Braben’s Vision and It’s Implications

[Han Zulu]

Well given the volumes of Star Wars lore out there beyond the movies, I have to ask what your definition of "HARD Sci-fi" is.

Hard sci-fi is supposed to be proper physics and science. There are things that aren't correct in the game, like gravity is odd, and how fast you can turn and move in sub-light, and so on. Also, the sounds, they're taken from airplanes and many times there are sound effects to things that wouldn't really make sound. Passing a planet for instance, why does that create a rumble?

It's really nit-picking, I know. But the science in ED isn't too bad though. It's good enough in my opinion. It's not super hard-sci-fi, but I'd say it's a soft sci-fi rather.

Making a game with complete proper physics would make it rather boring I suspect.

 

[Lucian667]

Well given the volumes of Star Wars lore out there beyond the movies, I have to ask what your definition of "HARD Sci-fi" is.

Large reams of Lore do not make science fiction Hard. Hard sci-fi has a well defined definition which is also my definition..... (taken from the wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_science_fiction)

"Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by an emphasis on scientific accuracy."

Apart from the fact that it happens in space, Star Wars has almost nothing even remotely connected to scientific accuracy. Its more about fantasy Knights and Wizards transplanted into space. Nothing wrong with that but its about as far from hard sci-fi as you can possibly get, lore or no lore.

ED has some elements of scientific accuracy (notably the distances and geography of space) but is vastly overshadowed by its many many areas of blatant illogical fantasy and outright ignorance of scientific reality for game purposes. Not saying that's an inherently a bad thing, games have to be fun, but one thing it most certainly is NOT is hard and if Braben is under the mistaken impression that his universe is hard sci-fi then that already explains a lot of its most serious problems.

Making a game with complete proper physics would make it rather boring I suspect.

I think it could work, but the audience would be very niche and it would be far more difficult from both a technical and game design standpoint.

 

[JosiahD]

Sandro Sammarco was interviewed this year's E3 and said work hasn't even started in atmospheric landings. If it ever comes, it is still a very long time away.

Much as I don't think Sandro would lie about this, I also find it very difficult to believe. So after 3 years and atmospheric landings (and by extension earth-likes and ammonia worlds) being arguably the most highly anticipated feature, Sandro is saying (unless misquoted?) that nothing has been even started? If that's the case, and space legs are also a long way off, just what exactly are we going to see in the post-2.4 period (short to medium term)? I mean, for explorers in particular, little can match the scale of improvements in exploration that atmospheric landings (including earth-likes and ammonia worlds) would potentially provide (assuming gameplay content comes with it of course), not to mention the additional gameplay potential for non-explorers. Yet they haven't even commenced work on atmospheric landings? <insert very grumpy face if it's true>

 

[Jack Schitt]

smellypresence

Childish, but I did actually laugh out loud at that.

---

A well-written OP and an interesting thread. I think it says much that even among those posts easily labelled as "moaning", the tone is more of disappointment than of anger. Most people can see what a phenomenal game ED almost is. So many elements just a gnat's whisker away from being something really special, but surrounded by so many dropped balls and missed opportunities. So great, yet so frustratingly short of what it could be.

Despite some rather dodgy tales from the Bell/Braben and GameTek eras I don't believe David Braben is a deliberately manipulative person, at least not when it comes to this game. My feeling is that his vision is honest, and the game he describes is very much the game he wishes to see realised in this project. But ED has fallen short of that vision, in some aspects very short. He needs to understand and accept that if he's to steer it back on course.

If I had his ear I would suggest he sit down and read through all of the DDF Proposals, particularly those Revised Proposals that represent the best vision that both his team and Elite's most loyal fans at the time were able to come up with, following serious discussion about what Elite should be. And that he compare what was written then with what we have now and base short-term strategy, at least in part, on reconciling the two where practical and being brutally honest about throwing out those elements that are no longer viable. Then, once the current iteration of ED is the closest it can be to that original Kickstarter/DDF vision, building upon that rather than throwing new and inconsistent ideas at an already shaky framework and hoping they stick.

Perhaps the imminent change of Executive Producer may be the impetus needed for something like this, not because I have anything against Michael Brookes but more in the hope that his departure might act as a catalyst for changes that could benefit the project in the long term.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong and David Braben is just a snake oil salesman, milking this IP for every cent.

But I don't believe that. He and his team have given us something different, something unique. But unless his original vision is pushed through there's a risk that this is all ED will ever be: a remarkable technical achievement that fell short of the "second life" it aspired to be.

I would hate for that to be its only legacy.

Now how about fixing those damned dive-bombing skimmers?

