I think that would be a mistake. I agree that actions against NPCs shouldn't have the same karmic weight as real players, but there should be some effect. Possible exceptions would be missions to kill an NPC since the act is 'sanctioned'. But if I decide to go on an NPC murder spree then I feel that I should have some karmic consequences.
Karma vs PvP Piracy
- Thread starter Riverside
- Start date
I think that would be a mistake. I agree that actions against NPCs shouldn't have the same karmic weight as real players, but there should be some effect. Possible exceptions would be missions to kill an NPC since the act is 'sanctioned'. But if I decide to go on an NPC murder spree then I feel that I should have some karmic consequences.
After reading the last few pages it becomes that those who oppose a karma system don't do so because they fear the consequences, but because they don't like the name. If we would call it Crime & Punishment everything would be fine. It's either this or people just still don't understand what FDEV tries to achieve. In that case I have to wonder why you are discussing something that you don't understand.
How about instead of Karma it just gets labelled under 'Reputation'? It's not quite the same, but it's close. Ish.
Could be notoriety
It holds a sort of prestige to it to... Some players live for the notoriety, having a horrendous amount of it would enable some serious bragging rights... i guess
Could be notoriety
It holds a sort of prestige to it to... Some players live for the notoriety, having a horrendous amount of it would enable some serious bragging rights... i guess
Oh, I like that. Much better. +1
Send in the Gnosis! As soon as the Gnosis arrives in system, given the Gnosis is controlled by a faction, surely the system stops being lawless and instead is under the control/protection of that faction, right?
As regards NPCs being included in the C&P (karma) mechanic...
Massacre missions could negate the C&P (karma) mechanic for that activity. The mission giver would cover up the crime for you
Imagine an OPEN CG in the future where activity is going on, and high level CMDRs/pirates might be able to undertake some rare missions to destroy Pilots Federation members in that location. Again with the mission meaning the crime will be covered up. ie: Legalised ganking only under controlled conditions, to the amount/degree wish to push those missions out etc.
Could be notoriety
It holds a sort of prestige to it to... Some players live for the notoriety, having a horrendous amount of it would enable some serious bragging rights... i guess
Yes, let's call it notoriety. BTW, I believe the reason it gets called karma system is not because it's about some buddhist way of playing the game, or good and evil, it's called karma system because it remembers your actions post the rebuy screen. Suicidewinding or paying a bounty is not enough for a high security system. The reason they'll revoke your docking rights is because you are a notorious criminal. As long as people don't understand this it's kind of pointless to discuss it.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
The "could" is, of course, true. The "should" is a matter of opinion. The karma system would seem to be a means to deal with particular player behaviours (against other players) that are considered detrimental to the health of the game (i.e. population, probably).
There is a fundamental disparity - players buy the game, presumably to enjoy it. NPCs are provided for our enjoyment - by the game - and as such are under Frontier's control - the same cannot be said of players, hence why Frontier seem to be considering the implementation of a tracking system to discourage certain player behaviours (against other players).
That's not to say that the C&P system could not be changed to deepen gameplay with respect to player / NPC interactions - however, I expect that that's not as high on the priority list at the moment, unlike (it would seem) the karma system.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Sandro has referred to it as a Pilots' Federation Reputation in another thread - which, apart from the ranks, has been missing from the outset (given that each CMDR has reputations with the SuperPowers and Factions).
This has not worked so far. Instead people are fleeing to Solo and PG's while Open gets less populated. The imbalance is too strong, the risk vs reward mechanic is laughably offset in favor of the murderers currently. The players can not "sort this out", this is a problem of game mechanics allowing (even encouraging) griefing far too much. The game itself needs to change to make the balance more neutral, to implement some meaningful costs to being a murderous commander. No one wants to take away the possibility of playing like a killer, rather simply make it not a free and punishless act.
Sandro sounds like he has a good grasp on the situation, and I'm hopeful that Frontier is on the right track.
You have no proof of that what so ever.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Why then are Frontier considering a karma system to discourage particular player / player interactions then, if they are not in some way concerned about the population of Open?
Sandro started talking about enhanced consequences for attacking clean players over a year ago - it would seem that they have been a mite concerned for some time now....
Even people like Gluttony Fang are agreeing that something needs to be done about C&P...
