Can we discuss Karma system and it's impact on PvP piracy, instead of discussing impact of Open and Solo? Because those things are not related. There's huge difference in PKers and people doing faction wars. Tracking will be difficult and FD knows it. However I believe it is doable.
Karma vs PvP Piracy
- Thread starter Riverside
- Start date
I would pay at least 200 RL US dollars for truly max spec drives and distro for just one ship, or several billion creds.
Not sayin that's the way I want the game to go but if it did, that's what I would pay.
Well, combat logging mechanism is not ingame so why should it be punished ingame? Makes more sense to apply shadow- or just plain bans instead.
...pretty plox with cherries on top?
Give me a reason to mod for several km ranged sensors
Ooh, I have your answer, provided by...your very own self
Oh, and I'll take the romantic life of an outlaw when karma gives it to me - willingly and happily. And I'll take the life of an "honourable" PvPer when the forum stops having a nervous breakdown at the prospect of any PvP content existing.
Going to Answer all of these at once.
Because its all the same rubbish anyways.
1.
No.
I am Talking about Karma.
Because you see thats the Problem with Games.
If they Implemented actual Fair Crime Punishment. Most of you would Quit the Game.
Because if you Kill an Commander and actually have to Pay the Damage you caused when you get Killed. And that not just in one System but in any non Anarchy System. And also not just if you Respawn on a Legal Station but in all cases of you being Killed.
Then lets be honest. 90% of the Current PvPers would instantly Quit the Game and Stop being PvPers.
True Crime Punishment is Impossible in Games. At least unless you want to go an super Hardcore Way like in Life is Feudal. Where once you have fallen below a certain Crime lvl you are a Criminal for Life.
Hence Piracy like any act of Killing needs to be going into Karma.
2.
Well then lets just make a Simple Calculation here.
I am a Trader.
I got a T9 Transport. I am actually Equipped for some Defenses. So I got a Rebuy of about 8 Million. And I got about 450 Tons of Cargo.
Lets say I got a normal Route of about 2k Profit per Ton. With an good thats worth about 10k per Ton Buyprice.
My Total Possible Profit. = about 900k for the Tour
My Total Possible Risk. = roughly 12 Million Credits.
My Total Possible Damage that I can cause to the Player who Attacks me. = About 2 Million.
Now Compare that to a PvP Pirate.
A Vulture. An Ship that will easily Massacre that T9 Transport. And which can hold its own or Escape from any Threat its faced with.
Fitted for PvP you get about 2 Million Rebuy.
Now for the Assault you get 500-1k Bounty and for the Kill 6k Bounty. So not even worth thinking about....
You can only Capture max about 16 Tons of Cargo alone.
So your Total Possible Profit. About 150k from Raiding that T9
Your Total Possible loss. About 2 Million.
The Total Damage you can Cause to the other Player a whopping 12 Million Credits.
Notice something ?
Now I got the Balls to Fly with an Risk of my Cargo and any Damage I cause to others.
How many of you PvP Pirates have the Balls to actually Fly with the Risk of having to Pay for all the Damages you caused ?
FD being so annoyed by the Suicide Winder that they decided to Fix it. Is telling me a Good Deal about who of us got Balls and who does not *gg*
If you wanted an actually realistic Crime Punishment Scenario.
Your Potential Loss here. Would be around 120 Million because the Insurance would not Pay for you Pirating.
Your Potential Loss if this was Fair. Would be around the 15 Million to make sure that your Risk reflects the Damage you cause to another Player.
Your Potential Loss right now however. Is just 2 Million. Because for Piracy you dont need any Big Ship.
You could Use an Conda which would Increase the Potential Loss to about 12 Million. So about the same as the T9 due to his Cargo loss. But your Possible Profit would also Skyrocket. Because a Conda has enough Cargobay to easily get a Profit of about 2 Million out of that T9s Cargo.
So well if your in favor of a Proper Crime Punishment System.
Great.
Then I am also fine with Excluding Pirates from Karma effects.
But lets face it.
