Karma vs PvP Piracy

[Riverside]

Hello Commander



I respectfully disagree with you. We want to design a karma system that adds more appropriate consequences for certain actions between human players via in-game, in-lore functionality.

So to us karma, crime and punishment are related, specifically when it comes to ships destruction because of ramming at starports, or murder crimes where the disparity between player skill/stats, ship power is extreme.

The reason combat logging is also bundled in because a karma system is likely the best way to detect it, and if in-game consequences make folk less likely to combat log, then it's probably a win all way round.

As I have stated multiple times: karma is not the one fix solution to all player versus player issues, and it's not meant to prevent (it actually doesn't in any way prevent) players from taking actions that might be unpleasant or undesirable to others. It simply tries to apply reasonable and contextual consequences to those actions. If anything, it's a risk to reward rebalance for those actions, which currently feels out of kilter.

Of course, it's going to be an ongoing challenge, so we'll see how it develops.

I don't think I've ever seen you use the quote button before Sandro

If you or a collegue could comment on this Clogging proposal I'd appreciate it, Dale said the thread would be monitored.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

..... without making it so punishing on the target that they choose not to trade in Open, of course.

This is why I'd like the karma system to 'encourage' real Bad Guy players to play in lower and lower security systems, which in turn gives those systems' security (and menace) levels some real meaning. Then, in higher sec systems, there could be high paying delivery missions of small amounts of high-value goods to these systems. The payout is good for the trader (if he/she makes it) and the booty is good for the pirate.

 

[StiTch]

..... without making it so punishing on the target that they choose not to trade in Open, of course.

That's pretty unrelated though - unless of course you're saying you don't want piracy to actually be worth doing, because you fear it might encourage it?

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's pretty unrelated though - unless of course you're saying you don't want piracy to actually be worth doing, because you fear it might encourage it?

It's a balance - traders trade in Open because they choose to - if they don't find it "fun" any more (due to facilitation of Piracy and larger financial hits per encounter) then they may choose not to be available to Pirates.

Making Piracy financially viable is a challenge because it entirely depends on the contents of the hold of the target.

 

[Huita]

Hello Sandro, i'd like to repost the question from that other thread.

Will active abuse of game mechanics, such as combat logging, be in the same boat as normal but "bad" behaviour such as killing and ramming and whatnot?

I mean, it makes sense to have different mechanics for those. Combat logging and the like is very, very bad and should be dealt with on meta level, ramming and killing is just illegal and should be dealt with ingame (but not on the current laughable level). At least i think so.

 

[Cosmos]

For the same reasons it's needed now...some people are very particular about who they play with. And, like it or not, some players don't want any​ combat PvP at all, karma, C&P or otherwise. The game is big enough to support all three modes.

I don't particularly have a problem with solo but I do with pg because its effectively created two games with the pg being given special treatment and privileges. Its a lazy and cheap solution for the perceived 'griefer' problem, all of which would have been better managed with an EvE style security system.

So here we are with the devs endlessly catering to a bunch of players who constitute <1% of the player base. I sense FD is going the same way of UO back in the day when in an effort to appease the moaners, and get a few more customers, they wrecked their game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So here we are with the devs endlessly catering to a bunch of players who constitute <1% of the player base. I sense FD is going the same way of UO back in the day when in an effort to appease the moaners they wrecked their game.

Where do you get the 1% from? Frontier don't publish statistics on game mode choice.

 

[Truesilver]

This is why I'd like the karma system to 'encourage' real Bad Guy players to play in lower and lower security systems, which in turn gives those systems' security (and menace) levels some real meaning. Then, in higher sec systems, there could be high paying delivery missions of small amounts of high-value goods to these systems. The payout is good for the trader (if he/she makes it) and the booty is good for the pirate.

In principle I agree, but in practice I'm afraid location-specific PvP can't exist without a reason for the area in question to be a player hotspot.

If a PvP pirate just went to a random low sec location and waited for a trader, he could wait for weeks. Literally weeks.

There really have to be two things: (1) a reason in general for the other guy to do the activity (eg enhanced trade profits for low sec) but also (2) a very specific reason to do it in a handful of systems. Otherwise the galaxy is simply too big.

