Question for HOTAS Users - Any Issues with Repetitive Stress or Fatigue

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I find that using a joystick (even one with a twisting motion) provides relief from excessive mouse and keyboard use.

I'm a programmer and spend all day at the keyboard. I have mild carpel tunnel. When I play first-person-shooters, I find that my mouse arm really starts to bother me. I don't have that problem with ED, since I use a joystick, although my trigger finger can fatigue after a while.

Instead of spending big bucks on a HOTAS that you might find uncomfortable to use, I'd suggest trying a low-cost joystick and throttle combo, like I use. I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It has a twisting joystick and 16 buttons (including a 4-way hat control). It has an integrated throttle "paddle" control.

I like it a lot. It's inexpensive and takes up less desk space than a full HOTAS. It doesn't really have enough buttons for ED, so I use the keyboard Shift and Ctrl keys in combination with the joystick buttons to trigger actions, for seldom-used commands like "open cargo hatch".

Mine cost less than $40 US and I've been using it over a year now: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826102204


I also use VoiceAttack with the Obsidian Ant HCS VoicePack for some commands. You should consider using it, since it offers a hands-free method of control. It's got some "lag" between the command and the action, so I only use it for non-critical commands like "request docking" and "raise landing gear".

Thanks for the product link and advice!

As for VoiceAttack and HCS VoicePacks, I've already been using them for about a year. I first got Verity (same voice as your ship's in game) and then got Orion. I may end up getting Eli as well. As for the lag, some of that is illusory and some is due to the way they've programmed the commands. For example, I've made my own commands to adjust the pips settings and (due to setting the key pauses much lower than them) mine adjust power much faster. As for the landing gear delay, that's in the game regardless of whether you are using VoiceAttack or not and varies depending on the ship. For a good example, use an Asp Explorer and manually put the gear down. There will be a several second delay between when the landing gear light indicator comes on (instant) and when the ship voice says "Landing gear deployed." Until you hear her say that, they aren't down yet, and you can't land yet (unless it was really close to being finished).

I constantly use it when in combat, giving it my custom command such as "Set Guard" (4 Sys, 2 Eng), "Set Attack" (3 Sys, 3 Wep), "Set Assault" (2 Eng, 4 Wep), and "Set Cruise" (2 Sys, 4 Wep). Obviously that doesn't cover every distribution you might want, but it often quickly gets them one or two key presses away from what you do want at any time. Plus you still have their built-in defaults which put 4 pips in the one of your choice and 1 in each of the other two.

So yeah, I recommend VoiceAttack and those VoicePacks to anyone, regardless of controller use. Verity is kind of bland, but blends well with the ship. Orion is hilarious at times. I expect Eli to me be even crazier; what do you expect when you let Q the AI loose on your ship (with no tv censors)?

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Yo OP. Sorry to hear about your illness, that very same condition wrecked my mum for about 12 years, although she was much older than I assume you are which apparently can make it worse so I hope you can bounce back more easily .

Sorry to hear about your mum. She probably had it worse than I do. As I said, mine is more often fatigue than actual pain. My cousin Lisa, on the other hand, has it much worse (imo). She has a lot more energy most days and gets a ton of stuff done, but deals with more pain. And when it really flares up, she's totally out due to the pain. The worse mine gets (besides amplifying RSI pain, when it happens) is I either get knocked out like have a cold or I have flu like aches and get knocked out more. However, it gets worse with age (I'm only 46) so it could get worse. I think my mom had it too, but she died when I was 19 (and 9 years before Fibromyalgia was an official syndrome) so I'll never know.

Thanks for you advice on device placement and how the device resistance my affect me.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Yes Hotas X here, sometimes a little in my thumb if I fly for hours, but nowhere near as bad as the xbox 360 controller which ruined my hands.
I am left handed and swapped mouse hand from left to right after years of long studio sessions giving me mouse claw..

Sorry to hear about your problems. The 360 controller isn't that bad for me UNLESS I've wrecked my hands playing a keyboard based game too much. Then I often can't use it either (basically, no gaming for awhile). It does cause me some pain when flying the Cutter (or a Type 9) a lot, doing lots of repetitive (and slow) fuel scooping and discovery scans. When that happens, I just stop playing (as soon as I can) and I'm usually ok the next day.

