Karma vs PvP Piracy

[sovapid]

So, I thought I'd try the CG in Open tonight.

Immediately after leaving Rakapila station, ganked (interdiction, no comms, by Engineered-up-the-wazoo FDL).

Okay, fair enough. Rebuy.

Leave station again. Ganked (interdiction, no comms, by Engineered-up-the-wazoo Gunship)

Rebuy cost now higher than potential CG reward.

Question for game developers, why _would_ a player (trader or legit pirate) choose this game mode? I mean, I could make a $ killing in Solo, ever-spawning 100k pirates and no one to take it but me. Something is fundamentally wrong. And I don't really think your karma system is going to fix it.

I mean, no deal to me, I just go Mobius again. But I feel sad your 'vision' for this game is not what you had intended.

What type of ship and load out did you have?

I've done several cargo CG's delivery cargo and didn't come close to dying. But it is in a moderately engineered Type-7 with a load out designed to survive going to an open CG.

To get that fully engineered FDL or Gunship, the person had to suffer through the engineering grind so I guess traders have to go through that grind to survive too? [smile]

Saying that, it is definitely survivable, but you are foolish to do it in open if you are trying to maximize credits or standing in the CG. The only reason to do trading to a CG in open is the challenge of surviving. All the game mechanics push you to do it in solo or private.

 

[Pyrobee]

The large disparity between combat ships and trading ships existed before Engineers (although Engineers widened the gulf) - it was not "balanced" before Engineers.

Engineers balanced the gulf between traders and combat ships. Most traders just can't see past their credit per hour and won't adopt basic evasion skills let alone waste their time engineering a trade ship that can blockade run.
FDev have given traders the chance to engineer ships to defend against engineered PvP ships, trouble is most traders couldn't be bothered and just want eurotruck simulator in space.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Engineers balanced the gulf between traders and combat ships. Most traders just can't see past their credit per hour and won't adopt basic evasion skills let alone waste their time engineering a trade ship that can blockade run.
FDev have given traders the chance to engineer ships to defend against engineered PvP ships, trouble is most traders couldn't be bothered and just want eurotruck simulator in space.

Could you back that up with some example builds?

 

[Riverside]

FDev have given traders the chance to engineer ships to defend against engineered PvP ships, trouble is most traders couldn't be bothered and just want eurotruck simulator in space.

I'll just counterpoint this:

FDev have given Pirates the chance to improve their social skills & Bounty Hunters the chance to police gankers out of the game but most couldn't be bothered and just want pew pew.

That's effectively what you just said.

Could you back that up with some example builds?

I have a T9 that carries 8t of cargo. It's unstoppable. I have a Cobra that carries 16t & is uncatcheable, and a Cutter that carries I can't even remember how much & it's un-masslockable.

It can be done.

 

[Pyrobee]

Could you back that up with some example builds?

With concepts on how build a trade ship yes. Have a cutter for CG milking but hte basics are the same for any trade ship. Best drives you can G5DD if you can but am running G3 DD on my cutter and don't have to high wake most of the time. You need to get Liz unlocked and get mines with shift lock and ion disruptor effects and add heavy to your hull, doesn't give you a weight increase with the basic hull but helps. Get yourself some prismatic sheilds and as for utilities point deffense and sheild boosters all the way, chaf only on a T-6, rest are too big for it do jack.

 

[Mohrgan]

The fact that some players just want to "Truck" should just be accepted. There shouldn't be any issue with that. No one troubles the guy with a tiny FSD, because he wants more pew pew. It's just this attitude, 'shieldless traders need to be punished", that causes all of the trouble. No one has to live up to your (the general your) expectations. That is exactly where the trouble arises. If you only cared about what you're doing, what other's are doing won't affect you'

 

[Zambrick]

While an obvious troll post is obvious.

PVP pirates are not worried about a working Crime and Punishment system, in fact we would welcome some additional challenge.

What this Karma device is setting up to be is if you play in a way that daddy FDEV doesn't like, then FDEV will punish you or add in arbitrary fines, restictions to Open etc

This isn't crime and punishment, this is hand of god changes to a game that already has a ridiculous number of days to NOT get killed by another player.

