Real good stuff here.
Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?
- Thread starter Godsailsaqueen
- Start date
Real good stuff here.
+1 Definitely this ^
Deleted member 38366
D
Hmm...
The Adv. ADS has always bothered me a bit as well, although the lack of viable alternatives right now makes me think it should still retain Infinite Range.
What if :
- classic honking of the Scanner only gave you i.e. an instant xxxxx Ls picture
- the "honk" would propagate through the System at a certain speed of xxxxx Ls / second (merely requiring you remain inside the System for the ADS to "pick up incoming returns")
(lacking a Science Console, a small display in the HUD could display "Gravimetric : xxx%", increasing to 100% when the Omnidirecitonal Scan has detected every Gravimetric Object)
And what if :
- the ADS came with two basic operating modes?
Omnidirectional : as we have now, except with the propagation delay (meaning distant Objects aren't discovered instantly)
Directional : see distant Suns and want to get a much faster Result on their environment? Point at them and fire the ADS in directional Mode for quicker result. A directional Gravimetric Scan straight ahead and a few degrees wide.
How to kow "System ADS-scanned complete" ? Little Blue Message : "100% of Gravity Wells accounted for".
Likely benefit of the Gravimetric approach :
If there's... let's say... "something else" in Deep Space, seeing the Display at 99.99% could be used as a clue -> CMDR, this location might warrant further investigation, there's more to this System than meets the ADS.
The Adv. ADS has always bothered me a bit as well, although the lack of viable alternatives right now makes me think it should still retain Infinite Range.
What if :
- classic honking of the Scanner only gave you i.e. an instant xxxxx Ls picture
- the "honk" would propagate through the System at a certain speed of xxxxx Ls / second (merely requiring you remain inside the System for the ADS to "pick up incoming returns")
(lacking a Science Console, a small display in the HUD could display "Gravimetric : xxx%", increasing to 100% when the Omnidirecitonal Scan has detected every Gravimetric Object)
And what if :
- the ADS came with two basic operating modes?
Omnidirectional : as we have now, except with the propagation delay (meaning distant Objects aren't discovered instantly)
Directional : see distant Suns and want to get a much faster Result on their environment? Point at them and fire the ADS in directional Mode for quicker result. A directional Gravimetric Scan straight ahead and a few degrees wide.
How to kow "System ADS-scanned complete" ? Little Blue Message : "100% of Gravity Wells accounted for".
Likely benefit of the Gravimetric approach :
If there's... let's say... "something else" in Deep Space, seeing the Display at 99.99% could be used as a clue -> CMDR, this location might warrant further investigation, there's more to this System than meets the ADS.
Last edited by a moderator:
ADS infinite range is needed for when you are exploring and theres something like 500k+ away that you wont see otherwise. And I'd rather not miss that.
I kind of enjoyed the probe scanner "minigame" used in EVE Online where you sent out probes that had a certain scan range, then overlapped the scan range of the different probes to get a cross-reference and thus being able to triangulate the position of an object.
Why can't we have a minigame for exploration that uses a similar approach? In order to find objects in space you have to either ping them, rely on radiation signatures and so on.
I'm positive there could be a way to do this featuring a 3D representation of the System Map and the use of directional scanners, probes and so forth.
In order to not miss outlaying celestial objects like that just means you need to spend more time exploring that system.
It would also mean someone could come along long after the first explorer was there and suddenly find that one hidden planet 500k+ away. That in itself would be quite exciting too, to find something new in already explored space.
The infinite honk completely oversimplifies the entire exploration to the point where it's not even exploration anymore. It's just honk, check system map, warp out... honk, check map, warp out... honk, check map... where is the exploration? Far too simplified and honestly smells like a cheap placeholder effect from beta that for some reason wasn't changed and got carried into the released game.
And got pretty deep into the playerbase's habits. I can bet that if it wasn't implemented from the start, there might have been less people asking for it than people wanting to keep it now. But playing guesses in alternate realities won't get us far.
Thank you for posting this here I tried finding it last night.
There are other great examples of ideas scattered round but this one shows in pictures what they are all more or less saying.
I imagined that on entering a system the "honk" would be performed to show the bodies in system in minimal detail...basically just telling you that there is something at various points. Then a series of limpet probes is sent out to each body at multiples of ship max SC speed. This might take some time for each to report back their findings depending on distance from player location. This probe data would be more quite detailed as shown in the pictures above. But if you want to get further definitive detail you need to go into orbit and scan from there using ship sensors.
Yeah this would be slow to fully survey a system but make it worth the time to the player in terms of things to potentially find and payouts back in the bubble etc.
Change the hud, if the planet is landable. No info is given on the hud, you have to look at the system map to see the planet type.
Also is it me or are the planets holo so similar to be confusing, I am sure one blotchy holo can be hmc, rocky world, no real difference between metallic body and hmc.
Why have a ww holo for some hmc?
Elw I have figured out its the one same as others but no island. Such a tease
.