 

[EISENHORN01]

Ownership of an outpost or planetary installation doesn't necessarily mean it has to be 'DEFENDED' by huge numbers of ships or players it can be no different than how they're are now except if you are the controlling faction you actually get to control it.
You dock at the station you control and a new page is available which gives you several options

you set security levels (which is the deciding factor on if you have a black market) security vessels cost money as do upgrades for them and crew training as well as general running costs all things to spend your CREDS on.

you control what is legal illegal to sell on the commodity page at your station. This could have ramifications on security levels and cost you money.

bringing in materials and commodities helps build up your stations tech level which impacts on what can be done in outfitters (that's once you've actually reached the level required for your outpost or station to have an outfitters in the first place).

make it so you and only you can work on these things which stops abuse by player groups on fast track building etc.

make it so once you reach certain levels your station/planetary base can expand to the next stage (this could introduce all new stations).

give me a planetary outpost I'm nominally in control of, give me a ltd facility to store my ships (garage function not shipyard) let me develop that base at my speed, let me watch it grow and flourish into a metropolitan hub of commerce or slide into a galactic den of vice depending on how I play the game. GIVE ME MY OWN LITTLE PEICE OF THE E.D GALAXY and il give you EVERY WAKING GAMING HOUR I CAN.

A large player base is shouting out for space legs imagine if you could not only move around your ship but also your base.
But for me I just want to feel like I own a bit of real estate and the hundreds of hours I'm putting in are actually building something in the game and our gaming galaxy.

 

[VonBlade]

For Braben, the gaming elements are not focused on linear storylines featuring individuals who play through from beginning to end. Instead he is creating an overarching narrative of humanity’s journey in the galaxy — Sol’s colonization, the out-migration of generation ships, the emergence of human civilizations and stellar politics, humanity’s encounter with the truly other (i.e. Thargoids), and so on.

Reading this all I can imagine is how closely this matches George Lucas.

Forced to produce something that will sell well we got Star Wars/Frontier.
Allowed to do whatever they liked we got Clone Wars/Elite Dangerous.

I think that Braben's ideas may be better than his game.

Fortunately not to the levels of some game designers. CoughLionheadcough

 

[Xenith]

I'm not sure about that. I get the feeling Star Citizen is also falling into the trap of PvP combat/battle/warfare/pirates. All other things secondary.

This.

Not only will anyone be lucky to see the SC that was promised, but they will be lucky to see it within the next ten years. Feature creep, missed deadlines, impossible promises, even more impossible expectations, Star Citizen has them all. People keep harping on about it, like it's going to be the saviour of all space games, but I think they are going to be very, very disappointed... and angry.

 

[Vandaahl]

Just play SC or NMS... not even close.

Most practical answer wins. Apart from what you think of the vision or implementation and wot not, there is no alternative. At least not for me

 

[Jack Schitt]

PS I've just re-read through the thread handing out +1s and I don't think I've ever clicked that Rep button more in a single thread than I have in this one, especially for people I rarely agree with.

Clearly there is not much actual hatred for this game, at least not in this thread. But there is a whole lot of disappointment and frustration. Very little black and white, lots of shades of (mostly light) grey. I wonder if FD fully understands that, or if they just see the community as white knights to be embraced or haters to be ignored?

 

[Han Zulu]

This.

Not only will anyone be lucky to see the SC that was promised, but they will be lucky to see it within the next ten years. Feature creep, missed deadlines, impossible promises, even more impossible expectations, Star Citizen has them all. People keep harping on about it, like it's going to be the saviour of all space games, but I think they are going to be very, very disappointed... and angry.

And not to forget with the extreme advanced mechanics they're implementing for everything in the game, you need a 16 core, 4 GHz, 128 GB RAM, 4 GFX 1080 Ti cards, SSD drive, and a 1 Tbit Internet, and that's just to boot it up...

However, there probably will be about 80 thousand different ships when the game comes out. There aren't more planets for each version, but there's always another ship model being released (10 variations of the same too).

 

[Han Zulu]

PS I've just re-read through the thread handing out +1s and I don't think I've ever clicked that Rep button more in a single thread than I have in this one, especially for people I rarely agree with.

Clearly there is not much actual hatred for this game, at least not in this thread. But there is a whole lot of disappointment and frustration. Very little black and white, lots of shades of (mostly light) grey. I wonder if FD fully understands that, or if they just see the community as white knights to be embraced or haters to be ignored?

True 'dat.

Regardless of my complaints, I truly love this game and want it to continue for not only 10 years but long enough that I can go to the eternal sleep with a HOTAS still in my hands. It's the best game I ever played, yet... with the people and things we love, we always start to see the blemishes and the wrongly squeezed toothpaste tube. Still, we do love them. And it's the same here. There are things that can be improved to make it not just the best game ever made, but the bestest game ever possible.