Its not going to work in the way FDEV intend but it might screw up further, some of the career rolls.

Is this game solely about surviving the longest without getting killed by a player? Is their a leader board or reward system in place for killing a player who has not been killed by another player in a long time? Or perhaps is your very narrow laser focus on PVP in a game not designed around 100% PVP combat at all times the issue? Your all or nothing approach to what you think this game is about is your problem and your problem alone. You can keep your narrow views of a game that offers this much content. I still cant believe this is an issue after this long of a time.

If PVP was actually removed from this game this moment, then we would lose an infinitesimal amount of players from the community. You should be thankful they are still trying to find a way to make PVP viable instead of winging every 5 seconds.

 

[sovapid]

Could you back that up with some example builds?

This is my Type 7 for open CG trading: https://eddp.co/u/Paqg9CdU

We can meet up to see if you can kill me.


EDIT: Oh, and if I am feeling cheeky I put mine launchers on it that either reboot thrusters or damage shields, but almost no one hits mines. So it is kinda of a waste. But does make it a little more fun. Only landed a couple hits though.

 

[Pyrobee]

The fact that some players just want to "Truck" should just be accepted. There shouldn't be any issue with that. No one troubles the guy with a tiny FSD, because he wants more pew pew. It's just this attitude, 'shieldless traders need to be punished", that causes all of the trouble. No one has to live up to your (the general your) expectations. That is exactly where the trouble arises. If you only cared about what you're doing, what other's are doing won't affect you'

If a shieldless trader is in open they deserve a Darwin award. We have solo and mobius for that. But the whole argument that PvP is one sided to a combat ship is bull, all the tools are there in game to engineer trade ships. They just don't want to do it but whine about PvP while playing in solo/PG ignoring the fact there are others who are happy to use the tools FD gave us a deffensive tools from ganks while trading in open.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

Engineers balanced the gulf between traders and combat ships. Most traders just can't see past their credit per hour and won't adopt basic evasion skills let alone waste their time engineering a trade ship that can blockade run.
FDev have given traders the chance to engineer ships to defend against engineered PvP ships, trouble is most traders couldn't be bothered and just want eurotruck simulator in space.

i gave up on the post i made. it didnt do that on release - it made any other ship that wasnt top rated unflyable. you had to either disarm and pray if a trader even from npcs ganking, and combat REQUIRED a top A-rated ship to stand the least chance to live long enough to wake. PVP still to this day apparently REQUIRES fully engineered ships from the posts i seen to take part in. a non engineered ship in pvp is just an easy kill regardless of pilot skill. perhaps after the susequent releases it helps traders - all my ships are engineered now maybe thats why i find combat fun again. but then if everyone except new players in sideys are engineered in order to have fun playing makes you wonder what point most combat related mods actually are.

 

[NeilF]

Sandro, The point is that when you talk about disparity of ship, you talk about an unbalanced system that you guys created with engineers. Many people believe and I agree that pvp and fight was way better before engineers, a new player now will find a wall of grind in front of him, a random wall. If the player is not dedicated will give up in prob a month. The only people happy are people that play in mobius or explore in solo. Engineers under my honest opinion need to be removed or at least improved with a slider option, so that hours of grind will result in a desired module. At the same time Iook forward to hear what you guys will plan for after 2.4 rebalance, what revamp and what changes are we going to expect for the core game. Last thing, I believe you guys at FD need to listen more at Open play groups, also play with them to realize what need to be fixed and how.
Cheers.

It's not just the tools though, its the intent and outcome though...

What gameplay benefit is there in letting combat ships mow down non-combat ships for no in game outcome/purpose. eg: Pick the exploration location of the moment (eg: current Thargoid bases) and you'll regularly find a camp of griefers there simply destroying any/all exploration ships turning up. All ignored by the Pilots Federation with their supposed high expectation of conduct, and insurance companies who seemingly will happily pay out bill after bill after bill caused (illegally) by the same CMDRs over and over?

