Karma vs PvP Piracy

[babelfisch]

I see this far less than I see proposals that would effectively shut down piracy or whatever, but...not a debate to get into with you personally, if you are not such a person

In my eyes though, C&P is positive both sides, and could help give the risk that many criminals are after. I'm bored of the odd interdiction from a DBE, or mowing down a field of innocent NPCs for mats, and being welcomed with open arms to the high sec system next door...I'll throw my full praise at the forum if I'm ever interdicted by an NPC wing that destroys me, or forces me to stealth dock at a station

I guess it really depends on which side of the fence you are standing. From a pirates perspective it looks like the forums wants to kill piracy, from a traders perspective it looks like the forums want to force him into something he doesn't enjoy, and from my perspective it looks like everyone is going nuts.

 

[StiTch]

Karma is not C&P, its a mechanic based on what someone decides is naughty and then is punished with tbc which will not be lore based, just hand of god.

C&P with higher rebuys, restricted docking, more aggressive (Ha maybe even a mild challenge ) NPC, Galaxy wide bounties that actually matter etc are what are needed.
But proper C&P needs a flip side in that you have to flesh out the career paths to make them mildly viable.

I just raised a new post that briefly covers punishment via prevention, or punishment via engaging risk, and a proposal here...but in effect, exactly what you talk about: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-proposal-preventative-v-risk-based-penalties

In effect it's important for FD to correctly establish how the punishment will roll out, which I believe is the concern here, and my personal concern. If they choose to punish players by locking parts of the game out, they will have failed so hard that there will be no words to describe it. They will have failed so hard that the England Football Team will look successful in comparison.

They can make this work with karma if the penalties are correct...that is, that someone falling foul of karma finds themself in an increased risk environment, according to what he's up to, in a manner that - in some sense - increases their engagement and sense of being a criminal. Not let off the hook, but pushing them to play in a perhaps more defensive manner.

Yes, the main "cause" of lower karma ratings is at this point seen to be murder, but I suspect it will hit CLers and the like far more...so the main thing to focus on is that the punishments don't turn ED into "forum approved consentplay" once acquired.If I am a serial killer, make me feel like I'm a notorious murderer...not someone that's been told I am not allowed out my room for the night.

The details around karma acquisition itself will be an interesting discussion later down the line...*chuckles*

 

[Powderpanic]

You just proved my point for me.

Answer me this question: why does a C&P + Karma system threaten you so much? What about it makes you so upset? If you say it isn't going to work at all then why do you care so much about it not happening?

Have you read ANYTHING I have written properly.

Its not a threat, I don't think its going to work. I believe I have been pretty clear about this. The only thing it might do is eventually kill legitimate piracy ( AS PER THIS THREAD. Sandro says he is going to make sure this doesnt happen but seeing as 90% of people who get pirated scream GRIEFER afterwards... Lets just see how he manages that )

Upset is not the term, its a want for the game to improve. Not for the dev team to waste their time on Snake Oil.

Snake oil, is something that people thought would heal their woes but in fact DID NOTHING!

 

[sb413197]

I'm a bit worried this may make it harder for me to pirate.

I very rarely kill my prey. But the threat...the THREAT. Without a threat I may have to use limpet breakers, shoot out he cargo hatch etc etc. Right now I storm in with my big old anaconda, give them a hard ram to say hello, and collect without even getting a bounty usually.

 

[DaveB]

...Karma is not C&P, its a mechanic based on what someone decides is naughty...

And so what if it is?

I don't agree with you, but even if you were 100% correct, so what?

It's FD's game, they are ALLOWED to say "doing this is naughty." Loads of other game companies do it and don't suffer as a result. They could even say "We don't want you doing X and we'll ban you if we catch you. even if the game itself doesn't prevent you" an your choice as a player would be the same as mine. Like it or lump it.

When concrete proposals start being made or related features start appearing for beta testing then by all means make arguments for or against them based on their then-demonstrable effect on gameplay, but to stand against the idea on principle because it's a game company imposing an arbitrary rule on their game is as much a losing proposition as skinny-dipping in a black hole.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

So a player cannot deal with the player issue? Are you kidding me? I honest think you need to sit down and think this through.