-edit

Actually, better analogy. Your kids. You have a kid that has problem, but you know he/she has potential. You love them. Believe in them, but there are some attitudes and behaviors that could change just to make things so much better for him/her.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

Braben's vision vs actual developement is turning him more and more into dreamy eyed Shaun Murray as the months go by

The lack of solid communication regarding developement and 2.3 have made me rather pessimistic lately.

Iog in just to ait in the station and browse the forums and reddit in hopes that frontier will release news bout content that I could be doing in future instead of staring at the hangar...

The lack of news is going to result in me putting elite down and losing interest completely... It happened before... And when it has, i have not returned to those games... Would be sad if there were many more like me. Ready to hang up the gloves to never come back

 

[Jezzah]

Apologies I have not read all this thread. I'm not even sure what DBs vision is really except that it seems to be trying to blur everything and be everything to every player. I'm talking about the game trying to be:

A PvE game AND A PvP game

While at the same time trying to please:

Solo players AND open players

In my opinion after playing since alpha day one, these things, these 4 states are not compatible. Its become a mish mash of Frankenstein monster proportions. How can a game even attempt to provide the same experience, content, balance, rewards for the solo player as it does for the multicrew PvE player or the PvP player.

I firmly believe that the game, its features, its content, its potential has suffered to at least some degree trying to sort this vision out into something coherent, rewarding and progressive. Time spent balancing and trying to be everything to everyone.

Its taken me some time to come round to the opinion that this game should be a PvE game. Forget about this solo thing, forget about the PvP thing. It could be so much richer, with stable featuring, real team work, less homogenous in nature.

 

[Lightspeed]

Sandro Sammarco was interviewed this year's E3 and said work hasn't even started in atmospheric landings. If it ever comes, it is still a very long time away.

So what did Obsidian Ant, and others, see that was so "wonderful"? Hmmmm ..... :S

 

[Valethar]

they must use new strategies to generate revenue like in-game advertising

Absolutely not. That's an evil few, if any, will tolerate, and for good reason. There are other, legitimate, ways to fund development. Forcing us to endure ads in-game is not one of them.

 

[Soliluna]

So what did Obsidian Ant, and others, see that was so "wonderful"? Hmmmm ..... :S

Rooms full of Onionhead.

 

[Ziljan]

My favorite quote from the article:

I'm reminded of the quote from C.P. Snow, who said "Everybody is expected to know Shakespeare's plays, but they're not expected to know the equivalent sophistication in science." Like Maxwell's equations or something.

This is a prime example of why David Braben is my favorite human being in software development. He is using his platform not just to entertain, but to expand the minds of people who already have a passion for space. The intuitive understanding about the structure and size of the galaxy that almost all Elite players have is heads and shoulders above what the average Astrophysics undergrad knew with the internet of 20 years ago.

And for anyone who is interested, here are Maxwell's Equations:

Spoiler

^^^ These are a cornerstone of classical physics and modern engineering that made everything we know today possible. I think my favorite result of which was a prediction of the speed of light as being determined by the speed of propagation of the electromagnetic field.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

I see it like when your favorite band takes a tangent musically,it's not popular,many people will say its not good and that they should keep making the same music they did before. And then the tenth album is a work of genius. It wouldn't have happened without the journey.
FD need to make their game. It's the only way an artist can eventually produce something remarkable.
The game i have in my head isn't really achievable,but i'm looking forward to seeing how close they get.
Ultimately the game will be judged when its complete.

 

[Xenith]

And not to forget with the extreme advanced mechanics they're implementing for everything in the game, you need a 16 core, 4 GHz, 128 GB RAM, 4 GFX 1080 Ti cards, SSD drive, and a 1 Tbit Internet, and that's just to boot it up...

However, there probably will be about 80 thousand different ships when the game comes out. There aren't more planets for each version, but there's always another ship model being released (10 variations of the same too).

I genuinely feel sorry for the people who have paid for those ships with real money, especially the expensive ones. CR will be facing an extremely angry mob if he fails to deliver, which he probably will, given how impossible the task has become. But then again, he can just buy a mega yacht and sail away into the sunset, laughing all the way... if he hasn't already done so.

At least FDev delivered a product, and on time. There's a lot to be said for that; SC is still a tech demo after five years of 'work'.

 

[CMDR Ellegon]

I'd wager a large part of the malcontent isn't lack patience so much as not liking the direction of what has been shown. Infinite patience doesn't make past decisions better now, and it's those past decisions that are responsible for the current state of the game.

So if one is discontent with the feature decisions over the current season rather than its pace, patience offers no reason to believe we'd get anything but more of the same.

They can show whatever they want, there is always malcontent on the forum:

FDev: "We are adding a ton of new content!"
Forum: "We don't care, improve the core game features instead!"

FDev: "We are improving core game play next!"
Forum: "Oh no, the game is surely dying, they are not adding new content!"

Da capo ad infinitum!