Elite: Carebear

[Blaize Meduenin]

regarding how the game is build, of course players involved in PvP activities are a minority but 100% of players playing in multiplayer mode can potentially be involved in PvP activities.

But clearly the majority don't want to be, which is why a pve only mode is a no brainer and would solve all the arguments as pve players can then go there leaving those who do want pvp to be a possibility to stay where they are.

Since pve players are a confirmed majority (not that it wasn't obvious anyway) it boggles the mind why fd cater to the minority instead.

 

[Morbad]

As someone else also pointed out though, its not even a core design in elite, otherwise having weapons on ships would be compulsory.

The ability to damage other ships is certainly a core design point of Elite: Dangerous.

Despite numerous concessions and compromises made in this regard, the game has few hard, arbitrary, limitations on what you can or cannot do and that is absolutely intentional.

 

[Bieltan]

Frankly, neither of those forms of PvP hold much appeal for me. I don't much like organized matches because they are too artificial and have too many rules...they aren't representative of the combat I see in more organic encounters, and focusing only on organized matches, while useful for developing certain core skills, leaves one unprepared for other challenges. Likewise, I don't 'seal club' because it brings me no enjoyment as a player and serves none of my CMDRs goals.

See, I can absolutely get on board with "Organic PvP". Its something that, currently, Elite lacks, and would greatly benefit from. IMHO Powerplay would be a fantastic means to that end. Tie it to Open, and suddenly PvP becomes an important facet as undermining/attacking forces can be met by defending players.

The main obstacles would be PP rewards being comprehensively outdone by rebuy costs, and killcounts being potentially lower as CMDR actions slow things down.

My idea to counter both these issues would be to lower thresholds, or make CMDR kills MUCH more significant in their weighting, and for players to "sign up" to a specific system and operation for each cycle - rebuy costs from combat in said system would be covered by their respective Power.

This has the knock-on effect of giving PP Player Factions more cause to effectively marshall their troops...

 

[Mohrgan]

But clearly the majority don't want to be, which is why a pve only mode is a no brainer and would solve all the arguments as pve players can then go there leaving those who do want pvp to be a possibility to stay where they are.

Since pve players are a confirmed majority (not that it wasn't obvious anyway) it boggles the mind why fd cater to the minority instead.

Because, they want open to resolve itself. If they made it impossible to PvP from the beginning, they would have never gotten those customers. With that, making a PvE-Open leaves FD vulnerable to cries of betrayal from those looking to PvP. In FD's defense, they have been supportive of the ever growing Mobius community. Whether we like it or not, the Mobius private groups are the defacto PvE-Open.

This will have to suffice until the C&P/Notoriety systems intended effects are felt, which should be a long while after it is introduced. After the dust settles on the Notoriety system, then we may have a situation, if the notoriety system doesn't have an impact, where the calls for a PvE-Open may get some traction. In short we are doomed to stay as things are, until a consensus on the efficacy of a Notoriety system is reached at the very least.

This Notoriety system is a holding operation on both fronts. FD's focus on Seal Clubbing and Combat Logging make it attractive to both sides of the open argument, keeping us looking at what this will bring, rather than press for the preferred solution, a PvE-Open.

 

[Bieltan]

But clearly the majority don't want to be, which is why a pve only mode is a no brainer and would solve all the arguments as pve players can then go there leaving those who do want pvp to be a possibility to stay where they are.

Since pve players are a confirmed majority (not that it wasn't obvious anyway) it boggles the mind why fd cater to the minority instead.

Because the PvP players are adept at rooting out broken features. For as much flak as SDC get, they were dead right about the heat meta and healing beams being open to abuse.

As aggravating as it would have been to die to "Operation Healies 4 Feelies" I would also have been fascinated by the sight of 2 FDLs tanking a Coriolis' fury...

 

[ollieclark]

Drop out of SC the moment you realize there are CMDRs in system, precharge your low-wake, then wait to see if someone hostile drops in?

I was interdicted within 5 seconds of jumping into system. The contacts were only just starting to resolve on the scanner. I'd have to immediately drop out of SC every time I jumped to a system for it to have worked in this case. (Pre-charge hi-wake surely though - their friends were still in SC so they'd have just interdicted me if I'd lo-waked).

Python...occasionally packs a punch, but always a death trap. It's got that wonderful combination of soft and slow that makes it hard to get out of trouble when real trouble shows.

Ah, get a better ship. I didn't have enough money. What should I have done whilst I was earning the money? I might have survived in a faster ship, I suppose. But then it's likely that I'd have had very little cargo space so would have been stuck doing only combat.

I'm not complaining about being killed. But I was replying to "you can't get killed in Open if you understand the game". I think there are times when you have no chance to avoid being killed, or at least it's so inconvenient that being killed occasionally is less annoying than the constant inconvenience of assuming that every system is teeming with murderers until proven otherwise..