I think if you want people to actually listen to your opinions then you need to stop coming over as a shouty ranty opinionated mad bloke.

Because right now I pretty much dismiss your posts unread.

Think about that.

 

[Powderpanic]

And so what if it is?

I don't agree with you, but even if you were 100% correct, so what?

It's FD's game, they are ALLOWED to say "doing this is naughty." Loads of other game companies do it and don't suffer as a result. They could even say "We don't want you doing X and we'll ban you if we catch you. even if the game itself doesn't prevent you" an your choice as a player would be the same as mine. Like it or lump it.

When concrete proposals start being made or related features start appearing for beta testing then by all means make arguments for or against them based on their then-demonstrable effect on gameplay, but to stand against the idea on principle because it's a game company imposing an arbitrary rule on their game is as much a losing proposition as skinny-dipping in a black hole.

Loads of other companies.. Really?

How many other sandbox space games do you have that share 3 modes, two of which can entirely block you off from other players yet 100% interact with the galaxy.

Yes other game companies deal with Griefing and Trolling in exciting and interesting ways.

But they mostly had the vision to decide what game they wanted in the first place and the bravery to follow through and compete that game.

Want PVP, Sure here is a PVP server but you cannot carry over your PVE account or effect that world from your PVE account.

Want PVE only, great here is a PVE only server.

Want a bit of both, Here are dedicated PVP areas and outside of these you cannot as much as graze the knee ( or arrow to it ) of another player.

Then we have Elite.

Want to avoid PVP done and even ALL other players, you have solo or Private solo.
Want to still effect the PVP players in game from your safe ninja mode, no problems fella. Fill those boots.
Want a way to leave any PVP engagement, that you dont like anymore even if you started it. If you can last longer than 25seconds, Not a problem chuck! Heres high wake.
Want an approved way to leave a PVP engagement that will troll the aggressor, even if they are RP'ing the hell out of it. Done my friend.. Here is a 15seconds logout timer.

Yes... There are many many other games that have the above as standard game mechanics. Many Many Many Many of them

 

[Pyrobee]

Why then are Frontier considering a karma system to discourage particular player / player interactions then, if they are not in some way concerned about the population of Open?

Sandro started talking about enhanced consequences for attacking clean players over a year ago - it would seem that they have been a mite concerned for some time now....

Karma will be to prevent seal clubing Eravate, it won't stop me taking out a trade cutter if I'm blockading an Imperial CG in my FAS. Sure C&P will give me a bounty but I'll be able to survive tjhe timer on it because I'll just jump in my cobra and anybody with a ship fast enough to keep up is welcome to have an attempt at getting the bounty.

 

[flyauburn41]

I think if you want people to actually listen to your opinions then you need to stop coming over as a shouty ranty opinionated mad bloke.

Because right now I pretty much dismiss your posts unread.

Think about that.

Grey, I know for a 100% fact that Powder skims your whiteknighting, Lols and moves on.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Grey, I know for a 100% fact that Powder skims your whiteknighting, Lols and moves on.

Ah, bless.

Shame he can't come up with an argument that doesn't boil down to "if you don't play it my way then you're wrong". Still, never mind, eh?

 

[sovapid]

I still can't wrap my head around why everything is focused on "punishment" for the pirate and nothing on "incentivizing" the trader.

 

[flyauburn41]

Ah, bless.

Shame he can't come up with an argument that doesn't boil down to "if you don't play it my way then you're wrong". Still, never mind, eh?

Actually he's never said that, quite the opposite. However most of the white knights on this forum do exactly that on a regular basis.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander sovapid!

We don't want to punish pirates. And when we think about piracy, we are thinking about the victim as well. It's just that say, improved collection methods and better rewards for piracy are things we're fairly confident talking about as improvements for pirates. The stuff we're internally discussing for potential victims of piracy is not, yet.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Actually he's never said that, quite the opposite. However most of the white knights on this forum do exactly that on a regular basis.

...says someone who is, in effect, white knighting for him.

Ironic.

anyway, away with you. I'll speak to the organ grinder, not the monkey.

 

[DaveB]

Loads of other companies.. Really?

<snip>

The differences between the base gameplay design of ED and other games is irrelevant, and the worst kind of strawman.