To be fair, it takes as narrow minded an approach to believe that most PvPers/pirates don't want improved C&P. In fact almost every PvPer I know wants it. But there does need to be a level of understanding that it's not going to be "magical naughty boy elimination", it isn't going to fix the game mode rift, it will affect players on both ends of the spectrum, and it has to be something that provides consequence to antisocial playstyles without that existing consequence - not straight up shutting them down.
In an ideal world such a system would develop deep into handling criminals like criminals immsersively; perhaps KoS in, and annihilated if scanned before landing at, a high sec system - thereby pushing them more into the anarchy systems they belong in (unless they want to walk a thin wire to retrieve something from a high sec system)...potentially even additional contacts/black market trade profits/whatever being available to them, given again that it's risky.
What most open players/PvPers/pirates are simply interested in preventing is the mob mentality here encouraging karma to be either "stop ganking/pirating/whatever", or almost worse, "sure we'll let you pirate as long as it's done on our terms with this nice consent form filled out here, here and here". The ability to play as desired must remain - with an increase in risk for falling foul of karma, and heavy penalties for being caught trousers down with a poor karma score (e.g. strongly increased rebuy).
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I absolutely agree and that's exactly what the karma system aims at.
That's not happening here. What is happening here is that the ganker/griefer mob demands that there will be no consequences for criminals because it would hurt their play style.
Powderpanic
Banned
See its replies like this which is going to send Elite DANGEROUS ( YES I KNOW IT DOESNT MEAN WHAT I THINK IT MEANS ) down a nanny state route.
So a player cannot deal with the player issue? Are you kidding me? I honest think you need to sit down and think this through.
IF they did work so that players were ACTUALLY a risk to naughty players, then you would have a deterrent to naughty players being naughty.
YES it would involve more work than the FDEV naughty step, like actual balance and depth of game play with real C&P
YES it would force the general population to get BETTER at the game, rather than hoping FDEV makes space safe for them with their Karma mechanic ( which will not make a big enough difference to stopping players getting ganked unless it is so punishing it kills PVP. Which Sandro has pretty much already stated is not going to happen )
Those who do not wish to improve to that level can stay in Solo or Private group.
NO it wouldn't be an instant fix, as it would need the players of Open to organise themselves against the roaming gank squads of which there really aren't that many.
But to say that players cannot fix an issues caused by players is insanely stupid.
Do you know how to beat the very best gank squad? Have more ships!
The only challenge for the defence, whiteknights, galcops, merchant marines would be to organise and learn how to build their ships properly.
The very best of SDC would not last very long against superior numbers. Yes currently instancing would hinder that but if we are talking magical fixes for a player issue, I have to believe that FDEV have instancing on their radar. I have seen 25+ ships drop in on an instance before and others have had many more than that. So it is possible, it just needs to be worked on until that becomes the standard.
So you want to say players cannot fix it. No in the games current state they could not but we are talking about changes that could come in the future.
The FDEV naughty step isnt going to do anywhere close to what the people who still arent going to play in open are hoping. I look forward to be proven wrong.
I have been pretty much on point with the outcome of ever change that FDEV has made so far, so while publicly people can say I am wrong. I havent been yet.
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I see this far less than I see proposals that would effectively shut down piracy or whatever, but...not a debate to get into with you personally, if you are not such a person
In my eyes though, C&P is positive both sides, and could help give the risk that many criminals are after. I'm bored of the odd interdiction from a DBE, or mowing down a field of innocent NPCs for mats, and being welcomed with open arms to the high sec system next door...I'll throw my full praise at the forum if I'm ever interdicted by an NPC wing that destroys me, or forces me to stealth dock at a station
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Powderpanic
Banned
Gluttonfang ohwow
People like Sundae, Majinvash, Rinzer etc have been asking for C&P for years.
Karma is not C&P, its a mechanic based on what someone decides is naughty and then is punished with tbc which will not be lore based, just hand of god.
C&P with higher rebuys, restricted docking, more aggressive (Ha maybe even a mild challenge ) NPC, Galaxy wide bounties that actually matter etc are what are needed.
But proper C&P needs a flip side in that you have to flesh out the career paths to make them mildly viable.
This is a lot more work than I think FDEV want to really put into something that isnt going to make players come into Open anyway, so the Karma thing is just a bandaid to make the community think they are being supported against Griefing.
You just proved my point for me.
Answer me this question: why does a C&P + Karma system threaten you so much? What about it makes you so upset? If you say it isn't going to work at all then why do you care so much about it not happening?