NPC Wingmen (Sandro)

[eqinox]

Heck, I'd mainly like to have NPC wings in missions if nothing else; assassinate a pirate lord with a group of NPCs, escort/protect/attack a convoy, raid a planetary base, or smuggle some to a ship in space. Don't need to hire a NPC wing to accompany me when I'm wandering around space.

Balance issues in open? That ship sailed long ago with engineers

 

[askavir]

Its probably worth pointing out and some people here with Virtual Squadron avatars should also know better, it took over 12 years to develop a stable functioning version of AI wingmen operating in Falcon4's dynamic campaign environment. So its not the triviality people think it is.

Wing Commander has functional wing-mates which you could communicate with via text messages to set their tactics... This was 26 years ago on a Commodore Amiga in a game which fitted in 3 880kb floppy disks...

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Wing Commander has functional wing-mates which you could communicate with via text messages to set their tactics... This was 26 years ago on a Commodore Amiga in a game which fitted in 3 880kb floppy disks...

I didn't say FD couldn't do it, but its not going to be 5 lines of code trust me. Or do you believe that because somebody coded a feature in one game or engine, that somehow that code is magically transmitted to every other developer for a copy and paste into their own title? If that's the case can you tell me where I subscribe to get that feed?

 

[Urbanski101]

I didn't say FD couldn't do it, but its not going to be 5 lines of code trust me. Or do you believe that because somebody coded a feature in one game or engine, that somehow that code is magically transmitted to every other developer for a copy and paste into their own title? If that's the case can you tell me where I subscribe to get that feed?

NPC wings are already in the game, we just can't join the wing. There are also SLFs that act similar to a wingmate.

Basic crew / SLF fighter commands are already in the game.

Wing functionality is already in the game.

There is even a tutorial in the game where you are part of an NPC wing.

Persistance issues can and have been overcome before, or to start they could limit wings to being only available on certain missions.

So which part of this is the issue.

 

[askavir]

I didn't say FD couldn't do it, but its not going to be 5 lines of code trust me. Or do you believe that because somebody coded a feature in one game or engine, that somehow that code is magically transmitted to every other developer for a copy and paste into their own title? If that's the case can you tell me where I subscribe to get that feed?

I never said it was 5 lines of code.

But if people could do it a quarter of a century ago, with far more severe tech limitations than today, then its not really some kind of ground breaking tech challenge to do it today.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

NPC wings are already in the game, we just can't join the wing. There are also SLFs that act similar to a wingmate.

Basic crew / SLF fighter commands are already in the game.

Wing functionality is already in the game.

There is even a tutorial in the game where you are part of an NPC wing.

Persistance issues can and have been overcome before, or to start they could limit wings to being only available on certain missions.

So which part of this is the issue.

No issues from a technical feasibility perspective, but there is a laundry list of features to develop. I can think of the following off the top of my head:

UI functionality to hire and fire
Coding to tie NPCs into the mission system
Mission difficulty changes dependant on whether you have wingmen or not
Additional voice comms
Additional AI functions for NPC behaviour dependant on what you commend them to do - there were dozens of options available in Falcon4
Engage and disengage AI functionality - you wouldn't want the usual forum reaction when your wing-men don't disengage and end up fried would you?
Entity ownership during multiplayer engagements and transferal if needed if there is a single owner in an island that isn't the controlling player
Persistence between star systems, supercruise and islands
Beacon functionality to do with the above
Many other bits I haven't thought of...

Issues would therefore be time and resources being finite and code and assets not magically springing into existence, no matter how hard we wish it to be, or whether someone has done it before. Sandro has given a response that they see issues with game balance and that is also a consideration before you even commit to the the items above. This is why "the other game" is in the state it is in. I think there is a film quote that goes along the lines of "just because we can do something, doesn't mean that we necessarily should"...

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

I never said it was 5 lines of code.

But if people could do it a quarter of a century ago, with far more severe tech limitations than today, then its not really some kind of ground breaking tech challenge to do it today.