FD can still put whatever rules in place they want and enforce them however they want whether that's in a way that you think is lore compliant or not. They've actually gone much further than most other game companies in trying to find ways to influence our gameplay choices in an in-game internally-consistent way but that places no obligation on them to keep doing that. That's the facts. You can express your opinion that this is not a good thing all you want but ultimately ED, like every other piece of software that relies on services provided by its publisher, is subject to the whims of that publisher in how you're allowed to use it. You can also refuse to believe you'll fall if you close your eyes and step off your roof, but gravity doesn't care.

 

[Riverside]

I still can't wrap my head around why everything is focused on "punishment" for the pirate and nothing on "incentivizing" the trader.

Over the last few pages I agree. The idea is to separate 'true' piracy from ganking. If anything piracy as a career is being bigged up. I think there are a number of hangups over jobs gone bad, where they are frustrated by their inability to control their victim by intimidation, when persuasion generally seems to be the optimal approach.

 

[sovapid]

Hello Commander sovapid!

We don't want to punish pirates. And when we think about piracy, we are thinking about the victim as well. It's just that say, improved collection methods and better rewards for piracy are things we're fairly confident talking about as improvements for pirates. The stuff we're internally discussing for potential victims of piracy is not, yet.

Good and thank you.

I said in another thread. I don't really care that much what happens to the other player if I end up on the rebuy screen. I care about me.

If any of C&P is about trying to get people to play in open, I really think you should look at the incentive side (and not just in a piracy situation).

I am not a murder hobo, but don't really have a problem with them. You give people guns in a video game, they are going to shoot other players.

 

[Bigskill]

Hello Commander



I respectfully disagree with you. We want to design a karma system that adds more appropriate consequences for certain actions between human players via in-game, in-lore functionality.

So to us karma, crime and punishment are related, specifically when it comes to ships destruction because of ramming at starports, or murder crimes where the disparity between player skill/stats, ship power is extreme.

The reason combat logging is also bundled in because a karma system is likely the best way to detect it, and if in-game consequences make folk less likely to combat log, then it's probably a win all way round.

As I have stated multiple times: karma is not the one fix solution to all player versus player issues, and it's not meant to prevent (it actually doesn't in any way prevent) players from taking actions that might be unpleasant or undesirable to others. It simply tries to apply reasonable and contextual consequences to those actions. If anything, it's a risk to reward rebalance for those actions, which currently feels out of kilter.

Of course, it's going to be an ongoing challenge, so we'll see how it develops.

Sandro, The point is that when you talk about disparity of ship, you talk about an unbalanced system that you guys created with engineers. Many people believe and I agree that pvp and fight was way better before engineers, a new player now will find a wall of grind in front of him, a random wall. If the player is not dedicated will give up in prob a month. The only people happy are people that play in mobius or explore in solo. Engineers under my honest opinion need to be removed or at least improved with a slider option, so that hours of grind will result in a desired module. At the same time Iook forward to hear what you guys will plan for after 2.4 rebalance, what revamp and what changes are we going to expect for the core game. Last thing, I believe you guys at FD need to listen more at Open play groups, also play with them to realize what need to be fixed and how.
Cheers.

 

[fandango]

So, I thought I'd try the CG in Open tonight.

Immediately after leaving Rakapila station, ganked (interdiction, no comms, by Engineered-up-the-wazoo FDL).

Okay, fair enough. Rebuy.

Leave station again. Ganked (interdiction, no comms, by Engineered-up-the-wazoo Gunship)

Rebuy cost now higher than potential CG reward.

Question for game developers, why _would_ a player (trader or legit pirate) choose this game mode? I mean, I could make a $ killing in Solo, ever-spawning 100k pirates and no one to take it but me. Something is fundamentally wrong. And I don't really think your karma system is going to fix it.

I mean, no deal to me, I just go Mobius again. But I feel sad your 'vision' for this game is not what you had intended.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sandro, The point is that when you talk about disparity of ship, you talk about an unbalanced system that you guys created with engineers.

The large disparity between combat ships and trading ships existed before Engineers (although Engineers widened the gulf) - it was not "balanced" before Engineers.