Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

I guess my question was really "What's the NEW gameplay in a comet"
It seems there isn't any other than an initial 'cool' factor and another page ticked off in the I-Spy book of astronomical objects :)

Indeed comets are made from some pretty common ingredients. So the primary gameplay would likely have to be either purely scientific (not commercial) or would have to be sci fi... eg thargoids or guardians using comets to seed planets potential with compatible life. For example, rather than sticking around and waiting for a system to become colonizable, they could just implant long period comets with genetic material in crash-survivable micro-bio-pods and let them do the work of waiting and seeding any future planets with "dna" compatible life. So we as explorers could interact with them and look for "panspermia" comets and dig for samples.
 
Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Hey Sandro! Great to hear exploration's getting some love.

You may want to look at how the indy game Kerbal Space Program does what they call "science" - it's a very simple but fun mechanic for collecting and processing planetary data.

Edit: TL;DR version:

* Planets have a series of what they call "biomes" (not real biomes since it's not based on life); these are highlands, lowlands, mountains, plains and oceans.
* Your ship can have a variety of sensors, and as you fly, walk or drive over these biomes you can activate these sensors and collect data, so you get data from "low orbit over the ocean" or "in space over the mountains" - mountains are mountains, there's no distinction between this mountain range and that, or this ocean and that one.
* Once you've collected the data you can either take it back to the space center, transmit it back if you have an antenna with enough range or process it right there if you have a lab module on your ship. When you do that, you get science points.
* The game has various organizations that will pay you to go somewhere and collect a specific kind of data from there
 
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Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

I didn't read all responses, but am I the only one concerned about what is being *mused* here? Minimizing unnecessary super cruise travel? A big part of Exploration is the going and seeing, so that statement alone is concerning to me. You could almost read this as sitting at the star, and interacting with *things* that tell you all about the system, at which point you could investigate further, or move on. I realize there are a lot of people who might really like that, but I just wouldn't be able to get on board with any changes that lead to what is essentially just sitting and playing a mini-game.

In regards to Exploration, there is also an elephant in the room that doesn't really seem to get the attention that it should - exactly how do you make Exploration more fun/rewarding (defined as appealing to a broader base while keeping the current Explorers engaged), or more interactive? I'll speak about those separately.

Sure, you can add new interfaces that are more interactive, or add probes (the ME2 model is terrible, and should not be used at all), but any interactive things added leads to increased time spent, and there really isn't any way around that...unless you don't have to leave the anchor star any more. I am all for some kind of new scanning/searching system, especially if it rewards a higher level of skilled usage (without pooping on those less-skilled or less inclined), but only if it allows us to scan an entire system in roughly the same amount of time it takes right now, and still requires that we actually travel within the system. Others feel differently, and that's perfectly valid. Also, any kind of probe mechanic would have to have the ability to be replenished via Synthesis, or manufactured, via a module similar to the Fighter Bays. A probe mechanic, without some magical unlimited supply, also puts some ships in danger of no longer being viable for Exploration. Specifically, I'm thinking about the DBX, but there are others as well. Merging the scanners into one module, or allowing one of them to be mounted on a Utility slot (like it says in the Shipyard interface currently...) would be sufficient to alleviate this concern for the most part. I could go on, but I want to talk about the bigger half of the elephant.

Fun and/or rewarding - how do you do this, realistically? In this game, rewards are comprised of credits, Rank/Reputation, materials, and data. There isn't really anything else, and to be perfectly honest, nothing else would make sense for Exploration. So, how do you make it more rewarding in this context? Boosting payouts hasn't suddenly changed people's minds, nor did tying an important Engineer to at least a small expedition distance. This relates back to the improved mechanics - if those are improved, then that implies that there will be more things to find other than crashed ships/probes, and empty smuggler bases. So, what are you thinking you could place on these barren planets and moons that is going to make these new mechanics worthwhile? So, if the interactive, fun, new mechanics are only going to show us how little (of real interest) is on a given planet, that would seem rather like shooting yourselves in the foot. In all honesty, there shouldn't be many interesting things to find, but that doesn't change what I just said. You would be much better off giving us a good indication of the best place to land for gathering materials, than anything else. How long do you think it's going to take for someone to start making threads about how there isn't anything to be found on the planets, and how infrequently they are finding geysers and other similar features, and that the new scanners have provided *proof* that there isn't anything out there worth finding. Don't misunderstand, I like seeing the various physical features of the different planets, but those aren't rewarding or fun for the bulk of the playerbase, and there isn't any way to change that. Maybe, in this case, you don't care about the bulk of the playerbase (and I would salute you for that), but at the same time, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to invest a lot of dev resources for something that a relatively small group of people are going to utilize on any kind of a regular basis.