 

[Morbad]

(Pre-charge hi-wake surely though - their friends were still in SC so they'd have just interdicted me if I'd lo-waked).

I was under the impression you were trying to get somewhere in that system.

It's perfectly possible to drop out of SC a second time (or as many times as it takes) too quickly for you to be interdicted in this scenario. You just zero your throttle during the count down and drop out as soon as you are moving again in SC...then precharge before they can get into your low wake again.

I might have survived in a faster ship, I suppose. But then it's likely that I'd have had very little cargo space so would have been stuck doing only combat.

At the time of the encounter you mention the Clipper was tied for fastest ship in the game and was both less expensive and could carry nearly as much cargo as a Python. There were likely adjustments you could have made to the Python, which would have cost some profit, but that could well have made the ship survivable enough to escape.

I think there are times when you have no chance to avoid being killed, or at least it's so inconvenient that being killed occasionally is less annoying than the constant inconvenience of assuming that every system is teeming with murderers until proven otherwise..

You don't need to assume this for every system...just the ones that are likely to have relevance to others and even then only when you are in a vessel that can't run.

I've had some close calls, both as I was learning the ropes and more recently with things like ion disruptor mines and FSD reboot missiles, but I don't think I've ever been shot down except when I willfully hung around to fight longer than I needed to.

How inconvenient ship survival is relative to a pod ride home is rather subjective.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The stuff that's marketed as asymmetric PvP has more balance than ED. With the Engineers and the High Rollers around I see little incentive to play ED's MP again.

 

[Dirtbird]

I'm not complaining about being killed. But I was replying to "you can't get killed in Open if you understand the game". I think there are times when you have no chance to avoid being killed, or at least it's so inconvenient that being killed occasionally is less annoying than the constant inconvenience of assuming that every system is teeming with murderers until proven otherwise..

That must have been one heck of a surprise. I've just bought a Python and fitted it out the way I like it, and I hate the idea that I can just get ambushed and one-shotted with no answer or warning. I normally keep watch on the radar when jumping in system. Would it have been possible to fight the interdiction? Maybe you could immediately hard up or down on arrival in system and go full throttle, then read the scanner? Buy you an extra two seconds? No real idea, just throwing out possibilities. But yeah, you're right - it's a case of deciding what type and level of inconvenience you want to go through.

Or you could somehow join us in the Asia-Pacific instances. I've heard legends of griefers and gankers but I'm told they all come from Australia. Well, okay the one I actually have heard of but have never met. We simply don't seem to instance with unpleasant players here for various reasons including time zone, location, etc. We're all Care Bears or Drop Bears down under with our barbecues and beer and shrimps and sheep.

 

[wrmiller]

The stuff that's marketed as asymmetric PvP has more balance than ED. With the Engineers and the High Rollers around I see little incentive to play ED's MP again.

Yea, FD pretty much killed any chance of my playing PvP when they introduced the engineers. That move wasn't thought out very well at all. Unless it was just to reward those High Rollers as you call them.

Hope they (FD) got what they wanted. It doesn't affect me though, as I have no interest in ED's MP aspects as currently implemented.

 

[Rampant]

I resent that comment. In an average night playing Elite I risk heart disease, lung cancer and liver cirrhosis. Probably some others I've forgotten.

Alzheimer's?

 

[Rampant]

If it wasn't for solo and group, ED's Kickstarter probably would have failed and there would be no game at all.

Edit for you: If it wasn't for the promise of an offline mode late in the KickStarter campaign, there would *probably* be no E: D game at all.

 

[PeLucheuh]

Explain how being obliterated and not having any chance to prevent it is fun?

Check Rinzler's video about trading in Open on youtube. You are welcome.

Oh so now its anacondas not Cutters? Once again, you shift the goalposts. Convenient. Look. I'm not highlighting CMDRs who have been playing long enough to learn how to escape, or CMDRs in strong ships. Its been made clear time and again that I'm talking about seal clubbing, and only seal clubbing.

Shieldless Anaconda or whatever. And yes seal clubbing is griefing.

No, ED's core design is to make credits and climb the ship hierarchy. If guns were the main focus, they wouldnt be optional.

You are discribing the way you play the game not a game core design. Being able to shoot other in multiplayer mode is a game core design (there are others) that can't be ingored. You have to be prepared for it. It is not because you don't want to shoot others that others won't want to shoot you. Also for a trader/explorer, it is not about fighting back (weapons are useless) but mainly about surviving the attack.

 

[babelfisch]

I'll try again: This thread isn't supposed to be about PvP vs PvE, there are plenty other threads where you can argue as much as you want. This thread is simply about an argument that some people often use to dismiss someone's opinion or playstyle: "If you are avoiding interaction with me you are playing the game wrong. If you don't want to get blown up by me you are a coward". It would be nice to talk to those who regularly use this argument.

My intention was not to offend every PvPer, I also believe there are some CMDRs who enjoy the thrills of getting pirated. I don't think this should be taken away from you. If what I said above doesn't apply to you, chances are high that I wasn't talking about you.