The engineers just made this toxic element of the game even worse, but it was there before.

ps: I too think the Engineers really did the game no favours. If at the very least all combat orientated upgrades were scaled down, and side effects were removed, that would help!

 

[flyauburn41]

If a shieldless trader is in open they deserve a Darwin award. We have solo and mobius for that. But the whole argument that PvP is one sided to a combat ship is bull, all the tools are there in game to engineer trade ships. They just don't want to do it but whine about PvP while playing in solo/PG ignoring the fact there are others who are happy to use the tools FD gave us a deffensive tools from ganks while trading in open.

This.

I cant tell you how many times I've seen "are those ENGINEERED WEAPONS?!" typed while an incredulous victim's hull rapidly depletes to Zero and BOOM.

What they are really saying is ,"wait you mean I was actually expected to do something different (engineering) in the game for 5 minutes (lol don't we wish), other than space truck, to make my ship defensible, and since I didn't and think my D rated ASP is unstoppable as I try to boost away in a straight line at 285 and Low Wake from an Engineered Cutter doing 460, while saying something I think is clever like "not today mal adjusted baby killer IRL!" I am now learning otherwise and paying the price and that's not fair!! Waaaahhh!!!"

 

[NeilF]

Engineers balanced the gulf between traders and combat ships. Most traders just can't see past their credit per hour and won't adopt basic evasion skills let alone waste their time engineering a trade ship that can blockade run.
FDev have given traders the chance to engineer ships to defend against engineered PvP ships, trouble is most traders couldn't be bothered and just want eurotruck simulator in space.

Where in your statement is there the slightest sentiment of piracy?

You do realise the idea isn't for PvP'er to blow up traders? The idea is to pirate them?

Unfortunately the game does little/nothing to promote this approach, but hopefully the C&P (karma) mechanic, along with improvements to Piracy will...

This.

I cant tell you how many times I've seen "are those ENGINEERED WEAPONS?!" typed while an incredulous victim's hull rapidly depletes to Zero and BOOM.

What they are really saying is ,"wait you mean I was actually expected to do something different (engineering) in the game for 5 minutes (lol don't we wish), other than space truck, to make my ship defensible, and since I didn't and think my D rated ASP is unstoppable as I try to boost away in a straight line at 285 and Low Wake from an Engineered Cutter doing 460 I am now learning otherwise and paying the price and that's not fair!! Waaaahhh!!!"

It seems the C&P (karma) mechanic can't come quick enough!

 

[Riverside]

This.

I cant tell you how many times I've seen "are those ENGINEERED WEAPONS?!" typed while an incredulous victim's hull rapidly depletes to Zero and BOOM.

What they are really saying is ,"wait you mean I was actually expected to do something different (engineering) in the game for 5 minutes (lol don't we wish), other than space truck, to make my ship defensible, and since I didn't and think my D rated ASP is unstoppable as I try to boost away in a straight line at 285 and Low Wake from an Engineered Cutter doing 460 I am now learning otherwise and paying the price and that's not fair!! Waaaahhh!!!"

Maybe find a more interesting target? If you're rocking around in a G5 ship interdicting the shieldless guy I think you're playing the game on easy mode. I can only imagine how shallow that gameplay that must be.

 

[Pyrobee]

i gave up on the post i made. it didnt do that on release - it made any other ship that wasnt top rated unflyable. you had to either disarm and pray if a trader even from npcs ganking, and combat REQUIRED a top A-rated ship to stand the least chance to live long enough to wake. PVP still to this day apparently REQUIRES fully engineered ships from the posts i seen to take part in. a non engineered ship in pvp is just an easy kill regardless of pilot skill. perhaps after the susequent releases it helps traders - all my ships are engineered now maybe thats why i find combat fun again. but then if everyone except new players in sideys are engineered in order to have fun playing makes you wonder what point most combat related mods actually are.

Take it was 2.1 when you fled from the bubble, AI has been nerfed back to incompetant and they don't have engineered weapons anymore. Commodities aren't a thing either, yes we still need materials but most of them are picked up easily unless it's for some of the more popular G5 mod.