It depends - a lot of people think AI = visual dogfighting, but with Elite Dangerous' galaxy and background sim complexity, having believable persistent AI wingmen that act in a credible fashion, especially in the multiplayer environment, it would be. Wing Commander was a bunch of strung together levels, more akin to CoD than anything else, in fact Chris Roberts almost invented the "interactive cinematic genre" and AI in limited play environments is somewhat easier than those where you have complete freedom to behave in a manner which the AI coding might not have anticipated, for which the likely outcome is a game crash - that's ground breaking in another way

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Hello Commander Lobstris!

Fundamentally, if we simply allowed NPC wingmen without restraint, it might very well make the situation worse *and* make having wingmen more mandatory, which is not something we really want.

I'm not saying we've dropped the idea, just that it has a lot of ramifications that we don't want to take lightly.

The only ramification is that more people will play the game as there is more content. And NPC wing men is fun. Its a good choice for those that play solo. And if you make the NPC wingmen persistent it will be even better. They evolve, demand higher wages, get better as they progress in rank, buy new ships, can demand a new ship, can be dressed up with micro transactions and if they die they are dead. So its a chance to get attached to them and a risk using them. It will all be worth it. Thats what I call game play, creativity and fun. Although I stopped playing altogether 3 months ago. I dont know what happened, so dont listen to me

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Hmm... How about we set up a rule list to see what others think?

I'll start!

• 1 NPC Wingman per CMDR.
• Can be mixed with NPC crew.
• Can NOT be mixed with CMDR wings.
• Can NOT be mixed with Multicrew.
• Wingmen Have Ethical Codes and could have Major Faction/PowerPlay loyalties. Pirate Wingmen are rare, and always Wanted, and will attract NPC bounty hunters and security. Clean Wingmen are common, but won't attack clean ships, will KWS in anarchy, no bounties found, no kill.
• Wingman are lost on ship destruction, but will attempt to flee if heavily damaged.
• CMDR probably needs to pay *something* when wingman dies. Otherwise you'd kill them at the end of their shift to avoid paying them. Lol
• NPC Wingmen come with a ship, not one of yours. More money they earn, the better they, and their ship becomes.

Thoughts?

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Good points. Although I would say 5 wingmen is the limit. To give the wingman option an even bigger spin, make it so if their ship blows up and their escape capsule survives and its captured. Then the commander which captured this wingman can ask for ransome and barter with the "owner" to sell it back. It creates attachment, diversity and creativity. Man the game is already unbalanced with engineers, wings and ship launched fighters. BTW the world aint balanced, if a F-16 hits a Mig with an AMRAM, it goes down. NPC wingmen will enhance the game and in my eyes "create" balance.

 

[W4rSkuLL]

+1

Also, it would make you feel more like you're interacting with the galaxy. As it is, there is very little interaction with NPCs which is unusual for any game.

Imagine getting attached to your wingman pilot. The two of you have survived many adventures these past few months. Then one day....Noooooooo! It would really hurt to lose your wingman buddy.

Exactly. I played ARK with the same base for over 10 months. Although in the end it got to big for 2 men. But it was fun to see the base grow, and develope. To tame the dinosaurs and to well see it evolve. In the end I wnet on summer holiday when I got back it was plundered. Then ARK was well over. To much grinding. Although when I was in my creative moods I could sit for 8 hours straight playing ARK. Building fences, traps, and just developing the base. To see something evolve in a game is the best there is. NPC crew and wingmen will make this game better.

 

[Fosdyke]

Adding NPC Crew and wingmen will be a great addition to the game and a deeper layer of variety in the gameplay. SLF crew pilots are in game yet so as a part of QOL core improvements FD must implement them too. It will extend missions beyond a new level of richness with all the details described above by all our fellow commanders

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I do not understand why FD keeps digging and refuses to give this space sim some half-decent NPCs ...

Honestly, what's wrong with you people ? No hostiles SRVs, no npc wings, no npc multicrew ? Really !?

NPCs existed in video games from almost the very beginning for .... a good reason you know. All you have to justify this terrible choice is a so-called "unbalance" ? Are you for real ?

Like players wings are "balanced" ? Like multi-crew is "balanced" ? Like the whole E : D game is "balanced" for that matter ?
This is beyond ridiculous TBH, this is pure game design sabotage, plain and simple.

While I admit that FD made some improvements lately story-wise, this anti-NPC obsession is totally getting old : FD wake up, open your eyes dammit, NPC programming is YOUR JOB.

