2.4 Typical weaponry will be useless against Thargoids. Another design flaw?

[Morbad]

It fits well with tropes of sci-fi often with humanity encountering an unknown possibly more advanced species

Mainstream sci-fi tropes are the worst thing about mainstream sci-fi.

I really hope that the new equipment has no engineering available, so the content can be better balanced, and anyone who can't handle it can sit in the bubble and enjoy their human cannon fodder. I'm not getting my hopes up, though.

If the new weapons aren't competitive with engineered CMDR weapons, against other CMDRs, people are absolutely going to take advantage of that.

If I have to carry silver bullets to fight werewolves, I am going to be at an immense disadvantage when I need my tungsten core AP rounds to penetrate the body armor of the humans that are after me.

 

[JonSnowman]

It has nothing to do with "epeen". The fact is, for some of us there is absolutely no satisfaction to be gained from arbitrarily gimping ourselves just to try to find a sense of challenge. This is an old argument that has been made on many game forums over the years.

I agree with Marc, it really is pathetic how some people whine at the slightest hint of challenge provided by the game. I really hope that the new equipment has no engineering available, so the content can be better balanced, and anyone who can't handle it can sit in the bubble and enjoy their human cannon fodder. I'm not getting my hopes up, though.

No one is complaining about the challenge. I don't care if the AI is 10 times harder than it is now. I just don't want to have to grind for a month to get the gun to kill them.

Its really not that hard to understand.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Story-telling designed to instil fear/dread in the face of an overwhelming superior force = design flaw?
Whatchu smoking?

Same thing.

Not necessarily, it's already established in lore that the Thargoids are a serious, serious threat to the galaxy; with technology superior to ours; there's nothing bizarre about an alien species being more advanced than humans.
Most games, due to the hubris of man, like to put humanity on an equal, or better, footing with other alien races. Despite what many like to believe, humanity is not the pinnacle of intellectual thought.
In fact, I'd welcome being the weaker the species in ED - it poses a real threat, it means we have to work together to beat them, and it allows Frontier to introduce a plethora of community building events to push their narrative along.

Is your view, or creative thinking so myopic you can't see the potential here?

Not unless they are so alien as to be surreal. Plenty of that already in ED without having to have everyone go on an adventure to acquire the +3 vorpal limpet of bug smitification.

More advanced is one thing, but requiring weapons whose function is something other than to deliver as much energy as practical to the desired target (which is the ultimate basis for every tool of violence in the history of the universe, as far as we can tell, from the effects of enzymes and antibodies produced by microbes, to claws and fangs, to a sword edge, to a rifle bullet, to a laser or railgun) is going to seem awfully contrived.

 

[relayer]

• PvP only being for the sake of PvP.

This confused me.

 

[Volimar]

Perhaps the Thargoid ships emit a special field or shields that make our weapons much more ineffective. One or more of the deployables could be to interrupt the field/shields so that our weapons are more effective.

 

[Taimaru]

Slightly off-topic but related, if there is a CG to introduce new weaponry that is required to defeat Thargoids, it does raise an interesting couple of questions.

1. Will the people who normally oppose CGs (UA bombing and blockading) do so for the CG, as they will most likely want these weapons?
2. Will the people who want peace with the Thargoids oppose this CG as they may not want people to have these weapons.

 

[CMDR Crumpeteer]

I forgot to add, a casual player (for lack of a better term) telling a good player to "just fly in a sidewinder" is basically the same as a good player telling a casual player to "git gud", the general idea from both sides being "why don't you just adapt instead of trying to ruin the game for me". It's not constructive, please stop it.

If the new weapons aren't competitive with engineered CMDR weapons, against other CMDRs, people are absolutely going to take advantage of that.

If I have to carry silver bullets to fight werewolves, I am going to be at an immense disadvantage when I need my tungsten core AP rounds to penetrate the body armor of the humans that are after me.

This is a valid point, but I don't see why FD can't simply make the new gear almost as good as top engineered gear (say, somewhere between 60-80% as effective as a god roll), vs human ships, so you still have at least some chance against an engineered CMDR. That would also be a nice alternative for people who don't want to put in the time to get decent engineered gear.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Slightly off-topic but related, if there is a CG to introduce new weaponry that is required to defeat Thargoids, it does raise an interesting couple of questions.

1. Will the people who normally oppose CGs (UA bombing and blockading) do so for the CG, as they will most likely want these weapons?
2. Will the people who want peace with the Thargoids oppose this CG as they may not want people to have these weapons.

To the first, those who oppose will likely do it because they get their kicks from killing other players - no other reason.
To the second, gimping humanity's technological progress and potentially putting the whole of the human race at risk of extinction because they want to hold hands, and sing stories around the camp-fire with Thargoids... well, I think we can just ignore them for now, and put them in a softly padded cell later.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Fear not though, whiners, I'm sure that after a month of your moaniny & complaining, FDev will buckle once again & make Thargoids no harder to kill than a Competent NPC.