This is why for PvP it's pretty much CG's or Powerplay HQ's or the latest FotM event e.g. alien stuff. And believe me, I have waited for days of my life in Powerplay HQ's, watching Netflix with one eye and the Bandwidth with the other eye and constantly relogging, to find a target. And I don't even usually have any player instancing issues...

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I don't particularly have a problem with solo but I do with pg because its effectively created two games with the pg being given special treatment and privileges

What treatment? What privileges?

The only real difference is that the various PGs have self-imposed codes of conduct.

 

[Powderpanic]

Hello Commander



I respectfully disagree with you. We want to design a karma system that adds more appropriate consequences for certain actions between human players via in-game, in-lore functionality.

So to us karma, crime and punishment are related, specifically when it comes to ships destruction because of ramming at starports, or murder crimes where the disparity between player skill/stats, ship power is extreme.

The reason combat logging is also bundled in because a karma system is likely the best way to detect it, and if in-game consequences make folk less likely to combat log, then it's probably a win all way round.

As I have stated multiple times: karma is not the one fix solution to all player versus player issues, and it's not meant to prevent (it actually doesn't in any way prevent) players from taking actions that might be unpleasant or undesirable to others. It simply tries to apply reasonable and contextual consequences to those actions. If anything, it's a risk to reward rebalance for those actions, which currently feels out of kilter.

Of course, it's going to be an ongoing challenge, so we'll see how it develops.

Thank you for replying but it is not the combat logging or station ramming I have issue with.

Combat logging is cheating and should be dealt with as such.
Station ramming is just lame and basically zero skill trolling.

Both are very different to killing another ship in a game that is designed to allow us to kill other ships.

Yes there is ZERO penalty for the aggressor for which most PVP groups have been screaming out for something to make our game a little more deep for years.

But there is also SO SO SO many ways not to be the victim in your game that a Karma system just seems redundant.

Make Crime and Punishment a thing in game with in game LORE, not some mystical naughty step for doing something you designed for us to be able to do.

I have said it before and said it again, Crime and Punishment for players is not going to work. ALL the time you leave in so many escape routes for even the lowest tier PVP player to use.

15 seconds legit log
High wake

The one time you guys NEARLY put in an effective weapon for us to use, the FSD disruption missiles. You guys nerfed it to near uselessness before it was released.

Yes it resets and FSD but if you speak to any competent PVP player, they are not a concern because the effect is so weak.

If you want Open to be vibrant and balanced, let the players sort it out. Yes it will make it harder but that goes both ways.

You might even get some of the big players groups back and doing their thing. Merchant Marines and Galcop could actually be a threat to pirates. Etc etc etc

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Hello Sandro, i'd like to repost the question from that other thread.

Will active abuse of game mechanics, such as combat logging, be in the same boat as normal but "bad" behaviour such as killing and ramming and whatnot?

I mean, it makes sense to have different mechanics for those. Combat logging and the like is very, very bad and should be dealt with on meta level, ramming and killing is just illegal and should be dealt with ingame (but not on the current laughable level). At least i think so.

Karma system is in-game level. You are bad boy - you get bad karma. You get bad karma - you get treated like criminal. Simple as that.

Combat logging might be seen as cheating rules of engagement, violating them. Yeah, concept is a bit meta, but punishment certainly have to be in-game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The only real difference is that the various PGs have self-imposed codes of conduct.

.... and the ability to play with selected players without having others' gameplay imposed upon them - which seems to annoy some players (and has done from the very beginning of development).

 

[flyauburn41]

I'm sorry but to me this is not true in the slightest. Traders do not care if you are some sort of group, alone or have a "CODE". They are acting in the moment and will go down 1 of several paths to escape all of which are easily countered. Killing a trader only makes them less likely to play in open...that is all.

I have debated this with the "CODE" for over 2 years now and my theory on pushing players to trade in private/solo has been proven correct. You can talk as much rubbish about "threats must be taken seriously" as you like but killing traders when they run makes you a murderer not a pirate and frankly ruins the piracy profession for the rest of us real pirates!!

Traders expect pirates to be murderers now due to some players attempts at piracy and it is making the act more difficult than ever. Learn to pirate without killing and you can call yourself a pirate, until then its only fair you are tarred with the same brush as other ganker/griefer types by the Karma system.

This just makes you a happy joy joy pickpocket that absolutely nobody fears or has heard of, not a pirate. Pirates should be feared and be the source of legend. You are neither, whoever you are. WE, are The Code.

