me that Sandro is of much the same opinion, but he is in a position where if a solution cannot be found, he may have to make proper Piracy obsolete if patterns of behaviour cannot be distinguished from more toxic actions.

That's a pretty good recap, I didn't expect the thread to be that constructive

 

[StiTch]

It seems to me that Sandro is of much the same opinion, but he is in a position where if a solution cannot be found, he may have to make proper Piracy obsolete if patterns of behaviour cannot be distinguished from more toxic actions.

Source please.

 

[Riverside]

Source please.

Just me seeing which way the wind is blowing StiTch, you quoted the source.

I could be wrong of course, but do you want to risk that? It's a dilemma isn't it

 

[StiTch]

Just me seeing which way the wind is blowing StiTch, you quoted the source.

I could be wrong of course, but do you want to risk that? It's a dilemma isn't it

Eh?

You said that it appears Sandro is of your opinion, and is in a position where he may have to make "proper" piracy obsolete - do you have a source on this, because I'd be interested to see FD going back on their original intent that all playstyles are valid as well as plans for piracy long-term, or were you using your imagination and hoping no-one would notice?

 

[babelfisch]

Eh?

You said that it appears Sandro is of your opinion, and is in a position where he may have to make "proper" piracy obsolete - do you have a source on this, because I'd be interested to see FD going back on their original intent that all playstyles are valid as well as plans for piracy long-term, or were you using your imagination and hoping no-one would notice?

I read this as: If the pirate chooses to randomly blow everyone up (=is indistinguishable from toxic actions) the karma system kicks in and gives the pirate a hard time. I know that's not what he said, but that way it makes sense

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Off the top of my head, a valid Powerplay engagement would be attacking an opposing power whilst in your own or their own control or exploited system.

Potentially it could expand to any power on power engagement, it's something we'll be looking at as part of karma.