My interest in getting a HOTAS is to have better controls in the game. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't going to me more painful/fatiguing than the Xbox controller. The consensus seems to be that not only is a HOTAS not bad, it's actually much better for people with RSI and similar issues. So I'm definitely going to give it a try.

 

[who?]

I used to have a lot of pain in my wrist just from mouse-usage (pretty much completely resolved via a good mouse-mat with gel wrist support), but I've not had any such problems with a HOTAS. On the throttle side, it's a good idea to check that it has sufficient stiffness/resistance to ensure you can rest your hand on it without pushing it forwards. The hand-rest on the base of the joystick means that's fine for me. The only issue I've had is some forearm strain if the joystick is too far away (i.e my arm is too straight) and I'm playing extended periods. If it's set up right, it's not an issue.

Edit - I should also add: ED is a pretty good game in this regard, as there's a fair bit of waiting in the game. There are plenty opportunities to take your hands off the controls (while jumping/scanning/supercruising etc.) and have a stretch. I'm generally alt-tabbing to a browser every minute or so, so it works out nicely.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

I have been using my joystick since I was much younger and have never had any issues apart from now needing to wear glasses but it could be that they came first...

 

[Tarman]

As far as resistance in controllers goes, the CH kit is set up for a very light touch; good quality durable kit but easy to manipulate. I haven't had any issues with their ergonomics either. I haven't used an X-series but I have heard that some of the button placements on their throttle especially are off-kilter. CH Throttle is a good piece of kit paired with many sticks and I've seen that config countless times over the years here.

It does cost more than a pair of T16000s though and people swear by that loadout too. There are tons of options to find the best fit for your needs with just about everything. If you're running VA then you're already on a great path to less repetitive hand motions as the only limit is good setup skills.

 

[NW3]

The trick for you for ultimate comfort would be to find a way to place the stick lower than your elbow, either at your side or between your legs on something. The lower the stick is the less strain it will place on your arms and the easier it will feel to move...

Good advice. When I'm playing ED, I move my keyboard out of the way and put my joystick on the (adjustable) keyboard shelf. That means it's a good 6 inches (15 cm) below the desktop and below my elbow.

Thanks for the product link and advice!

As for VoiceAttack and HCS VoicePacks, I've already been using them for about a year. I first got Verity... As for the lag, some of that is illusory and some is due to the way they've programmed the commands.

So yeah, I recommend VoiceAttack and those VoicePacks to anyone, regardless of controller use.

You are welcome. I've been using Newegg for over 10 years and recommend them. As to the lag, I was referring to the ~1/2 second between issuing a command and it recognizing it. The "request docking" command in particular is a bit slow to activate, since VoiceAttack has to negotiate the menus. (It's much faster for me to do it manually, but it doesn't matter in this case.)

As to the HOTAS, many of them come with several springs, so that you can adjust the resistance of the joystick. I'd recommend the one with the least resistance. The tension in my Logitech joystick is fairly light and has not been a problem for me.

ED is a pretty good game in this regard, as there's a fair bit of waiting in the game. There are plenty opportunities to take your hands off the controls (while jumping/scanning/supercruising etc.) and have a stretch.

That's one of the things I really like about ED, it gives me plenty of time for in-game breaks in the action. I have some eye issues and being able to close them for a while, provides some relief, during hyperspace jumps, automated docking, supercruising, etc. The game has sounds to alert me, if something unexpected happens, and I can open my eyes and deal with it (interdiction or whatever).

 

[Spiridon]

Now I know this might look idiotic, feel free to laugh (can't beat my wife's reaction) but this is million times easier for my right hand then a stock joystick. A simple cheapest tennis racket tape for the grip, and electrical insulation cotton tape for the palm rest. Changes the way you hold it, much more responsive, no stress or fatigue.

 

[NW3]

Now I know this might look idiotic, feel free to laugh (can't beat my wife's reaction) but this is million times easier for my right hand then a stock joystick. A simple cheapest tennis racket tape for the grip, and electrical insulation cotton tape for the palm rest. Changes the way you hold it, much more responsive, no stress or fatigue.