Grrrr
Also is it me or are the planets holo so similar to be confusing, I am sure one blotchy holo can be hmc, rocky world, no real difference between metallic body and hmc.
Why have a ww holo for some hmc?
Elw I have figured out its the one same as others but no island. Such a tease
.
Grrrr
I say keep the ADS as it is, as someone said it's ingrained in the playerbase and quite frankly it's not as though we are short on space to discover things, what we are short of is free time to do so.
Another example, we have optical telescopes that can see to almost the farthest regions of the solar system, why in 3303 do I need to go right next to the planet to see the surface detail?
These don't add skill or gameplay, they simply add... time
So I would suggest the focus is shifted to getting more detail from the planets/stellar bodies themselves using different methods.
For example, having two ways to discover detail on a planet. the normal surface scanner, and firing a probe(which can be synthesised). The probe gives more information(such as any ruins, barnacles, brain trees, vulcanism etc) which the surface scanner does not.
Combining the ADS and DSS into a single module, opening up a slot for smaller ships to explore.
Adding a long range sensor module that gives an estimate of the targeted star systems composition. Basically it replicates what we do now in determining what's in a star system without us needing to go there.
What's needed is a way to increase gameplay and skill without purely increasing time. Game play and skill are fun to learn and master.. Time is far more precious.
Another example, we have optical telescopes that can see to almost the farthest regions of the solar system, why in 3303 do I need to go right next to the planet to see the surface detail?
These don't add skill or gameplay, they simply add... time
So I would suggest the focus is shifted to getting more detail from the planets/stellar bodies themselves using different methods.
For example, having two ways to discover detail on a planet. the normal surface scanner, and firing a probe(which can be synthesised). The probe gives more information(such as any ruins, barnacles, brain trees, vulcanism etc) which the surface scanner does not.
Combining the ADS and DSS into a single module, opening up a slot for smaller ships to explore.
Adding a long range sensor module that gives an estimate of the targeted star systems composition. Basically it replicates what we do now in determining what's in a star system without us needing to go there.
What's needed is a way to increase gameplay and skill without purely increasing time. Game play and skill are fun to learn and master.. Time is far more precious.
There are some benefits to the ADS and DDS fusion - I've read people highlighting interesting points about the actual "size" of such probes/limpets, that could not be converted into a simple ammo as I thought. If a mining prospector is 1 ton, then how about something that moves in supercruise? Same amount at very least.
The ADS and DSS fusion would solve the problem : by freeing one slot, you could fit a tiny cargo rack that would be enough for probing the most interesting planets - and you could synthetize them easily with basic materials.
OP - no. Add stuff, sure. Don't remove stuff that we already have that gives some damn fine convenience.
Imagine having to fly hundreds of thousands of LS to check out a remote binary only to discover absoloutely nothing worth travelling for to see there. Not to mention trying to eyeball the binary in the first place, which if distant could be damn tricky.
Imagine having to fly hundreds of thousands of LS to check out a remote binary only to discover absoloutely nothing worth travelling for to see there. Not to mention trying to eyeball the binary in the first place, which if distant could be damn tricky.
I'd argue against it even being called "exploration" in the first place. Perhaps cataloging? There just isn't anything unfamiliar out there aside from the odd black hole.
Cartography is the word. Christopher Colombus was an actual explorer - what we're doing is more of the kind of Amerigo Vespucci.
I've tried to edit my OP to reflect that I don't advocate for the removal of anything, and I never believed it would be a thing.
I just wanted to know the reasons that make it important and sometimes sufficient to the players (not me). It's a different approach really - one sides values the actual discovery (= the "interesting" planets, the 1 out of 100), when my particular side values the road/work to discover those actual planets, interesting or not. I wouldn't care if I lose some time finding a single binary star 200 00 ls away because what's important is that I actually found it. And you could multiply the rewards for any basic system you'd discover this way. And imagine you'd discover something interesting this way - for me, it would be even more satisfying.
But the thread illustrates that exploration is not a one-sided job, and I'm really fine with that.
Ah, of course. Strangely satisfying word right there.
In response to OP - am 100% for exploration development, but removal of the infinite honk has so much potential to do the opposite of what you intend. Aimlessly wandering around in the hopes you'll pick up on a body that's a few hundred k ls from the star sounds no more engaging than revealing it all and moving on.
There are a thousand and one potential ways to improve exploration and I suspect as a combat player I couldn't recommend the best...I am hoping someone will pull an idea out that just makes me go "whoa!". But if I had to make a snap change, the "locating" of bodies could be done with the scanner - but nothing about that body at all is known. Not even the type - just that there's a body there or a star, and some further mechanics for identifying the body and locating points of interest on it.
But of course, part of the issue is the lack of interesting bodies or points of interest to discover in the first place...
Last edited:
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
i absolutely would support going back to the drawing board and having something like in the DDF.
and actually now would be the (only) time they could do it.