Wait no, that's too challenging.

 

[Whitehair]

It's often said that this game is a mile wide and inch deep.

Yes it is. Often by people wanting to justify their position with a modicum of credbility, but instead thoughtlessly reach for a cool sounding phrase.

 

[CMDR Crumpeteer]

No one is complaining about the challenge.

You're only fooling yourself, mate. Nobody is currently complaining about the challenge because it's already been neutered to oblivion. It's not just combat, look at how pathetic interdictions are now. It's basically impossible to lose unless you fall asleep waiting for it to end.

 

[Morbad]

Story-telling designed to instil fear/dread in the face of an overwhelming superior force = design flaw?

Not at all and I don't think a single post from anyone in this thread has remotely implied anything of the sort.

It's the likely implementation that I'm not looking forward to.

Not necessarily, it's already established in lore that the Thargoids are a serious, serious threat to the galaxy; with technology superior to ours; there's nothing bizarre about an alien species being more advanced than humans.

Not sure where the disagreement is.

The level of threat isn't the issue (it's going to be too low, no matter what Frontier does...it will have to be to cater to mainstream players and tastes), it's the nature of that threat and how it's depicted that will make or break it as plausible or interesting gameplay.

In fact, I'd welcome being the weaker the species in ED - it poses a real threat, it means we have to work together to beat them, and it allows Frontier to introduce a plethora of community building events to push their narrative along.

Even if I liked their narrative (I'd much rather it be our narrative, personally), I don't think I've seen anything that makes me think the Thargoid threat is going to be depicted in a credible or engaging manner. I'm all for being the underdog (usually am), but the underdog that is also a predesignated survivor is exceedingly cliche. Even more cliche is the invincible-foe-with-an-Achilles-heel trope.

If this turns into a Star Trek Borg, SG-1 Goa'uld/SG-A Wraith, or Star Wars Empire sort of thing, where the foe with all the advantages makes habitual strategic and tactical blunders, while humanity seems predestined to survive via deus ex machina until they can make multiple wild advances that turn the tables, I'm going to be both exceptionally disappointed and entirely unsurprised.

Is your view, or creative thinking so myopic you can't see the potential here?

I see potential that is likely to be squandered.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

You're only fooling yourself, mate. Nobody is currently complaining about the challenge because it's already been neutered to oblivion. It's not just combat, look at how pathetic interdictions are now. It's basically impossible to lose unless you fall asleep waiting for it to end.

Remember when we had super-AI (their combat ability, not their super-weapons)? I do .. I loved it.

People cried because they suddenly realised how much they sucked and refused to get better.
Frontier nerfed it because .. well .. I dunno .. pandering.
I cried. Dozens upon dozens of other CMDR's cried. Sarah Jane Avory cried.

 

[xondk]

Watching over the teaser live stream, some pictures were shown of unknown devices coming in 2.4. Some of them seem to look like deployables rather than weapons and it prompts me with some concerning questions:

Is the 2.4 going to continue the trend of splitting game content? Will it make it easier for PvPers to attack ships equipped for fighting Thargoids? Will it force players to drop every other form of progression purely for the sake of some kind of Thargoid module progress? Deployables sound a bit more interesting because it allows a ship to maintain its previously engineered configuration, but I think it would be a shame if all that work put into engineering them could not be used at all in any way. My hope would be that these deployables put a debuff on the alien ships making engineered weapons useful, and that this update will create new relationships with other mechanics that we already have.

It's often said that this game is a mile wide and inch deep. A major contributor towards this was making progression systems feel like a grind. One way of achieving that was the practice of isolating activities and mechanics from each other so that only one at a time can be played with. Some examples:

• Waiting hours for that one particular kind of signal source when no other form of gameplay fits between, other than maybe courier missions which aren't really activities anyways.
• Grinding for 10k merits for a week to get a 100% bounty bonus for another week, when 2 weeks of bounties without a bonus pay the same. Neither of which contribute towards super faction rep gain.
• Waiting 4 weeks to earn a new weapon, one that's only given through Powerplay. Why?
• PvP only being for the sake of PvP.
• Manual trading, combat zones and mining not providing contribution towards any significant rank gain, engineering progress, and are not profitable without missions that don't add anything extra to the task itself.

I could probably make a fat list on that subject but that isn't the point. It sounds like Frontier is showing interest with revisiting core mechanics after 2.4, but I want to know if they've considered previous design flaws and taken measure to ensure 2.4 makes the game less wide and more deep. I think this is something they should be thinking about with every update they plan in the future.