Exploration needs better tools, certainly, but what Exploration really needs is environmental hazards, and more types of planets to land on. I am aware that those are not likely on the near horizon, but that doesn't change what I said at all. That is what really opens the door for Exploration possibilities, and I look forward to it.

Riôt
 
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I don't think the honk is the issue. The issue is interesting things to do while exploring.

I agree with Slopey that ideally exploration rank should be a reward for first discovering.

But I think that this should encompass more than just honk and point at object for 30seconds.

The idea of a science module that explorers can deploy near a planet and gain further insight into it would be excellent, providing it wasn't just point ship at planet, fly to within 2Ls, drop into SC and deploy, wait 5 mins and then leave. That just drags out exploration.

If this toolkit would highlight 'anomalies' which could be resolved into brain tree plantations, ancient relics/archeology, fumeroles or whatever by further investigation it would reward those who participate.

I would also add that adding more science fiction than faction to these anomalies would stir people to explore. Finding a fumarole or standing gravitic wave anomaly, micro black hole, hyperspace tubercule leakages, ancient derelict or even space whales would quicken the pulse.

Having some science modules involve manipulation of tool, that requires some skill that would also occupy the player would be infinitely more rewarding than pointing your ship at an object and doing nothing for 30 seconds and then doing that again, and again, and again.

With all these gas giants with lifeforms in them, why not collect such forms and return them to the bubble for science? Same for these water worlds? What about xenopological studies of primitives on ELW, using sensors from low earth orbit? Or maybe missions from Cartography sending player to a location to resupply science base studying such intriguing stuff.

Exploration needs a lot of love.

But this love should never ever be a method to induce longer periods of monotony for those fanatic few who live 99% of their game life well away from humanity.
 
Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

From ToCoSo: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/307770-A-year-worth-of-Elite-photoshop-concepts

DR63N0U.jpg

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You still could have the planet to discover things which need advanced techniques.

I am one of those who wouldn't like to miss information. I like seeing the layout of the system without having to spent extra time on it. I feel we'd need more information than we have now to be able to make a supported decision to fly to, land on and continue exploring planets. I feel that the planets are a blank canvas right now, and it's the place where I see most opportunities for added features. From orbit to checking out a rock up close and personal.

Your scanner idea could work parallel to that in discovering bodies with lower mass like meteorites, really rich asteroids which would make traveling to it, and mining them bring exploration near the bubble again into play. For most explorers the first step is: get away from the bubble to find undiscovered systems. If the existing systems got more stuff to find, all the near Bubble systems would again be a target for explorers. This is especially beneficial to new explorers.



Opinions are like Sidewinders. :D

You can Engineer them to kill people overestimating their abilities?
 
Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

As in my previous post - make planets more interesting, more features, whatever the stellar forge allows. Any new mechanic will get old fast if we aren't surprised.

Exploration is a repetitive task no matter how you upgrade the stuff to do. But I'm all good as long as there are more wonders to find. :)
 
im not keen of the probes either. so explorers will now need cargo racks or dump the srv (and any way to get synth mats for FSD injection) to carry a lot of probe limpets (you can bet for balance they wont be unlimited or ammo). and if they do introduce limpet synth in 2.4 how do you get mats with your srv hangar gone to make way for limpet cargo racks? what do you lose for the controller? shields- in which case your chance of surviving long enough to sell data drops to 0 since you will have to win the interdiction game 100% of the time on return now? or the afmu? or do we just limit exploring to anaconda owners from now on or settle for never landing on planets except to get mats - finding POI now will be luck based on you picking the random planet and landing at the random right spot. by all means make the advanced disco find anomolies on planets and asteroid belts (DEF asteroid belts) so i got a good reason to go to them other than possible elw or ammonia, or because i need some arsenic.
 
At present there simply is no gameplay involved in exploration; anything would be an improvement. Perhaps instead of wasting time working on useless crap (cough karma tracking cough), Fdev should show the sciences some developmental love. And I don't mean DB talking about it, I mean actually implementing something.


Sweet baby Jesus yes.
 
This. So much this. It would be simply incredible.