At the end of 1st encounters we ended up with a thargoid ship. its not beyond the realms of plausibility that the new fancy dan frameshift drives took some of their tech.
but now "they are back" it could be they do not like us using their tech and manage to do something to how they work (i am thinking of ques from the BSG reboot).
this would mean having to jury rig all our drives to get them working again, but, perhaps now they are not quite as good, and so need more data to be able to plot jumps to neighbouring systems and to get that data we need to fully scan a system, which is then sold back to UC, at which point everyone else can purchase that data which then expands the area we can jump to.
Any systems which have a nav beacon we can link with on jumping in which would download all jump co-ordinates to neighbouring systems for those who choose not to subscribe the the UC service..
how to transition players deep in the black back to inhabited space would be the big question. 1 possible solution. Before war out and out kicks off between us and the goids, perhaps a forced hyperdiction for every player, and we get a message "your acts of aggression against our kind will no longer be tolerated and we are disabling your drive. As a last act of kindness between our people we shall transport you to one of your main bases..... you can choose..... Colonia or Lave.
on dropping out into the system of your choice the stolen technology shall be disabled.
back in the day it was never expected to be able to simply get from sol to sagA in 15 hrs whilst still in gamma. it was touted as something we would strive for, taking a co-ordinated effort and assumed to take many months if not more. the improtant thing tho is it needs to be enjoyable.... just slowing it down for the sake of it is not good, but makign it more involved but at the same time more engaging, that is the key imo (and may be easier said than done).
taking an hr to fully scan 1 entire system is fine for instance imo, so long as we are doing interesting stuff, and with the knowedge that there is a chance we can find interesting or profitable stuff. but if it is just brainlessly flying around and it just takes longer than before, without adding anything new to actually DO... that would be bad... imo.
Last edited:
No? No. Choice is important; we have that right now. Don't like the god-honk? Use a basic or intermediate scanner. But of course that's too easy; it affects one person, but not everyone else. And it's so much more fascinating and enjoyable to massively impact other's game experience, instead. I read your 'clarification', I still don't believe yanking mechanics, in such a fashion, is a positive take.
And your subsequent comments continue the same "i would be okay with losing x for y", which seems to be at odds with the clarification, suggesting the original post was what you meant. And still very much do.
It's essentially plea bargaining. And we've had more than enough of that already. Because this is what these comments always boil down to. There are a bajillion things frontier could constructively add to exploration at this point; and I think developing the thing, is the better approach. It also never needs plea bargaining. Just some constructive consultation.
I have every interest in exploration being more than honk-scoop-jump; but yanking the advanced discovery scanner doesn't achieve that. Pretending it does, is just purposeful ignorance.
Last edited:
Could the instant honk be replaced with a gradual one, ie the honk is sent out and the results return over a few minutes depending on the distance.
This would seem more RL.
If you leave the system before the last results are in you don't get them. You never know if the last report was THE last report.
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, I am working so not enough time to read all 11 pages.
This would seem more RL.
If you leave the system before the last results are in you don't get them. You never know if the last report was THE last report.
Sorry if this has already been mentioned, I am working so not enough time to read all 11 pages.
You're pretty harsh at that point. And this is just discussion. So calm down a bit. In 11 pages, you're the first person directly attacking me as "intrinsically lazy".
As I said, and I'll repeat myself, a artificial handicap is not something desirable. Good if you have solutions to offer, and choices to give, instead of attacking.
Not really; it's just this topic has come up repeatedly, and the belief of 'artificial restrictions' as being a way to improve the game, is also a common justification. It's also very common to see plea-bargaining as a way to sell the idea. Which is a lot of what seems to be appearing, over 11 some odd pages.
I'm not attacking you, actually; I'm taking exception to the notion that in order to improve a thing, the first step is to toss out a supposed 'crutch' and then build an entire case around how that could be offset. Rather than simply observing that exploration is essentially scenic tours of the same types of stars, repeatedly. And it's about as deep as my frying pan.
The ADS purely speeds up how many frying pans I can access in a given period, and how much bacon (I need the DSS to know what type of bacon it is though) there is in the frying pan; it doesn't particularly improve, or not improve, the experience. It's a tool. Nothing more. It's "intrinsically lazy" to expect the entire player base to make a sacrifice, to then gain something else, through the removal of choice, rather than consider that options and choice are important, even if that means others may elect to do something you might not.
This is partly why a group of people will often happily ceed rights and privileges and freedoms, when confronted with choice. Because it's easier for someone else to make the decisions. This is always a very bad way to look at game mechanics (in much the same way as it can be bad in real life).
I am, have been, and always will be highly supportive of suggestions and improvement recommendations that give some life and soul to exploration.
I just take exception to the usual approach of picking something (such as the advanced discovery scanner) then build an entire case around why it's essentially a crutch and if it wasn't there, surely wouldn't that improve things? In a word? No. To improve a thing, you iterate the thing. Removing various tools to interact with the thing is missing the point. And that (iterating the thing) to me? Seems a better way to approach it.
Also, bacon. mmm.
Last edited: