Karma vs PvP Piracy

[Powderpanic]

Sandro, can we please be entirely honest here.

What is the point in you putting into this game, a Karma system?

It isn't going to bring players who don't want to play in Open and be potential content, out of Solo and Private group.

Its simply not and anyone telling you is is, has an agenda.
If you listen to these people on the many threads and replies that they write, it is 100% clear they do not want ANY player interaction apart from happy joy joy space waving and risk free group co-op.

Your Karma system is going to further kill off Piracy. The changes to the game over the last year have already done a pretty good job of that already.

Piracy needs the threat of death or its just space pickpocketing with limpets.. Which is zero skill and really just a bit boring.

This is not a please dont put the Karma system in because im scared it will upset my PVP, because it really wont.
This is a rather than put in a system that is a waste of yours and the dev teams programming time, why dont you actually flesh out a proper economy, the careers and ACTUAL crime and punishment.

 

[Riverside]

I'm afraid that it would just amount to instant direct credit transfer, and that's the problem.

I know of players with well over 10 billion assets who positively want to give billions to fellow player group members but have no current means of doing so beyond cargo transfer, which is impractical.

High bounty acquisition and distribution circumvents the game's time constraints because it makes transferable creds out of thin air. The murder makes the creds transferable instantly.

All serious player groups have guys who play more than 12 hours/day and gold farmers have employees or family members to do it. Time and base creds mean nothing to them.

But for the regular player it works like this: gold farmer or buddy donator sits in FAS shooting stream of buddies in shieldless stock Sidewinders, getting a kill every few seconds, then donates 100 million bounty instantly to customer/friend.

Then during downtime returns to 50 to 100 mil/Cr/hour credit generation.

So even if the full bounty came out of the FAS guys' account, for 10 hours of replenishment he's able near instantly to effect a one billion credit transfer to another player.

I'm afraid I don't think FDev will ever permit that.

But as you described earlier, the newbie is already receiving the funds from the bounty, the cash comes from nowhere. That cash being removed from the bounty holder's account adds a deterrent without adding any extra 'gameplay' surely?

Plus if the bounty holder wants to remove their bounty with a suicidewinder it comes out of their account as a credit sink. I can see that this could increase motivation for a player to give it to a friend rather than throwing it away, but they can do that now anyway.

 

[StiTch]

Sandro, can we please be entirely honest here.

What is the point in you putting into this game, a Karma system?

Unfortunately, you're wasting your time. This forum was long lost to hysteria, and people will continue to complain in whatever form they see will hurt "the griefers" most.

I'm half-silently waiting for the day to come so that people can start complaining about the severity of karma-based consequences...because they were combat logging or exploiting in some form. Because even FD want to temper it, and because I can assure anyone that the number of people CLing in the game against player or NPC across the game modes vastly exceed the number of players that would be penalised for unmotivated CMDR murders.

Can't wait to see the posts...

 

[Powderpanic]

Unfortunately, you're wasting your time. This forum was long lost to hysteria, and people will continue to complain in whatever form they see will hurt "the griefers" most.

I'm half-silently waiting for the day to come so that people can start complaining about the severity of karma-based consequences...because they were combat logging or exploiting in some form. Because even FD want to temper it, and because I can assure anyone that the number of people CLing in the game against player or NPC across the game modes vastly exceed the number of players that would be penalised for unmotivated CMDR murders.

Can't wait to see the posts...

Its unlikely that this Karma system will count any log against a non player character as naughty.
Purely because of the poop storm it would cause.

This is an attempt to remove "non consensual PVP" this forums favourite SJW term.
It will fail but like you I am eager to see it release but for a different reason.

With future threads like

"I Just got griefed in my shieldless t9 in a CG by a pirate. Why is he not banned yet?"
"I was a rival power and got killed in a powerplay region but I was in a ship with no weapons. Why is he not banned yet?"
"I have been ganked in the last month by 100 different players. FDEV can you confirm they are all now banned?"

 

[Truesilver]

But as you described earlier, the newbie is already receiving the funds from the bounty, the cash comes from nowhere. That cash being removed from the bounty holder's account adds a deterrent without adding any extra 'gameplay' surely?

Plus if the bounty holder wants to remove their bounty with a suicidewinder it comes out of their account as a credit sink. I can see that this could increase motivation for a player to give it to a friend rather than throwing it away, but they can do that now anyway.

Oh, I wasn't commenting on whether the wanted fugitive should pay his bounty out of his own funds when the bounty hunter gets his man. Although off the top of my head I see no objection to that.

