Two extremes of open PvP

[Hellfire85]

I'm not sure where you're coming from. From what I understand of Elite's PvP scene thus far, the "big 3" are outmatched and underpowered against the ongoing FdL / FAS meta. Folks tell me to stay away from PvP in a large ship, because smaller ships will "run circles around me." I'm told that I'll just get decimated by smaller ships if I go and PvP in my Corvette.

Since I don't have much actual experience, I can't say one way or another which side is right.

Yes, the big 3 are currently outmatched by the FDL meta, but same goes for the FDL when facing a better and more experienced pilot in a small ship (FDL is a medium ship iirc)

But the biggest part of this community or at least the part that doesn't give a damn about advices from combat pilots or don't understand anything about PvP is still thinking that way.

That's how PvP pilots get flagged as cheaters, or combat-logging happens from side of the victim and why they start avoiding Open.

If most of the people grinding for the big 3 for survival reasons (cuz "I need to get a ship to survive in open" and then "Meh... grinding to have a chance in open...blablah...") started to learn combat maneuvers instead of trying to get rich as fast as possible, there would be so much less complaining about Open.

 

[MJC]

hmm, can't you synthesise missile ammo too?
and as experienced missile user - can you tell if wide angle sensors affect missile lock?

You are right - you can synth missiles. But I am not really an experienced missile user. Railguns and enforcer cannons are my thing. The missiles I have on this loadout I just recently engineered to try out, to quickly get the drives of opponents running away when their shields pop. Now I have spoken to a friend who is experienced with missiles and he is unsure if wide angle changes anything as hes never had one. He assured me D vs A rated is for range only and had no effect on the lock. Would be interesting to test the wide angle.

Yes, the big 3 are currently outmatched by the FDL meta, but same goes for the FDL when facing a better and more experienced pilot in a small ship (FDL is a medium ship iirc)
But the biggest part of this community or at least the part that doesn't give a damn about advices from combat pilots or don't understand anything about PvP is still thinking that way.

That's how PvP pilots get flagged as cheaters, or combat-logging happens from side of the victim and why they start avoiding Open.

If most of the people grinding for the big 3 for survival reasons (cuz "I need to get a ship to survive in open" and then "Meh... grinding to have a chance in open...blablah...") started to learn combat maneuvers instead of trying to get rich as fast as possible, there would be so much less complaining about Open.

Part of the reason I'm doing this is because I feel there is a lack of training/mentoring opportunities for new players to learn PvP. I have in my 3 years playing ED trained some excellent PvP-ers in my own guild (BIG). Some of them I trained from complete begginers to taking part in two seasons of PvP league and securing a top4 ranking. It is amazing how quickly people learn once there is someone to show them and dedicate time. Yes some are more talented than others but once explained the basics the PvP bug takes hold and you see them evening after evening in CG's having duels and getting better. But that initial person is not easy to find.

Perhaps this is beacuse of the "superiority complex" exhibited by some in the PvP community which puts people off. The same people who were involved in the latest (and the worst) exploiting with modules. They even chose to defend this just like parts of pve community defend combat logging. Both of these are the opposite extremes of this community and I dont approve of either.

So for my part, I am trying to teach new Cmdr's a few tricks and spark that love for PvP. If we all select one apprentice each in a few months we would have lots more PvP'ers, traders and pirates in open. So go out there find a padawan and make him a Jedi. Trust me its the best feeling in the world

P.S. Thanks everyone for taking part in this discussion, it has been most enjoyable. o7

 

[Tarman]

You are right - you can synth missiles. But I am not really an experienced missile user. Railguns and enforcer cannons are my thing. The missiles I have on this loadout I just recently engineered to try out, to quickly get the drives of opponents running away when their shields pop. Now I have spoken to a friend who is experienced with missiles and he is unsure if wide angle changes anything as hes never had one. He assured me D vs A rated is for range only and had no effect on the lock. Would be interesting to test the wide angle.



Part of the reason I'm doing this is because I feel there is a lack of training/mentoring opportunities for new players to learn PvP. I have in my 3 years playing ED trained some excellent PvP-ers in my own guild (BIG). Some of them I trained from complete begginers to taking part in two seasons of PvP league and securing a top4 ranking. It is amazing how quickly people learn once there is someone to show them and dedicate time. Yes some are more talented than others but once explained the basics the PvP bug takes hold and you see them evening after evening in CG's having duels and getting better. But that initial person is not easy to find.