 

[Mohrgan]

I'll try again: This thread isn't supposed to be about PvP vs PvE, there are plenty other threads where you can argue as much as you want. This thread is simply about an argument that some people often use to dismiss someone's opinion or playstyle: "If you are avoiding interaction with me you are playing the game wrong. If you don't want to get blown up by me you are a coward". It would be nice to talk to those who regularly use this argument.

My intention was not to offend every PvPer, I also believe there are some CMDRs who enjoy the thrills of getting pirated. I don't think this should be taken away from you. If what I said above doesn't apply to you, chances are high that I wasn't talking about you.

If you want to talk about those issues, bring them up. Continue to contribute posts on those issues. All of the surrounding conversations to your preferred topic are valid, and make a difference. Even though you initiated the thread you don't own it, once it's in the hands of the public you are just a contributor like us. You have to come to grips with that.

 

[Vorxian]

Check Rinzler's video about trading in Open on youtube. You are welcome.

Yeeeeeah. ok so I have watched this multiple times.

The jist of it is.. - This is how you do it - not, do it the way you want to.

Which is fair enough, he's right.. but.. it takes the 'your own' out of blaze your own trail.

*Blaze someone elses trail*.

Wonder if he could have gotten any more sarcasm into the vid though

 

[Yank31]

No but seriously though, there is a situation going.

I just came back from a 2 years break, 1 week ago. To my surprise, most of the people in my friend list are still playing, actively too. Which in itself, is a testament on how hooking the game is, no doubt. But, they all are playing in private or solo. Nobody goes to open.

So I asked them : "why not go to open, open is the best mode guys, we used to to wings together, open is where the fun is, it's called Eliteangerous, you've been playing for years now, you have billions, triple elite, all the ships... surely you can handle open... what is going on ?!"

"No, we won't go to open. Why would we go to open. We have no interest in getting demolished by some random guy that will just shoot on sight with an over-engineered ship, without a word. Do what you want, but we stick to private/solo, it's the same." they say.

Nonsense, I said. You guys don't know how to handle another player, what happened to you all...

3 days later in open, many commanders were met and the game was looking fine. I was being quite cautious though, seeing that I was still carrying 160.000 Ly worth of exploration data in my haul. Meaning I would be extra careful actually, and only flying in my (2 years old) combat Python.

But then, this player in FAS interdicted me. No words were spoken, he just obliterated my shield before I could realize what the f... was going on. And well, I tried my best but my best was clearly lacking, so I died. Goodbye data, thanks. This guy actually killed me 3 times in a row that night. Not a single word.

And I hate to say this, but I will, from this point on I play in solo/private. Yes I've already lost what I was supposed to protect, but I guess it's just... pointless, as they said, to play in open. Getting obliterated in seconds, because I don't have the proper pvp ship/build/skills, well... me, I guess I'll pass.

It's a real shame.


So my suggestion is (you're all allowed to laugh) : get rid of the solo and private. Keep only open, and then balance the thing so that people can actually live together. Piracy is great, even assassination player killing is OK, but it needs to be tuned to get along well with other professions.

Right now people are hiding in solo/private, myself included. Which makes the situation even worse for the poor/brave soul that just want to enjoy the game in open, let's call him the golden fish. If you have an aquarium with 100 golden fishes and 5 piranhas, then each golden fish is reasonably safe, because there's 99 others that can act as target / decoy / resistance.

But if all the golden fish go and hide in the "solo" or "private" aquariums, then the next golden fish who gets put in the "open" one, well... I wish him good luck, versus 5 starved piranhas.

Which also means that all of you that go and hide in solo or private (myself included right now), whatever the reason is ("just to be safe you know", "in open people are crazy", "get real, you just can't trust open" "I heard they have long nails and rotten teeth in open", "what's the point in playing on open, I just want to be alone", "Don't talk to me", "In 1984 Elite was a solo game so thank you very much, but I'll play solo") are directly, if not making, contributing to the "pvp fiesta" that open mode has become.

 

[TomS]

I like Carebears...

 

[babelfisch]

If you want to talk about those issues, bring them up. Continue to contribute posts on those issues. All of the surrounding conversations to your preferred topic are valid, and make a difference. Even though you initiated the thread you don't own it, once it's in the hands of the public you are just a contributor like us. You have to come to grips with that.

Sorry Mohrgan, I know that I don't own the thread. I also have no issues with discussing related points. However, I know that our lovely mods will close this thread when it becomes a copy of Hotel California. So everyone who knows this and still argues about it tries to get this thread closed in my opinion. Just like people are allowed to say what they want, I am allowed to ask them to stay on topic. I can't force you though.

PS
I am well aware that I can't stop people to run in circles...

 

[Ian Phillips]

Please everyone - do stay on topic. (re-read the Op if you aren't sure any more)

Thank you.