I was just explaining why I don't expect Frontier to raise the player-recoverable portion of that bounty above 1,000,000 creds, where it has sat since the recoverability cap was introduced in 1.3, to prevent consensual credit transfer farming.

So basically I'm saying I don't expect Frontier to raise the PvP bounty hunting recoverability cap above 1 million, whether or not the perp has to pay it himself.

I'm half-silently waiting for the day to come so that people can start complaining about the severity of karma-based consequences...because they were combat logging or exploiting in some form. Because even FD want to temper it, and because I can assure anyone that the number of people CLing in the game against player or NPC across the game modes vastly exceed the number of players that would be penalised for unmotivated CMDR murders.

And the karma trolling is going to be a whole new form of gameplay for some people. Flying in front of regular guy in Nav or CZ or RES, having carefully rammed their Sidey down to 1% hull against a rock first ... switching Report Crimes On mid-fight ... I really hope Frontier think this one through from the perspective of those who like to put careful forethought into min/maxing their tear harvesting ...

 

[Arthur Shappey]

Sandro, can we please be entirely honest here.

What is the point in you putting into this game, a Karma system?

It isn't going to bring players who don't want to play in Open and be potential content, out of Solo and Private group.

Its simply not and anyone telling you is is, has an agenda.
...

You seem surprisingly certain in your views. The changes might nerf piracy, they might not though. And if they do, FDev will surely correct it, as piracy is part of the lore of the game. Surely we should have a bit of faith?

And secondly, whilst it won't persuade any major numbers of players to go from Solo to Open- I - for one - would spend more time in Open. I don't expect it to be perfect, indeed I also have some reservations about the karma "concept" - but I do believe FDev have their heart in the right place and are trying to do the best thing and will continue to tweak if it doesn't work better first time.

I personally have doubts this forum really represents the whole player community in an entirely balanced way. Too many quiet voices are probably enjoying the game too much to bother coming here. I also suspect some of the top complainers still can't help playing the game - fans and moaners have a high correlation in many walks of life - it's just passion for something we all care about.

I also know plenty of people playing the game who never come to this forum.

 

[Powderpanic]

Oh, I wasn't commenting on whether the wanted fugitive should pay his bounty out of his own funds when the bounty hunter gets his man. Although off the top of my head I see no objection to that.

I was just explaining why I don't expect Frontier to raise the player-recoverable portion of that bounty above 1,000,000 creds, where it has sat since the recoverability cap was introduced in 1.3, to prevent consensual credit transfer farming.

So basically I'm saying I don't expect Frontier to raise the PvP bounty hunting recoverability cap above 1 million, whether or not the perp has to pay it himself.

All redundant as the game in its current state is impossible for PVP bounty hunting.

You could put a billion credit bounty on Vette, that I could never get out of or avoid etc.
There is nothing a wing of Engineered God Roll Cutters could do that would ever enable them to kill my ship before I highwaked or if I was really worthless 15 second sanctioned combat log.

Another PVP career that was never meant to be.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

You seem surprisingly certain in your views. The changes might nerf piracy, they might not though. And if they do, FDev will surely correct it, as piracy is part of the lore of the game. Surely we should have a bit of faith?

Ah, probably best just to ignore PP. He's not happy until everyone else isn't happy either.

 

[Powderpanic]

You seem surprisingly certain in your views. The changes might nerf piracy, they might not though. And if they do, FDev will surely correct it, as piracy is part of the lore of the game. Surely we should have a bit of faith?

And secondly, whilst it won't persuade any major numbers of players to go from Solo to Open- I - for one - would spend more time in Open. I don't expect it to be perfect, indeed I also have some reservations about the karma "concept" - but I do believe FDev have their heart in the right place and are trying to do the best thing and will continue to tweak if it doesn't work better first time.

I personally have doubts this forum really represents the whole player community in an entirely balanced way. Too many quiet voices are probably enjoying the game too much to bother coming here. I also suspect some of the top complainers still can't help playing the game - fans and moaners have a high correlation in many walks of life - it's just passion for something we all care about.

I also know plenty of people playing the game who never come to this forum.

You have said it yourself. It wont get the majority of players into Open, so really what is the point of all this effort to get a few more players in there?

It wont make any real difference, so why waste the effort when there are much more needed areas for attention.

You know, like powerplay, instancing, bug fixes, flesh out careers, actual crime and punishment, player economy, npc balancing, exploring ( giving them stuff to find ). You know, actual useful stuff.