 

[Mohrgan]

If a shieldless trader is in open they deserve a Darwin award. We have solo and mobius for that. But the whole argument that PvP is one sided to a combat ship is bull, all the tools are there in game to engineer trade ships. They just don't want to do it but whine about PvP while playing in solo/PG ignoring the fact there are others who are happy to use the tools FD gave us a deffensive tools from ganks while trading in open.

So what? Combat focused players could engineer their FDS to better suit them, they just decide to do something different. I thought open was safe? Why should a shieldless trader be a target, just because they have under powered or no shield? They may be a nice target for piracy, but shields don;t factor into that much if the guy makes a runner.

It's the blind animosity displayed at those that don't build for combat that's the trouble here. Mobius, Solo, or open have what ever purpose an individual player deems. There is no top down rules that require a player to do what you say. The only thing is, you have to accept what you find there. I'll stand behind that. But nothing more.

The whining stems from those that come to the forums to complain how others play. PvE or PvP. FD gave me the most effective tool to neutralize your build, PG's. Once the PvP'ers are finished with telling people how to play in open, they move onto reminding those in Solo or PG's that they are hiding from them. Or that they are disturbing open's intentions for the BGS. No one has to live up to what other players do. Period.

 

[Pyrobee]

Where in your statement is there the slightest sentiment of piracy?

You do realise the idea isn't for PvP'er to blow up traders? The idea is to pirate them?

Unfortunately the game does little/nothing to promote this approach, but hopefully the C&P (karma) mechanic, along with improvements to Piracy will...



It seems the C&P (karma) mechanic can't come quick enough!

But an Imperial player blockading a Fed CG is all about the kills and karma or C&P isn't going to stop that kind of game play. The more PvEers that convince themselves of that the more you are going to be disapointed with what comes. Yes karma will stop seal clubing but it won't punish a wing of vipers taking out a T-9.

 

[Bigskill]

It's not just the tools though, its the intent and outcome though...

What gameplay benefit is there in letting combat ships mow down non-combat ships for no in game outcome/purpose. eg: Pick the exploration location of the moment (eg: current Thargoid bases) and you'll regularly find a camp of griefers there simply destroying any/all exploration ships turning up. All ignored by the Pilots Federation with their supposed high expectation of conduct, and insurance companies who seemingly will happily pay out bill after bill after bill caused (illegally) by the same CMDRs over and over?

The engineers just made this toxic element of the game even worse, but it was there before.

ps: I too think the Engineers really did the game no favours. If at the very least all combat orientated upgrades were scaled down, and side effects were removed, that would help!

I understand what you mean, but a solution could be to give protection to traders by wings, but peer to peer and limited istance are the problem, also with no trade poasoble within players also reward them is a problem. This game ia fantastic but the bad road FD took after engineers make me feel they dont care to improve the game. Some game design leave you shocked. I know this is not supposed to be eve online but there are series of dynamics to really consider at this point. Karma need to be think and developped very accurately cannot just be thrown there without listening major pvp groups, pirates groups and pvers.

 

[Mohrgan]

But an Imperial player blockading a Fed CG is all about the kills and karma or C&P isn't going to stop that kind of game play. The more PvEers that convince themselves of that the more you are going to be disapointed with what comes. Yes karma will stop seal clubing but it won't punish a wing of vipers taking out a T-9.

But, those in the Viper wing may have to face the effects of Karma based on that activity. Blowing up clean ships, for piracy, or otherwise should lower your karmic standing. You could see people flying around in paper thin ships just hoping to get dusted and affect your karma. It would be a great bit of comedic irony if gankers have to avoid weak ships because they pop too easily.

 

[Bigskill]

But, those in the Viper wing may have to face the effects of Karma based on that activity. Blowing up clean ships, for piracy, or otherwise should lower your karmic standing. You could see people flying around in paper thin ships just hoping to get dusted and affect your karma. It would be a great bit of comedic irony if gankers have to avoid weak ships because they pop too easily.

People have to underatand that playing in open is dangerous, before to face it better have an engineered viper, tgat can outrun easily a ganks squad if used right. Unfortunately engineers created this gap from vanilla players and veterans that is a shame.