Perhaps this is beacuse of the "superiority complex" exhibited by some in the PvP community which puts people off. The same people who were involved in the latest (and the worst) exploiting with modules. They even chose to defend this just like parts of pve community defend combat logging. Both of these are the opposite extremes of this community and I dont approve of either.

So for my part, I am trying to teach new Cmdr's a few tricks and spark that love for PvP. If we all select one apprentice each in a few months we would have lots more PvP'ers, traders and pirates in open. So go out there find a padawan and make him a Jedi. Trust me its the best feeling in the world

P.S. Thanks everyone for taking part in this discussion, it has been most enjoyable. o7

I hope that pilots like you are going to become the new main face of PVP in this community. I've seen a lot of decent PVP CMDRs on the forums recently, both in skill and attitude at once, and it's really refreshing to see this positivity about fun gaming after the G5 debacle.

This is the kind of PVP community that would interest me in further exploring. Been there done that with the "gitgud" crowds in other games in days past; it's boring as eff, and I have nothing to prove except to myself about how much fun I can have pretending to be a spaceman.

 

[CMDR INFRATEK]

This is why I am marrying a Balkan!!!! Respects MJC, Truly.

 

[SushiCW]

So, for curiosity's sake... how would I fight your silent DBS without a custom-tuned loadout (and probably entirely new ship?)

I fly a Keelback. Fairly well engineered, but with multirole internals and weapons tuned for PvE utility rather than PvP anything. (2 multis, a rail, and seekers. And a MC Condor).

Obviously dodging the torps would help a lot, if I can manage to do so with a slow ship and avoiding complications from network latency. I don't like my odds.

I suspect my best bet is to basically fly in circles and try to dodge as much fire as possible, while letting my SLF whittle away at you. Even that is probably an effective stalemate at best, I doubt I can dodge/tank your guns more effectively than you can dodge/tank SLF fire and the occasional pitiful C1 rail shot. You've probably got the hull reinforcements to just ram me to death as well.

Obviously I could run away at any time, since you aren't rigged for alpha damage, but then again so could you even if I did manage to miraculously avoid your torps and whittle you down first.

By the way, do the torps damage the shield gen even if the shields are down? I'm assuming so, otherwise people would drop shields right before torp impact to avoid their effect.

 

[MJC]

This is why I am marrying a Balkan!!!! Respects MJC, Truly.

Good on you mate. I married one too. She even lets me play ED in evening if I have completed my house chores.

So, for curiosity's sake... how would I fight your silent DBS without a custom-tuned loadout (and probably entirely new ship?)

I fly a Keelback. Fairly well engineered, but with multirole internals and weapons tuned for PvE utility rather than PvP anything. (2 multis, a rail, and seekers. And a MC Condor).

Obviously dodging the torps would help a lot, if I can manage to do so with a slow ship and avoiding complications from network latency. I don't like my odds.

I suspect my best bet is to basically fly in circles and try to dodge as much fire as possible, while letting my SLF whittle away at you. Even that is probably an effective stalemate at best, I doubt I can dodge/tank your guns more effectively than you can dodge/tank SLF fire and the occasional pitiful C1 rail shot. You've probably got the hull reinforcements to just ram me to death as well.

Obviously I could run away at any time, since you aren't rigged for alpha damage, but then again so could you even if I did manage to miraculously avoid your torps and whittle you down first.

By the way, do the torps damage the shield gen even if the shields are down? I'm assuming so, otherwise people would drop shields right before torp impact to avoid their effect.

Ok you first you would need to check my loadout. However as I am running silent (after the interdiction) you may not get the chance before I launch my torpedoes. Anyone you see carrying torpedoes should set the alarm bells ringing (try scanning people in supercruise and be aware who is around). Once torpedoes are launched I may try to mask them with missiles just to confuse your point defence. Torpedoes travel at 250 m/s and are very tough. Point defence will struggle to kill them. Your only option is to boost, boost, boost away at higher speed than 250 m/s. Don't be tempted to turn back and fight me while the little white triangles are on the radar. Wait untill they run out of fuel (2-3 min). Then you can fight.

Another option would be to run a bi-weave hybrid with hull reinforcments. SLF is a pain in the neck, but I would destroy him first, so you may be better off putting some hull reinforcments instead. So that when you shield generator is destroyed you have some hull to compensate and prolong the fight. Military armour is great, although if you are trying to save mass you can put lightweight alloys and engineer them with heavy duty blueprint. Here is the trick. Lightweight alloys weigh 0t so when you mod them heavy duty 5 (+40% mass) it still weighs 0t! Extra protection for no mass penalty.