 

[StiTch]

And the karma trolling is going to be a whole new form of gameplay for some people. Flying in front of regular guy in Nav or CZ or RES, having carefully rammed their Sidey down to 1% hull against a rock first ... switching Report Crimes On mid-fight ... I really hope Frontier think this one through from the perspective of those who like to put careful forethought into min/maxing their tear harvesting ...

Agreed. If anyone thinks karma will result in "sudden taming of the griefers", I would like to warn them in the most friendly manner possible that it's not going to solve it in many cases, and will very likely be the smallest facet of the changes overall.

Luckily FD tend to have a relatively unbiased/comprehensive viewpoint. My hope is simply that they plan it fairly, and as you say, keep the exploit potential to a minimum so we can focus on the aftermath of the intended changes - and the direction to take it from there.

On that note, I would be interested to know what at present are the intended "behaviours" to be affected.

EDIT: And literally as I say that...this appears in another thread:

Hello Commanders!

Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

• Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
• Ramming at starports
• Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

------------

Pirates complain that shooting the cargo hatch is too difficult: FDEV adds cargo hatch breakers
Pirates complain that ships blow up when you destroy the drives: FDEV removes ship destruction for drives
Pirates complain that destroying shields is too difficult: FDEV adds shield breaking cargo hatch limpets
Pirates complain about traders escaping: FDEV adds FSD disruptor missiles.
Pirates complain about ships with disabled thrusters drifting away: Sandro talks about adding a tethering device

... My advice: Git gud.

Just as a friendly comment on this, pirates much less commonly complain about the flight technicalities in doing this, much more about the game's technical issues around it.

As an example I am more than happy to shoot thrusters out with ease. But if I do so, and force cargo from the target, then because the target is moving the cargo physically disappears. That's not something I am "struggling" at, that's something the game is struggling at - and I don't want it to be easier, I want it to be simply possible.

Give me a game where I can equip A-rated sensors with mods dedicated to the job of tracking a huge area, so I can keep an eye on lots of cargo over a huge range, then shoot it out from a target so I can waltz around a field collecting it...and I will damn well do that. It would actually give meaning to some of the mods out there.

My advice...the game needs to git gud

 

[DaveB]

As I said earlier in this thread, it takes two to pirate. One being the pirate and the other playing a long, doing you a favour. Yes, piracy is a valid option, yes, the game is a sand box. However, this only works if I allow you to pirate me. Stop expecting you have a right to pirate people. You have a right to play the game, if there are people who are nice enough to play the victim consider yourself lucky. There doesn't need to be a lever to force piracy upon players (ship destruction), I already agreed with playing cops and robbers or pirates and traders when I joined open. What the game needs are good game mechanics, unpunishable murder is not among them. Stop acting like a punishment for murder would harm your pirate career. Me telling you I don't want to play with you anymore will hurt your pirate career. My mother always told me don't play with the filthy kids (she didn't..). That's you.

Fair point, but there does need to be some lever for pirates to enforce their demands. Relying solely on "the other guy agrees to be pirated" really doesn't work. I'm not a pirate, they either hunt me or I hunt them and we both know that if they can't present some sort of viable threat there will be no future in ED piracy. fD are as aware of this as you and I are and that's why they are trying to strike a balance.

I pretty much agree with lots of suggestions on how to improve piracy, like a declare piracy option or the tether device. But let's see if we can find a pattern here:

Pirates complain that shooting the cargo hatch is too difficult: FDEV adds cargo hatch breakers
Pirates complain that ships blow up when you destroy the drives: FDEV removes ship destruction for drives
Pirates complain that destroying shields is too difficult: FDEV adds shield breaking cargo hatch limpets
Pirates complain about traders escaping: FDEV adds FSD disruptor missiles.
Pirates complain about ships with disabled thrusters drifting away: Sandro talks about adding a tethering device

Players complain about there being literally no consequence for ship destruction: Pirates complain this would destroy their playstyle.
Seriously?
And this with all the talk about care bears and people wanting easy mode? Is there really no honour amongst thieves? Don't you think this gets a little bit ridiculous? How about you ask FDEV to send someone over to my house so he can force me to play your victim? Apparently everything else is too difficult for you. My advice: Git gud.

Well, those lines about consequences destroying piracy aren't coming from those who want to strike a balance. The folks who want piracy to work are arguing for a balance. The folks who want rational PvP in other contexts to work are arguing for a balance. Those folks who want consequenceless murder to still be a thing or who want elite to be risk-free aren't going to want any karma system to work, are they? Fortunately, While they may have missed the mark and needed to rework it from time to time FD have always clearly been aiming for such a balance with all the changes they have made to ED mechanics and have shown themselves smart enough to not listen to that kind of disingenuous argument.