 

[Cosmos]

Where do you get the 1% from? Frontier don't publish statistics on game mode choice.

No but Mobius does. 36.5k registered (not active) members of the group, vs number of copies of ED sold > 1 mil I believe.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

In principle I agree, but in practice I'm afraid location-specific PvP can't exist without a reason for the area in question to be a player hotspot.

If a PvP pirate just went to a random low sec location and waited for a trader, he could wait for weeks. Literally weeks.

Hence the need for traders to be given good reason for going to these systems with high-value goods. Pirates need targets, so perhaps to begin with the traders would be going to just a few 'notorious' systems, with a high-reward on offer for doing so (and, in turn, the pirates know which systems)

 

[Robert Maynard]

No but Mobius does. 36.5k registered (not active) members of the group, vs number of copies of ED sold > 1 mil I believe.

... and the active proportion of those >1M copies sold?

.... and, not forgetting, other Private Groups are available (every player can create one after all)....

 

[GreyAreaUK]

No but Mobius does. 36.5k registered (not active) members of the group, vs number of copies of ED sold > 1 mil I believe.

There are quite a few Mobius PGs, and quite a few other PGs that have a no-PvP rule. Fleetcomm for one. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find the bulk of PGs are non-PvP.

 

[flyauburn41]

Sandro, can we please be entirely honest here.

What is the point in you putting into this game, a Karma system?

It isn't going to bring players who don't want to play in Open and be potential content, out of Solo and Private group.

Its simply not and anyone telling you is is, has an agenda.
If you listen to these people on the many threads and replies that they write, it is 100% clear they do not want ANY player interaction apart from happy joy joy space waving and risk free group co-op.

Your Karma system is going to further kill off Piracy. The changes to the game over the last year have already done a pretty good job of that already.

Piracy needs the threat of death or its just space pickpocketing with limpets.. Which is zero skill and really just a bit boring.

This is not a please dont put the Karma system in because im scared it will upset my PVP, because it really wont.
This is a rather than put in a system that is a waste of yours and the dev teams programming time, why dont you actually flesh out a proper economy, the careers and ACTUAL crime and punishment.

Can't rep this post enough.

 

[Cosmos]

It's a balance - traders trade in Open because they choose to - if they don't find it "fun" any more (due to facilitation of Piracy and larger financial hits per encounter) then they may choose not to be available to Pirates.

Making Piracy financially viable is a challenge because it entirely depends on the contents of the hold of the target.

THe problem is the economy is scripted and not player led. Therefore people dont carry anything of value. If I was transporting a god rolled item or rare blueprint it could be worth billions (given how much money people have these days) on a player auction house.

solo/pg further limits the games potential since even if we did have valuable items in our hold pirating them wouldnt be possible since folks would take the path of least resistance. Whilst I understand some people want to limit their interactions with others the choices Frontier have made really have gimped the game imo.

A good example of this is the CG system. Its an artificial way to curate and herd players together. As it stands its hard to see ED ever becoming stellar because many of the problems the game has are hard coded into it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

THe problem is the economy is scripted and not player led. Therefore people dont carry anything of value. If I was transporting a god rolled item or rare blueprint it could be worth billions (given how much money people have these days) on a player auction house.

solo/pg further limits the games potential since even if we did have valuable items in our hold pirating them wouldnt be possible since folks would take the path of least resistance. Whilst I understand some people want to limit their interactions with others the choices Frontier have made really have gimped the game imo.

A good example of this is the CG system. Its an artificial way to curate and herd players together. As it stands its hard to see ED ever becoming stellar because many of the problems the game has are hard coded into it.

One person's problem with the economy may very well be another person's feature (in that it cannot be destroyed by others) - and, given the size of the galaxy, tracking a galactic player-driven economy would be a challenge that would not seem to be met by any games out there.

Frontier did not design the game to be limited to playing among other players - and I'd expect that a considerable number of players backed it on that basis. Again, one person's opinion regarding limitation is another's regarding freedom to choose who to play with - from the outset, by design.

I see CGs as more of a feature that Frontier has put in place to let players participate in a goal, make some credits and possibly (if they want to) play it in Open knowing that there will be those that like to target those participating in the CG.

Everyone's personal definition of "stellar" is probably different....