It would be, for a short time. At that point, you will transition from your Beige Crusade, to making threads about how comparatively few planets there are that contain interesting things (now that the scanner clearly illustrates it) compared to how many are just the featureless, empty rocks that they should be anyway. It would be in Frontier's best interest to leave new scanning mechanics (that show more detail) out until we have more interesting places to land on, or fly in. The exception would be the above Resource Density scan, which they could implement immediately to the benefit of all players.

Riôt
 
I think instead of a scan time, there should be "ping" time. The active "ping" will obviously need to use FTL, but it shouldn't be infinite speed FTL. Make it like a sonar ping where you press the button, and the signal instantly heads out, and you discover close systems within seconds, whereas further systems will take more time for the signal to bounce back. It would still be an "infinite" (system wide) scan, but you might have to wait 5 minutes (or whatever) to get those far away planets.

To balance this long active ping time, I think passive scanners should identify the existence of all planets in a system, relatively quickly based on your ship's high speed movement in SC and parallax observation of light reflecting off the planets. A passive sensor may even be able to return approximate size and maybe even a fuzzy picture of the planets. Just considering how many megapixels are cameras have now in 2017!

As nanite2000 says, let all scanners have this "infinite" scan, with more expensive scanners offering more data in return.

I like the idea of scanners using real science, not Harry Potter's magic wand sensors or the Doctor's magic sonic screwdriver (with the obvious exception for FTL). Speaking of, sensors should not see through the sun, forcing us to either do a lap around the sun or go up above the ecliptic.
 
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what if it takes 10 times as long for 5 times the money? i would still say, no i am not aiming for that 200000ls away star the disco cannot see any longer, on the very tiny chance there might be something valuable to scan around it meaning its one out of 110 times that it was worth wasting my time.

It would depend on whether the additional gameplay elements added would offset the credit deficit by providing a more entertaining experience. Having said that I have assets of over two billion, 16 ships and 950m in ready cash so I can't pretend credits are my major motivator to do anything these days, they're just nice to have. That's not the point at which FDev should be looking to balance any gameplay.
 
Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Thanks for replying Sandro. Really, even just you admitting here that exploration is not where FDEV would like it is a huge thing for us. For all we know it's working as intended.
 
It would be in Frontier's best interest to leave new scanning mechanics (that show more detail) out until we have more interesting places to land on, or fly in. The exception would be the above Resource Density scan, which they could implement immediately to the benefit of all players.

Riôt

Nah, disagree there. The sooner exploration gets more in depth and engaging mechanics to use, the sooner actual meaningful content can be implemented that actually adds gameplay to exploration, not just eye candy.
 
Hello Commanders!

For what it's worth, I personally wouldn't mind removing the infinite honk, just as I'd like to see the removal of the basic stellar scan that forces you to fly close to get any data. I would like to see processes that were a little more involved (and cool looking/feeling) with regards to Commanders actually having to do something, whilst minimising uncessessary super cruise travel time. But this is just me musing. Like the karma system, exploration (and extraction) is something that we'll hopefully be getting into in some more depth in the forums.

Sandro, it's great that exploration will be looked at in the future.

However, please do consider that looking at the body discovery scanners is looking at the wrong thing - IMO the ADS should be left untouched. WHat should be looked at in more depth is the surface scanning mechanic - if you want to vastly improve exploration gameplay, that's where the gains are. For example, ToCoSo's illustrations are a very good starting point.

Again, to reiterate : body discovery should not take any longer than it does now. If you're going to lengthen the time it takes to survey /where/ the bodies are in a system, then I can't imagine a worse idea.

And as stated before, the "First discovered by" label really, really should read "First surveyed by".




Thanks for posting the thread and those examples o7

This! A thousand times this! Those concepts are what exploration should be more like - actual planet surface surveying. But please don't make body discovery take longer than now, whatever happens - wrong place to be looking for improvement!
 
Nah, disagree there. The sooner exploration gets more in depth and engaging mechanics to use, the sooner actual meaningful content can be implemented that actually adds gameplay to exploration, not just eye candy.

As I attempted to say earlier in the thread - what gameplay, Mengy? Your post regarding environmental hazards (again, totally on board) is pretty much the extent of Exploration gameplay outside of the main story arcs. There is no more gameplay to be had on the barren rocks we can currently land on than what is already in the game.

Please give me a list of engaging things on our current planet limitations that aren't already in the game (or could be with 2.4). New scanning mechanics don't add to the content that already exists, they just make it easier to find them, and also run a serious risk of highlighting how comparatively little there is to find (which would, again, be an accurate representation).

I want to be wrong, Mengy.

Riôt
 
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