You will be up on the highest Barricades if your Bounty would be Galaxy wide (except Anarchy) and would actually reflect the Damage you have done to other Players.
Which gets us up to third.
3.
No Guys.
Most of you PvPers are not in the least fine with a Fair Crime and Punishment System.
You can see that whenever the Suggestion actually comes up.
Cause just like with Topics like this where the PvE Players come in to Protest.
Whenever an Suggestion comes up to increase Crime Punishment even by the slightest bit. You guys Swarm that Topic to Protest it.
Greetz
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Yeah I'm not trying to have a mode debate but simply pointing out that piracy is a non starter because people dont carry anything of real value and they can choose to become invisible to other players.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ent-Proposal?p=5662061&viewfull=1#post5662061
You can't punish CLogging directly because intent can't reliably be detected. That's where the Karma system scores well, it can identify patterns of behaviour (in theory
).You can apply a rule to a combat log that doesn't unduly punish the innocent while giving some discouragement to deliberate use.
This is where the risk to the pirate should be correctly calibrated to the system government. In a rich, corporate, High-sec system, there should be almost as little risk to a trader as in Solo.
This would be done by providing enough well-organised Authority vessels to basic-scan every vessel arriving in the system. If they are Wanted, gotcha, and if they are clean but showing a piracy loadout, the authority vessels should stalk them the entire time they are in supercruise. Interdict someone, and seconds later the SWAT team will pile in. In especially paranoid or secure systems, being tooled up for crime or even well armed without reputation or military rank should be grounds for an immediate and firm request to leave the system. In this scenario, I don't see what a player pirate, even a role-player, would be doing there except for a hurried transit to a less well-policed system.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ent-Proposal?p=5662061&viewfull=1#post5662061
You can't punish CLogging directly because intent can't reliably be detected. That's where the Karma system scores well, it can identify patterns of behaviour (in theory
You can apply a rule to a combat log that doesn't unduly punish the innocent while giving some discouragement to deliberate use.
Well yeah but you can just use another mechanism that, if it identifies REPEATED behaviour of combat logging, is issuing a shadow- or plain ban. But it doesn't make much sense for PF to lower somebody's karma because he suddenly and magically vanished into space. At the very least, they'd mark it for Thargoid spy.
Yes if the output from the karma system says 'this Cmdr is a habitual CLogger' you can throw the book at them. But you can deter CLogging independantly of the karma system as per the link I provided.
I agree there is no need to apply karma points to individual CLogging events, although Sandro suggested it.
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*Nods in agreement*
This. A bunch of people have once again dragged hotel California in here. Frankly? Get out. No-one cares about your petty mode argument. It's not relevant to the situation. Piracy occurs in all modes. Improving mechanics for piracy (for all concerned) is the topic and the usual offenders should damn well know better.
Take it to california. Please. Frontier is actually engaging here and your incessant shouting will just cause them to disengage again.
This is important. Karma should be something that is global. There are opportunities here to improve some mechanics without necessarily having to rewrite the entire criminal code.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, Frontier do have to tread very carefully with the proposed Karma/C&P changes, there is a real danger that PVP piracy - already an endangered species - could become virtually or entirely extinct if they take a wrong step. Although the Pilots Fed rankings cover the galaxy I am of the belief that PVP pirates do need safe havens in anarchy and possibly even low security systems. In these havens PVP pirates desperately need the ability to 'work off' bad Karma they have earned in higher security systems, be that through paying off or bribing some corrupt superpower officials, (exceptionally high cost with penalties), through the mission system or through a combination of the two and/or possibly other avenues. This process should not be a quick thing but it can't be over Draconian in length/grind either, it needs to - and this is the tough part - enhance and enrich the gameplay of pirates while at the same time being just enough of a pain in the backside.
The Karma/C&P changes have to be active across the board though, although this thread is about PVP piracy I desperately want any changes to affect my game too, to make me think, consider and act accordingly in everything from route plotting to ship loadouts, from the missions I take to how I face and deal with obstacles during said missions.