Finaly on one of your multicannons put emmisive ammo. When you hit me with that my silent running is cancelled and you can see me and shoot me much easier. Corrosive also helps as it increases damage to hull.

Your last question. Torpedoes destroy the shield generator to 0%. Switching off shields doesn not help as the attack is vs the shield generator itself.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

i will try the missiles + wide angle myself. wanted to mod an eagle anyway.

does MJC mean what i think it means? https://youtu.be/KqEmLNEvoOc?t=1m6s

 

[SushiCW]

Ok you first you would need to check my loadout. However as I am running silent (after the interdiction) you may not get the chance before I launch my torpedoes. Anyone you see carrying torpedoes should set the alarm bells ringing (try scanning people in supercruise and be aware who is around). Once torpedoes are launched I may try to mask them with missiles just to confuse your point defence. Torpedoes travel at 250 m/s and are very tough. Point defence will struggle to kill them. Your only option is to boost, boost, boost away at higher speed than 250 m/s. Don't be tempted to turn back and fight me while the little white triangles are on the radar. Wait untill they run out of fuel (2-3 min). Then you can fight.

Another option would be to run a bi-weave hybrid with hull reinforcments. SLF is a pain in the neck, but I would destroy him first, so you may be better off putting some hull reinforcments instead. So that when you shield generator is destroyed you have some hull to compensate and prolong the fight. Military armour is great, although if you are trying to save mass you can put lightweight alloys and engineer them with heavy duty blueprint. Here is the trick. Lightweight alloys weigh 0t so when you mod them heavy duty 5 (+40% mass) it still weighs 0t! Extra protection for no mass penalty.

Finaly on one of your multicannons put emmisive ammo. When you hit me with that my silent running is cancelled and you can see me and shoot me much easier. Corrosive also helps as it increases damage to hull.

Your last question. Torpedoes destroy the shield generator to 0%. Switching off shields doesn not help as the attack is vs the shield generator itself.

Thanks! The torpedo tactics are enlightening, I haven't done a lot of PvP since before they were a common thing. If I run into you I'd be happy to try my luck, but frankly I wouldn't expect much. A dedicated PvP build, flown competently, is basically invincible to a non-PvP build in my experience. My only experience on the *other* side of that equation is pre-engineers, but even then it was hopelessly one-sided and it's only gotten more so. Your builds I could likely fight for a few minutes and escape, even if I was losing, which is a rare treat. The much more common alpha-optimized FDL, on the other hand, has a good shot at destroying me before I can even high-wake. Most ships I see that attack me have at least 10x my shield and 5x my armor, while also having significantly more firepower, speed, and agility. I'd love to stay and fight but it's pointless. Casual PvP is all but dead.

Whoops, forgive that tangential rant. Thanks again for the answers, and if you see me I'd definitely be up for a friendly duel.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Vulture is my inroad into pure space fitan, love that ship. It feels exactly like the kind of heavy-hitting yet fairly maneuverable vehicle I like in combat games. It's like taking an A-10 with F-16 flight characteristics into battle.

Ohhhhh, how I *wanted* that gun soooooo bad, over my crappy M61.

 

[CmdrKafka]

You know I would probably enjoy more PvP action if there was a way for beginners to learn without being destroyed so quickly. It's not that I mind the rebuy on a small ship, but whenever I choose to engage vs. High wake I find that I only last about 30 seconds and I don't really learn anything towards getting good. I've been playing for two years but never really worked on combat (other than fairly easy PvE missions) but I would like to learn. So if you experienced PvPers out there want to give us beginners a sporting chance (with no real danger that you will lose) maybe back off just a little and let us get a few shots in at least before blowing us up... and then we might come back for more. Perhaps one of the groups might even want to run an organized event where new players could be given some advice and training would be a good way to increase the interest in PvP.

 

[=71st=RuSh]

What advantage give to turn the SILENT RUNNING? is not detectable your ship? what when you shoot?

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

What advantage give to turn the SILENT RUNNING? is not detectable your ship? what when you shoot?

silent running reduces the heat sig of your ship - and targeting is based on your heat signature.
so unless you're opponent is to close and has A-Grade long range scanners, he won't be able to target you.

you see what happens when he shoots - he over heats unless he opens the heat vents

 

[SushiCW]

silent running reduces the heat sig of your ship - and targeting is based on your heat signature.
so unless you're opponent is to close and has A-Grade long range scanners, he won't be able to target you.

you see what happens when he shoots - he over heats unless he opens the heat vents

But IIRC even in silent running, if you shoot someone they can target you. (Although gimbals won't work, not sure about missiles).