Live stream reference.
[video]https://www.twitch.tv/videos/154072893?t=07m57s[/url]

Lets see what happens? it isn't out yet, I like the idea, they are vastly different, do note however, nothing has been mentioned about thargoid specific weapons against our ships.
Also add you can't just stop adding new stuff because it might give balance issues, especially with something like PvP in a game that isn't focused around PvP.

 

[Eymerich]

Remember when we had super-AI (their combat ability, not their super-weapons)? I do .. I loved it.

People cried because they suddenly realised how much they sucked and refused to get better.
Frontier nerfed it because .. well .. I dunno .. pandering.
I cried. Dozens upon dozens of other CMDR's cried. Sarah Jane Avory cried.

That's not true

People like me complained because:

1 once the NPC loses its shield you ll have to follie him sometime for over 50 km

2 NPC were Show ing an agility unable to obtain from a player

 

[Morbad]

Remember when we had super-AI (their combat ability, not their super-weapons)? I do .. I loved it.

So far, the vague hints we have is that the Thargoid threat is going be based more around the latter than the former.

That's my main complaint with the statements that prompted the OP's comments. I want my skill to be tested, I want to have to learn new approaches, I want to have to make hard choices...I don't simply want to have to shelve the +7 Hackmaster I got for not puking on all the engineering rides in exchange for the +12 Gronk-slayer I'll get for delivering toasters and nudie magazines to researchers in Maia simply in order to face the same sort of bland NPC encounters we have now, just behind a gear wall.

1 once the NPC loses its shield you ll have to follie him sometime for over 50 km

I've flown much further in active combat if I thought it would be to my tactical advantage.

NPC were Show ing an agility unable to obtain from a player

No they weren't.

Even in 2.1 I never saw an NPC ship do something I couldn't do in the same ship.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Not at all and I don't think a single post from anyone in this thread has remotely implied anything of the sort.

It's the likely implementation that I'm not looking forward to.

Then I misinterpreted your post, because I don't see how a design flaw and a design decision to instill dread in the player base are the same thing.

Not sure where the disagreement is.

The level of threat isn't the issue (it's going to be too low, no matter what Frontier does...it will have to be to cater to mainstream players and tastes), it's the nature of that threat and how it's depicted that will make or break it as plausible or interesting gameplay.

Your response to my post you quoted gave the impression (to me) that it's not plausible for the Thargoid's to be so superior to us that our weapons are nothing short off ineffective against them without it being surreal; I pointed out that they are already superior to us and has been established as such.

Looks like I've just generally misinterpreted, or failed to understand your posts. It's Friday, 8:30am - I'm at work, and the kettle is broken. *sob*

Even if I liked their narrative (I'd much rather it be our narrative, personally), I don't think I've seen anything that makes me think the Thargoid threat is going to be depicted in a credible or engaging manner.

Point. Though to be fair, we haven't had a story from Frontier on this kind of scale; all of it has been small side story's with little to no value. Thargoid's, on the other hand, are on a whole different level. They are the primary antagonists in the Elite universe; I personal hope Braben has some big stuff planned to emphasise their importance.

I'm all for being the underdog (usually am), but the underdog that is also a predesignated survivor is exceedingly cliche. Even more cliche is the invincible-foe-with-an-Achilles-heel trope.

Assuming, of course, we're not forced to abandon the bubble for Colonia in order to survive. *super wishful thinking of an event that will NEVER happen*

If this turns into a Star Trek Borg, SG-1 Goa'uld/SG-A Wraith, or Star Wars Empire sort of thing, where the foe with all the advantages makes habitual strategic and tactical blunders, while humanity seems predestined to survive via deus ex machina until they can make multiple wild advances that turn the tables, I'm going to be both exceptionally disappointed and entirely unsurprised.

Truth be told, I'm hoping it doesn't come to that either.

 

[Gully Foyle]

Redacted due to cruelty.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

That's not true

People like me complained because:

1 once the NPC loses its shield you ll have to follie him sometime for over 50 km

2 NPC were Show ing an agility unable to obtain from a player

Then you're the exception, because during that event, outside of the "super-weapons" bug, the biggest complaint I recall on the forums was that the AI was too hard; and myself and others tried to help people get better with advice, but they'd rather have the AI nerfed, than actually learn to fly better.

And yet, despite this presumed agility, they were still more fun to fight against.
AI will always need a leg up to compete against a human fairly; if they had that extra agility, then I think it contributed to the challenge; but I don't think it was really that, I think SJA genuinely wrote an amazing AI that was challenging, and intelligent.

 

[w3bbo]

Thargoid hunting = optional 'elite DANGEROUS' PVE. Those that wanted the NCP nerf in prior updates and revel in shooting fish in a barrel would do well to stay clear. I personally look forward to seeing how tough the thargoids will be and if I need to grind out new weapons - so be it. Just make damn sure the mats to do so are attainable and not bugged please.