Hmmm... I may try that. Rep++

I have the exact same joystick and 1/2 of a (leftover) bicycle handlebar wrap kit. (I only needed to rewrap the left side of my handlebars.)

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback.

I got an X-52 Pro Thursday and hooked it up yesterday. For anyone getting either an X-52 or X-52 Pro for Elite Dangerous, I highly recommend you watch this guy's video and download his pre-made binds. He really put a lot of work into customizing them and they worked great and saved me a lot of time. Also, they are preconfigured to work with the HSC voicepacks, so I didn't have to do anything with VoiceAttack after switching to the X-52 from the X-box controller; it all worked flawlessly.

Now the bad news: I don't think a HOTAS is going to work for me. I set mine up as ergonomically as possible (just slightly higher than elbow, mounted on keyboard tray). I started feeling forearm fatigue within 10 minutes - and this was just doing normal flight in the sidewinder tutorial. The fatigue strain only got worse the longer I played. Flying my Python from one station to another, to get my FDL, was bad enough. But once in combat... wow. I killed an Asp Explorer (Deadly rated, I think) with my FDL and it was exhausting. So I flew back to the station, docked, and switched back to the Xbox 360 controller.

So currently I can't use the HOTAS for more than 10 minutes before starting to feel fatigued whereas I can fly for 6 hours or more with the Xbox controller with no issues. :/

I haven't completely given up yet. I'm going to give it another try next weekend. I may also get this stand to get it down to an even more ergonomic height.

I can definitely see why a HOTAS would be good for those with RSI issues. And it was clear that, even though my flying was awful after switching, that once I got over the learning curve, I would be able to fly much better with the HOTAS. But if I can't use it without causing fatigue and/or pain, it's just not going to work.

Oddly, my throttle arm (left) was more fatigued that my stick arm (right).

I'll post again, after the next attempt, for my final conclusions.

 

[Elan]

I was beginning to have issues with my wrist using the throttle of the T.Flight hotas X, but I switched to the X52 Pro and its much more comfortable.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I find posture to be a big thing for me. I have to sit straight, not too different to our in-game avatars, to avoid fatigue.

 

[GG7]

I did suffer from this when I was using my X-52. I switched over to my Xbox One Elite Controller and haven't felt the need to return to using the HOTAS ever since.

Considering all the up sides to the Elite Controller with this game, from faster more precise response time, to having a Chatpad attached with ALL of my keybindings sitting right there on the controller, the HOTAS just doesn't offer the same level of control and speed for me.

The fact that my pain issues that I now know were resulting from the use of the X-52 have vanished was the cherry on top of the switch to the Elite.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I have no issues with my modified* Hotas Warthog & pedals

*stick extension/curvature and pedestal mount

My Saitek stick is junk though tbh anyone that sends me a stamped addressed envelope can have it for free

 

[Dale Emasiri]

You might get some pain using the flight stick during intense fights - since it can be a strain, especially with fibromyalgia. The biggest question is whether or not you can use an interchangeable rig that can put your stick/throttle on arm-rests to give you better ergonomic and comfort. The thing I find stresses my arm the most is the flight stick with the twist rotation, and also because my desk/chair isn't a great combination right now, and because it's not attached to anything (like the desk or chair) so I have to use it in such a way that it doesn't lift off the table mid-fight. This causing me issues would translate to probably having the same - if not worse - effect for you. Is there anyone that you can borrow a similar stick from and perhaps try it in different configurations and positions?

 

[Kingston@#]

I suffer after about 10 min using the hotas. only use it now as alternative FC. useful in a battle situation. main controller is 360pad.

 

[MarkAusten]

Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback.

I got an X-52 Pro Thursday and hooked it up yesterday. For anyone getting either an X-52 or X-52 Pro for Elite Dangerous, I highly recommend you watch this guy's video and download his pre-made binds. He really put a lot of work into customizing them and they worked great and saved me a lot of time. Also, they are preconfigured to work with the HSC voicepacks, so I didn't have to do anything with VoiceAttack after switching to the X-52 from the X-box controller; it all worked flawlessly.