 

[babelfisch]

Sandro, can we please be entirely honest here.

If you want to be honest, how about you start with: "I don't want consequences for randomly killing players. I am a griefer and a carebear."?

What is the point in you putting into this game, a Karma system?

There are a few thousand threads about it, I suggest you start reading them.

It isn't going to bring players who don't want to play in Open and be potential content, out of Solo and Private group.

At least you are honest enough to call these players content, but it also shows that there is something completely wrong with your views.

Anyway, there are lots of players in Open that support a Karma and C&P system. And proper C&P will definetely bring some players from Solo and PG to open.

Its simply not and anyone telling you is is, has an agenda.

I think you are the only one having an agenda here.

If you listen to these people on the many threads and replies that they write, it is 100% clear they do not want ANY player interaction apart from happy joy joy space waving and risk free group co-op.

Actually that's not true. It is very clear though that you don't want any potential danger while you are destroying helpless traders and newbies. If you want that other players face risks, how about you start with yourself?

Your Karma system is going to further kill off Piracy. The changes to the game over the last year have already done a pretty good job of that already.

Nope. Also, what changes? The changes that actually improved piracy? Like shield breaking hatch breakers and FSD disruptor missiles? As said above, it's clear that you are having an agenda.

Piracy needs the threat of death or its just space pickpocketing with limpets.. Which is zero skill and really just a bit boring.

There is still the threat of death, nobodoy is going to take it away. It's even better, now there is also the threat of death for the pirate.

This is not a please dont put the Karma system in because im scared it will upset my PVP, because it really wont.
This is a rather than put in a system that is a waste of yours and the dev teams programming time, why dont you actually flesh out a proper economy, the careers and ACTUAL crime and punishment.

The Karma system is part of actual crime and punishment, tracking your activities is what makes it possible.

 

[Powderpanic]

If you want to be honest, how about you start with: "I don't want consequences for randomly killing players. I am a griefer and a carebear."?


There are a few thousand threads about it, I suggest you start reading them.


At least you are honest enough to call these players content, but it also shows that there is something completely wrong with your views.

Anyway, there are lots of players in Open that support a Karma and C&P system. And proper C&P will definetely bring some players from Solo and PG to open.



I think you are the only one having an agenda here.


Actually that's not true. It is very clear though that you don't want any potential danger while you are destroying helpless traders and newbies. If you want that other players face risks, how about you start with yourself?


Nope. Also, what changes? The changes that actually improved piracy? Like shield breaking hatch breakers and FSD disruptor missiles? As said above, it's clear that you are having an agenda.


There is still the threat of death, nobodoy is going to take it away. It's even better, now there is also the threat of death for the pirate.



The Karma system is part of actual crime and punishment, tracking your activities is what makes it possible.

Oh wow.

By breaking down each line and putting your spin on it you miss the entire essence of the post. Good job.

You might have mentioned in a later part of the post I said that this Karma thing wont affect me, yet you took it on yourself to say it would effect me by taking part of my earlier text out of context.

So yeah, nicely done and all that.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

A few comments:

* Yes, we will need to consider areas of lawless space that would normally be considered exempt from karma (such as barnacle sites), we're chewing this over.
* Regarding piracy, there are separate issues to do with collection and cost efficiency that we'd also like to address.
* A karma system will not be a panacea. Our initial implementation is also not to completely prevent specific styles of play - it is to add appropriate consequences for them.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Oh wow.

By breaking down each line and putting your spin on it you miss the entire essence of the post.

Being, that you personally don't want or see the need for a Karma system.

FDev disagree. Let's leave it to them, eh?

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

Hello Commanders!

A few comments:

* Yes, we will need to consider areas of lawless space that would normally be considered exempt from karma (such as barnacle sites), we're chewing this over.
* Regarding piracy, there are separate issues to do with collection and cost efficiency that we'd also like to address.
* A karma system will not be a panacea. Our initial implementation is also not to completely prevent specific styles of play - it is to add appropriate consequences for them.

Thanks Sandro,

As long as we keep Elite = Dangerous, I'm all for making things fair and balanced though

Too many CMDRs are under the impression that the Karma system is going to make Elite 100% safe and a PVE only, I just don't want "he who shouts the loudest" to have the deciding vote,

I want the game to retain its wild west feel of being able to do what you want without artificial limitations, but weed out the undesirable behavior, from both sides of the fence, seal clubbing and combat logging alike

 

[Sunleader]

The question of how piracy could fit in with the proposed 'karma' system has come up a few times recently, I'd like to see if we can come up with a solution.