SJA, please come back, they went crazy *sigh*

Whilst it may not be the tone i would use i agree with the sentiment 100%. MP in ED is great but imo when push comes to shove i think the majority us want npcs. Using balance as a reason makes no sense just keep wings limited to 4 and the haloed MP wings still get their advantage which some seem to think is so important. Hell a single pvp ship would wipe out a wing of 1 pve ship and 3 npc wingmates, let alone a wing of 4 players.

 

[The New Number Two]

In my opinion, don't worry too much about the balance. Engineering already makes many encounters unbalanced, as do ship sizes. In reality being able to hire wings might do a lot to improve the balance, as NPC wings for singular players could even the odds versus player wings to a large degree, or even allow a non-engineered player to effectively stand up to a single engineered player aggressor. I feel like the added gameplay possibilities would outweigh the balance concerns. Traders and Miners could hire guards to protect them. Explorers could hire NPC wingmates to fly with them and (with a little bit of development by Frontier ) even help explorers scan systems quicker by giving NPC wings orders to "go and scan my target". Exploring with a wing of three NPC pilots could be cool honestly, turning a single explorer into a small fleet of explorers working together!!!!

I think it would be a lovely feature personally.

Lots of good ideas in this thread and the quoted post.

I have little to add other than yes- I not only want NPC crew and wingmates, I have to question the wisdom of anyone that doesn't see value in their imminent addition- especially with so much groundwork already in place.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The Forum: We want NPC wingmen
FDev: Yes, we want it too, but we want to make sure we do it right and don't spoil the rest of the game.
The Forum:WANT IT NOW!!!


And people wonder why FDev don't communicate.

 

[LKx]

The Forum: We want NPC wingmen
FDev: Yes, we want it too, but we want to make sure we do it right and don't spoil the rest of the game.
The Forum:WANT IT NOW!!!


And people wonder why FDev don't communicate.

Is this a random rant on a random discussion in a discussion forum?

The discussion at the moment is on:
Fdev: we'd like it too but we're not sure it's a good idea
Forum: It's a good idea/it's not a good idea

 

[Zannry]

If a Corvette can't launch 2 NPC SLF's simultaneously due to balance concerns, the chances of FD allowing a wing of NPC Wingmates are remote.

 

[askavir]

If a Corvette can't launch 2 NPC SLF's simultaneously due to balance concerns, the chances of FD allowing a wing of NPC Wingmates are remote.

But the real question is? What balance? Balance to what? There is no direct competition, no end, no end game, no finish line. Why are we cutting out nice things because of some balance that ends up being pointless?..

And how can there even be concerns of balance after the engineers release?

 

[wrmiller]

But the real question is? What balance? Balance to what?

And how can there be concerns of balance after the engineers release?

Exactly. FD's so-called concern for 'balance' got thrown out the window when they trashed the game with engineers. It's a load of bovine droppings IMO, but after having opened their mouths about balance, they can't just walk that back. Can they?

How about I get NPC crews, wingmen, and 2 SLF launch capability in my vette if I play in Solo only? That will still leave Open all screwed up, but hey, it won't be my fault.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Perhaps a better route to go would be this:

Allow us to hire on NPC wingmen (not going to bother trying to find some PC terminology, deal with it), much like we hire crew, based on their ranking fox a fixed weekly salary - say 10k for a Harmless up to 50k for an Expert. This allows us to use them for a one week period. Their ship, its outfitting, and rebuy costs are on them. They don't take orders, they're hirelings, not crew. They just fly with us. They'll defend the wing if the wing is attacked, join in a fight if we start a fight, and take normal wing shares of bounties earned or trade dividends of trade goods sold, just like normal wingmen would.

If their rebuy is greater than half their earnings (aka we keep getting them killed) they may quit the wing ahead of schedule, no refunds on salaries paid.

That's it - nothing more elaborate. Honestly not that different than simply accepting a random wing invite, or joining a random wing - the other people fly whatever they're flying already.

 

[shadragon]

The Forum: We want NPC wingmen
FDev: Yes, we want it too, but we want to make sure we do it right and don't spoil the rest of the game.
The Forum:WANT IT NOW!!!

And people wonder why FDev don't communicate.

Couldn't be because they get openly mocked for their statements when they do say something, could it?