Although there is no way on earth it will happen we, the vocal forumites, could make Frontier's job a little easier if we could only have an honest debate rather than the hyperbolic nonsense we all engage in from time to time. Wouldn't it be great if we could stop hinting that large numbers of PVE'ers want 'no risk' or 'safe space', wouldn't it be great if we stopped labelling most PVP'ers as 'griefers', wouldn't it be refreshing if we acknowledges that certain p[layers from both the PVE and PVP camp use, and sometimes abuse, the mode switching system when it suits them. The hyperbole, made up statistics, fake videos, insults, exploits, heresay and general nonsense are not going to help Frontier implement a good system, it hinders it - from all sides.
The Karma/C&P changes have to be active across the board though, although this thread is about PVP piracy I desperately want any changes to affect my game too, to make me think, consider and act accordingly in everything from route plotting to ship loadouts, from the missions I take to how I face and deal with obstacles during said missions.
Although there is no way on earth it will happen we, the vocal forumites, could make Frontier's job a little easier if we could only have an honest debate rather than the hyperbolic nonsense we all engage in from time to time. Wouldn't it be great if we could stop hinting that large numbers of PVE'ers want 'no risk' or 'safe space', wouldn't it be great if we stopped labelling most PVP'ers as 'griefers', wouldn't it be refreshing if we acknowledges that certain p[layers from both the PVE and PVP camp use, and sometimes abuse, the mode switching system when it suits them. The hyperbole, made up statistics, fake videos, insults, exploits, heresay and general nonsense are not going to help Frontier implement a good system, it hinders it - from all sides.
It is a good point but
a) if the playerbase were all brilliant at the game it would be boring for everyone. Make a few mistakes, have some fun, and
b) it doesn't further the debate in any way, it's just complaining about others not being as good at a game instead of being proud that you are above average.
Get over it imo. If you're really are that good, you can entertain your audience with your end-game activity, be good content for others, as they are for you. Every so often you'll get a rare & meaningful encounter with a like-minded player.
Not sure what a C&P(karma) mechanic has to do with SOLO/GROUP other than if (ideally) it applies to the illegal destruction of NPCs to?
In an ideal mechanic, if the rest of the game can handle it, if you go around butchering NPCs your should end up in the same position as butchering CMDRs surely?
Well done. I think that was the crux of the post, which is let's stick to the topic of karma vs piracy, and skip the mode discussion? Karma could and should be global, and not player, or rather PF specific. I think that's mostly been established already.
It just depends on whether Frontier agree; they are initially targeting commanders alone, and yet making it global would actually improve the game for the entire player base, not just some of it.
Well, that certainly isn't my reading of Frontier's intent so far. If you are an NPC that is the subject of a massacre mission, it appears most unlikely that the PC who massacres you will suffer any new consequences, because you aren't a member of the Pilots Federation.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Not exactly. Sandro has been quite clear that actions against NPCs would not be tracked for karma purposes.
The karma system as it stands would impact player to player activity. Where it should actually affect player to player and player to AI. This means the system is consistent and global.
I think Frontier have been looking at this as a singular "punish bad people" method, rather than a broader karma system. When the latter is probably going to be more effective.
Hence the use of could and should. It should be global. Should. Not is. Because it isn't. And that to me seems to be a bit of a missed opportunity. It's also, unfortunately, just further entrenching the disparity, rather than improving the experience.
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That is the crux that I am constantly wrestling with, I get NPC's are 'different', I get the PF lore bit, I get some players are much more, ahem, 'creative' in their choices and the possible negatives involved. However, I do think there is an opportunity here for Frontier to enrich the game for all and not just those that frequent and PVP in open/pg's.
Powderpanic
Banned
So you are saying people should just be happy to wholey average at a game and the game should cater for the lowest tier skill level? Really?
Is that what gaming has become today?
Lets not go for depth or skill, as long as little 12 year old Harry can have fun for 20mins a day after school before he has to do his homework?
You already have two modes for players who dont wish to get to a level where Open is safe for them.... Should Open be an easy mode as well?