Now the bad news: I don't think a HOTAS is going to work for me. I set mine up as ergonomically as possible (just slightly higher than elbow, mounted on keyboard tray). I started feeling forearm fatigue within 10 minutes - and this was just doing normal flight in the sidewinder tutorial. The fatigue strain only got worse the longer I played. Flying my Python from one station to another, to get my FDL, was bad enough. But once in combat... wow. I killed an Asp Explorer (Deadly rated, I think) with my FDL and it was exhausting. So I flew back to the station, docked, and switched back to the Xbox 360 controller.

So currently I can't use the HOTAS for more than 10 minutes before starting to feel fatigued whereas I can fly for 6 hours or more with the Xbox controller with no issues. :/

I haven't completely given up yet. I'm going to give it another try next weekend. I may also get this stand to get it down to an even more ergonomic height.

I can definitely see why a HOTAS would be good for those with RSI issues. And it was clear that, even though my flying was awful after switching, that once I got over the learning curve, I would be able to fly much better with the HOTAS. But if I can't use it without causing fatigue and/or pain, it's just not going to work.

Oddly, my throttle arm (left) was more fatigued that my stick arm (right).

I'll post again, after the next attempt, for my final conclusions.

I rarely use the throttle unless in combat. I have the numbers of my keypad set to -100% throttle on 1, -75% on 2 up to zero on 5 then +25% on 6 up to +100 on 9. That works really well for most things. I also have the + and - keys on the number pad set to increase and decrease throttle and the 00 to boost.

This arrangement may well help you. I bought a USB number pad to sit on the lefthand side on the keyboard so that I could use it with my left hand whilst my right hand operated the joystick.

I have to say that I rest both hands and arms as often as possible.

 

[Kaltern]

I too have FM, which as the OP is well aware, sucks.

I also have left arm Erb's Palsy, which means (among other things), that it's shorter than my right, and my hand/fingers are weaker. My right shoulder has pain constantly, and it has been a constant struggle to find a comfortable position for both hands on a HOTAS.

I currently use the TM T1600 FCS, which works quite well. Unfortunately, I find the throttle is not so great for those with poor digital dexterity due to the frankly odd position of the hat switches and other buttons. I cope, but I do wish for something less plasticy.

The stick however, seems to be nice, in that I can rest the weight of my arm on the stick hand rest, and the buttons are adequately placed. The resistance is sadly fixed, but it seems to be a good balance between tension and looseness. The twist, however, is hard on the shoulder.

It isn't probably the ideal stick for us. What I DID find however, is playing with putting the stick and throttle on a sloping angle helped with comfortable positioning. You might try that if possible, put something under the stick to angle it and see if that aids with fatigue - then find a way to make it permanent.

In the end, FM is such a personal condition, that one size never fits all. I hope you can find a comfortable solution o7

 

[nrage]

The Venn diagram of people who actually play games with a HOTAS and have either repetitive stress issues/chronic fatigue is probably so small that I feel dumb even asking, but here goes...

I have fibromyalgia. Fortunately, my chronic pain is nowhere near as bad as most sufferers of it, for which I'm thankful. Mine is more fatigue (which comes and goes) than anything. And occasionally, if I play keyboard/mouse games too much, I have to abstain from game playing for a week or two before that pain will go away.

I currently use a Xbox 360 controller with my PC to play Elite Dangerous, which I started playing back in 12/2015. I've been thinking of buying a HOTAS (particularly the Saitek X52) for some time now, but I'm concerned that I might get fatigued quickly using those controls. I remember finding a Thrustmaster flight stick to be tiring; however, that was 20 years ago and it was only tiring when I tried to use it for normal joystick games and not a flight sim, like Falcon 3.0.

Anyway, I was hoping someone in a similar situation could give me some feedback. I'd hate to plunk down the $$$ for a HOTAS and then find out I can't use it because it wears me out/causes pain.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Each stick or throttle feels different with more or less effort required to manipulate it. Each has its own unique shape and whether this is comfortable will depend on your hand size and similar factors.