PvP Piracy is obviously illegal according to the in-universe laws (lets call this 'lore') but positively encouraged by the game itself (the 'game') because it can be a lot of fun for both participants if done well.

So for example, I think killing the victim after cargo has been dropped could become a karma flag, but I can see flaws in that rule.

What rules do you think a karma system could use that would differentiate 'proper' pirate behaviour from ganking dressed up as piracy?

<---- Not a pure PVE Player. But clearly never considers it Fun to be Pirated.

Sorry but Pirates if they suffer from Bad Karma deserve it.
After all the Karma System is meant to Balance out the Unfair Risk distribution.

You see.
As an PvE Ship you are in a Disadvantage from the Start in a PvP Match because you lack PvP Equipment and Modules as well as the Skills for PvP.
As an PvE Ship you often use more Expensive Equipment and Ship because Fighting Ability and Maneuverability is less Importand than Cargo Space and as many Modules as possible for Mining/Trade/Exploration etc
As an PvE Ship you often have Cargo and Claims as well as Missions which you lose when you Die. And which are not compensated for at all.

In Short. An PvE Player Forced into an PvP Fight regardless of it being Ganking, Piracy or just plain Murder. Is not only likely to lose due to not being prepared and equipped for PvP. But he also loses up to 10 times as much if he Dies as an PvP Player.
Thanks to that Sorry.
But Piracy is NEVER any Fun for the Victim.



An simple Message to all Pirates and PvPers in General.
Seriously.
Stop being so damn Pathetic
Your Playing the Evil Guy. So Grow some Balls and Deal with it that the Romantic Life of an Outlaw has Risks.
Its a Joke anyways that an Trader right now has so much more Risks than an Outlaw....



God.
This is embarassing for any True PvPer.
Back in Freelancer when we Played as MaFiA we were Proud when the entire Server Ganged up on us and considered us Hostile.
Because that was Prove we were Dangerous.
And when the Game Admins came crashing down at us giving players Modded Weapons and stuff we didnt cry about it but simply took it as an badge of Honor and took to Battle. Sometimes being outnumbered in a Battle of 30 to 6

In Freelancer if you were a Pirate it wasnt like here that you had 20 systems around the pirating spot and were attacked in just 1 system where you pirated.
You had 1 system and 1 or 2 stations where you could land and everything else in the area was hostile.
And these stations were usually further out and harder to reach because you know they were Pirate stations.


Yet in this Game.
When a Pirate or PvPer has to just Shoulder half the Risk of an PvE Player they immediately Start Running to the Forums.
Rabäääää Rabäääää Evil FD not allowing Piracy.


Anyone seriously Crying about it that there is Consequences when your living as an Outlaw should just stop pvp and piracy entirely and start playing the Sims


So Greetz Sun

 

[NeilF]

Yes, we will need to consider areas of lawless space that would normally be considered exempt from karma (such as barnacle sites), we're chewing this over.

That's excellent.

If the issue of keeping sensible behaviour in anarchy locations is addressed by the proposed C&P (karma) mechanic while not significantly negatively affecting other aspects of gameplay, then please let's not be afraid to employ it.

ie: Pirates could still pirate in anarchy system, and be able to even illegally destroy some victims I assume within reasonable limitations? So what's damaged then?

* Regarding piracy, there are separate issues to do with collection and cost efficiency that we'd also like to address.

Nice to hear!

Also a means to make stolen cargo actually more profitable might be nice. eg: Missions at current applicable CGs to steal cargo and hand it in for a greater return? (Note: Obviously there's concerns over abuse of this mechanic - eg: Handing cargo over to friends)

* A karma system will not be a panacea. Our initial implementation is also not to completely prevent specific styles of play - it is to add appropriate consequences for them.

That sound a fair way forewards.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

<---- Not a pure PVE Player. But clearly never considers it Fun to be Pirated.

Sorry but Pirates if they suffer from Bad Karma deserve it.
snip rantings...

Dude, you're talking about crime and punishment, I think you're posting in the wrong thread.

This is a thread about karma,

think about it like this,

Karma = how god will judge you

C&P = how the cops will judge you

 

[StiTch]

* Regarding piracy, there are separate issues to do with collection and cost efficiency that we'd also like to address.

...pretty plox with cherries on top?

Give me a reason to mod for several km ranged sensors

But Piracy is NEVER any Fun for the Victim.

Ooh, I have your answer, provided by...your very own self

Grow some Balls

Oh, and I'll take the romantic life of an outlaw when karma gives it to me - willingly and happily. And I'll take the life of an "honourable" PvPer when the forum stops having a nervous breakdown at the prospect of any PvP content existing.