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

But IIRC even in silent running, if you shoot someone they can target you. (Although gimbals won't work, not sure about missiles).

don't mistake "silent running" with "cool running".

 

[=71st=RuSh]

Thats the things I hate of ED, how far they are from real technology, even in our times we have better sensors than the ED universe!

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

Thats the things I hate of ED, how far they are from real technology, even in our times we have better sensors than the ED universe!

its kinda strange that our SENSORS in ED are heat based, missiles are heat seakers,
but CHAFF is (radar countermeasure), strangely enough working against gimballed weapon systems on ships without radars.

and then there is ECM... that only disables heat seaking missiles for a few seconds.

i came down to the conclusion - its a game...

 

[SushiCW]

don't mistake "silent running" with "cool running".

Does it work differently? I thought the rule was that if you're being actively shot by someone, they'd show up with a white bracket, targetable but without gimbal tracking.

Unfortunately it's been a very long time since I've directly dealt with stealth ships.

 

[MJC]

Most ships I see that attack me have at least 10x my shield and 5x my armor, while also having significantly more firepower, speed, and agility. I'd love to stay and fight but it's pointless. Casual PvP is all but dead.

I see your point and I agree. Engineers have definitely unbalanced PvP. Majority of mainstream PvP-ers fly meta ships. But as an "oldskool" PvP-er I resent conformity and I promote originality. We all need to adapt, but we can choose how. What I would advise you is build a small PvP ship. Eagle or Vulture is a joy to fly. Corier has very strong shields. DBS is cool as ice. Viper is good all rounder. I can give you some loadout ideas (PM me if you preffer). Cheap rebuy. Just transfer it to the CG when you get there with your main ship (It wont cost much) and give it a go. What have you got to loose ?

What advantage give to turn the SILENT RUNNING? is not detectable your ship? what when you shoot?

In silent running you are completely invisible (shimmering square on radar, difficult to trace) untill you start shooting. When you start shooting the opponent and his wing see you as white triangle. They can not shoot missiles at you. If the opponent has emmisive ammo and hits you, you became fully resolved (yellow triangle) then he and his wing can shoot gimbals at you.

But IIRC even in silent running, if you shoot someone they can target you. (Although gimbals won't work, not sure about missiles).

Missiles will not lock onto a silent target. Even if you are white triangle (you shoot back) missiles still cannot lock you. You need to be fully resolved for missiles to lock. Silent running is the antidote for missile runners.

If you want to give silent running a chance go for a ship with high thermal capacity such as DBS.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/286628-Research-Detailed-Heat-Mechanics

For me PvP is as much science and research as it is practice and skill. I can reccommend 2 excellent researchers on this forum:
Cmdr Frenotx https://forums.frontier.co.uk/member.php/54617-Frenotx
Cmdr Truesilver https://forums.frontier.co.uk/member.php/87160-Truesilver

Look at their started threads. You will find lots of high quality information.

 

[MJC]

You know I would probably enjoy more PvP action if there was a way for beginners to learn without being destroyed so quickly. It's not that I mind the rebuy on a small ship, but whenever I choose to engage vs. High wake I find that I only last about 30 seconds and I don't really learn anything towards getting good. I've been playing for two years but never really worked on combat (other than fairly easy PvE missions) but I would like to learn. So if you experienced PvPers out there want to give us beginners a sporting chance (with no real danger that you will lose) maybe back off just a little and let us get a few shots in at least before blowing us up... and then we might come back for more. Perhaps one of the groups might even want to run an organized event where new players could be given some advice and training would be a good way to increase the interest in PvP.

Well I would be happy to organise a training session for you and all the guys who have asked questions on this thread. You will be amazed how much you can learn in a 2-3 hour session.

Please let me know who is interested and what timezone you are. You can PM me if you preffer. Discord or TS communication would be prefferable.

 

[Tarman]

Thats the things I hate of ED, how far they are from real technology, even in our times we have better sensors than the ED universe!

Yep, it's crazy how imaginary tech in a video game over a thousand years into the future after knowledge-decimating AI wars and a galactic human diaspora is different from present-day real technology.



>_________>