I suffer a tiny amount of RSI/OOS due to my job as a software engineer with hobbies including PC gaming, guitar, drums, and so on. The biggest factor I found in whether I got strain was actually whether I managed to train myself to relax while playing. The thing that helped me learn to relax and fly was actually using a stick with a really light throw/movement. This stick was the Cobra Defender M5. It's actually "too light" I finally decided as you will find yourself drifting in supercruise as your attention shifts around simply due to the super light activation force required to move the stick.

I've tried all of the following sticks/setups:
- Thrustmaster T-flight
- Saitec X-52
- Saitec X-55
- Thrustmaster T-16000M
- Logitech Extreme 3D Pro
- Cobra Defender M5 (previous, replaced the X-55 w/ CH Pro Throttle)
- VKB Gladiator (current w/ CH Pro Throttle)
- CH Pro Throttle (current)

I started with the T-flight, and actually this gave me the most issues with my hands/forearms but I believe this is mostly down to me gripping the stick and throttle like my life depended on it, which digitally speaking, it did.

I moved to the X-52 because I wanted to see if I was missing out on anything, control wise. Turns out I was. I immediately progressed 2 rounds in the original Incursion (waves of enemies in a sidewinder). I put this down to the larger physical motion of the controller, resulting in finer control of the ship from larger physical motions (this is why a stick is so much better than a thumbstick on a gamepad for control/precision). I got less hand/arm pain and stiffness with this.

I moved from here to the X-55 because a friend had one and I was jealous Turns out this was a bad move. While the X-55 has more and slightly better controls/buttons it's got a physically fatter stick and is stiffer all round. My hands aren't exactly large so the added thickness on the stick meant that it was actually harder to move and twist. This is where the stiffness and pain came back a bit and was why I decided to look at other control options.

I decided to try dual stick and two new sticks (the X-52 would have been perfect for this but the stick plus into the throttle and not the PC directly, so annoying). I grabbed the T-16000M which everyone raves about and the Logitech Extreme 3D for a cheap 2nd stick just to see what it was like. The Logitech was, IMO, pretty terrible. At least, compared to the X-52 and 55. The Thrustmaster was better, but has so few buttons that I found myself missing the X-52/55. I also decided dual stick wasn't for me. I found using a stick for throttle or thrust was just annoying as you have to concentrate on it a lot more than a set and forget throttle, plus having one twist do vertical translation was just weird and irksomely odd for me.

So, back to stick and throttle and looking for something to cure my hand/arm pain I read that the Cobra Defender M5 was super light. So, I decided to give it a go. Not only is it super light, but I actually really like it. It has, what I consider, the minimum number of physical buttons and hats for Elite Dangerous and in addition has a wonderful mode selector that you can activate without taking your hands off the controls, this being one of the things I now look for - the ability to use all the buttons without moving your hands around. This is also why I settled on the CH Pro Throttle, while the motion is fairly plastic'y it's super light and has loads of hats and everything can be reached without moving your hands around.

I played with it for a while, but as I mentioned earlier I think it's actually too light. So, liking what I saw in VKB, and despite the poorer selection of buttons I grabbed the non-pro Gladiator. It's pretty nice to use, not too hard, not too soft. It does lack usable buttons/hats though - which is why I am looking forward to their Modern Combat Grip, although this requires a pro version base of some sort so will set me back a fair bit (and I've just got a Rift so..). Luckily it's looking like it'll be November before those hit the market so I have time to save.

So, I don't know if any of that will help you.. but maybe it will help someone out there

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I did suffer from this when I was using my X-52. I switched over to my Xbox One Elite Controller and haven't felt the need to return to using the HOTAS ever since.

Considering all the up sides to the Elite Controller with this game, from faster more precise response time, to having a Chatpad attached with ALL of my keybindings sitting right there on the controller, the HOTAS just doesn't offer the same level of control and speed for me.

The fact that my pain issues that I now know were resulting from the use of the X-52 have vanished was the cherry on top of the switch to the Elite.

I was not even aware the Xbox One Elite Controller existed. It adds just enough buttons to take of the few things I couldn't get mapped on the 360 controller. I'll have to give this some thought. Thanks.