Another player sees the light.
Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)
- Thread starter Stigbob
- Start date
Another player sees the light.
Interesting discussion. Kudos to the OP, mods and contributors (of all opinions) for keeping things mostly on topic and civil this time.
I play Elite Dangerous on PC but as along time user of XBox Live take personal block lists for granted. I'm somewhat surprised at the resistance to the mechanic being expressed by some players. There seems to be a fair amount of fearful conjecture without any evidence to support it.
This isn't an instancing problem. It's how matchmaking works.
When deciding which instance to put you in the matchmaking server takes into account your preferences with regards to the players already in that instance. Each player in that instance can have one of three states in relationship to yourself:
If a preferred player is an available instance you are more likely to be instanced with them. As a consequence you are less likely to see the neutral players in any other instances. You could argue that as the friends list takes precedence it has more effect on the players you don't see than the block lists. I don't think many players have an issue with that.
The whole thing is only temporary anyway. Change instance by dropping or high/low waking and, all other things being equal, the neutral players you couldn't see before will have the same likelihood of being in your new instance as any other neutral player.
It's all working as intended. Frontier has decided to give players the tools to shape their in game social experience to their own preferences. You could argue that player preferences should play no part in matchmaking. I think you'll find that would be not be popular with most players in a game which, in my experience of Open, is far more social than adversarial.
Do you have evidence of this occurring?
Even if it did I can't see how much of an effect it would have. I assume that some of the gankers are just there to provoke a fight with AA. Those who want to avoid AA altogether will just combat log anyway at the first sign of danger. And as much as I admire AA and what they have done in the game I don't really buy the idea that they make much difference to preventing seal clubbing in the area. If anything it may encourage some players to engage in noob stomping in order to provoke fights with AA or so they can feel like they are sticking it to the man.
It's just as likely that seal clubbers blocking AA could protect new players. If they are in an instance with an AA member then they would be less likely to be in one with the cowardly seal clubber. Add some AA members to your friends list and you increase the chance of being instanced with them and even less likely to see the ganker.
I can see how it would suck for AA if every bad guy that came to Eravate put them on a block list. But I just don't see that happening because too many players enjoy the cop vs. criminals gameplay that goes on in AA space.
We can speculate all we like but unless a real and active problem is identified it seems like a non issue to me.
In fact the biggest issue for me is that some are beginning to take what appears to be speculation as representing known facts.
Did you get this from what jasonbarron wrote? If anyone has any supporting evidence the please provide it. And if it is true just how big a problem is it? Unless there is some proof I will assume it is a baseless rumour based on under explored speculation of what might happen.
Sure they could do that. It may already be happening. But any purported PvP player or group that blocks someone out of fear is weak and risk averse. They would probably combat log on you anyway. If anything they are probably doing you a favour by not wasting your time.
And talking of combat logging: The block list is the most effective tool for improving the gameplay experience of PvPers who get annoyed by combat loggers. KOS lists have no meaningful effect on combat logger behaviour, though I get that are a useful release for the anger some feel. Frontier aren't going to sort it out any time soon... if ever. Just block every combat logger you encounter. Every time you do that it's one less combat logger to encounter. You could even do as Stigbob described in the opening post: sit AFK at busy stations and then check for players on some combat loggers list and block those that match*. Why play with players who you know will log on you and make you angry... unless the getting angry is part of the fun for you.
* Yeah there may be some false positives. But it's unlikely that some poor innocent will find themselves unable to log with PvPers because of some widespread blocking action. I think those that get most angry about combat logging are so fixated on the destruction of a ship that they won't block because they hope to destroy them next time. If they do meet the logger will almost certainly log again. Repeat, ad infinitum...
Players will always find unintended uses for systems in games. If there was potential for abusing block lists I'd expect players to have already discovered them and be using them. But I've seen no evidence of the potential problems that are being suggested. If there is some advantage to be gained it is unnoticeable.
TL-DR
Both the Friends List and the Block List are provided by the developer so that you to be more likely to play with the players you want and not with the players you don't want to. There's been a fair amount of speculative worrying about consequences and abuse. I find none of it convincing enough to change things and risk breaking a useful working system.
I play Elite Dangerous on PC but as along time user of XBox Live take personal block lists for granted. I'm somewhat surprised at the resistance to the mechanic being expressed by some players. There seems to be a fair amount of fearful conjecture without any evidence to support it.
This isn't an instancing problem. It's how matchmaking works.
When deciding which instance to put you in the matchmaking server takes into account your preferences with regards to the players already in that instance. Each player in that instance can have one of three states in relationship to yourself:
- On friends list = preferred
- Player on your block list, or you on their block list = least preferred
- Others = neutral
If a preferred player is an available instance you are more likely to be instanced with them. As a consequence you are less likely to see the neutral players in any other instances. You could argue that as the friends list takes precedence it has more effect on the players you don't see than the block lists. I don't think many players have an issue with that.
The whole thing is only temporary anyway. Change instance by dropping or high/low waking and, all other things being equal, the neutral players you couldn't see before will have the same likelihood of being in your new instance as any other neutral player.
It's all working as intended. Frontier has decided to give players the tools to shape their in game social experience to their own preferences. You could argue that player preferences should play no part in matchmaking. I think you'll find that would be not be popular with most players in a game which, in my experience of Open, is far more social than adversarial.
One ironic side effect of the block feature is when seal clubbers in Eravate block AA members
Do you have evidence of this occurring?
Even if it did I can't see how much of an effect it would have. I assume that some of the gankers are just there to provoke a fight with AA. Those who want to avoid AA altogether will just combat log anyway at the first sign of danger. And as much as I admire AA and what they have done in the game I don't really buy the idea that they make much difference to preventing seal clubbing in the area. If anything it may encourage some players to engage in noob stomping in order to provoke fights with AA or so they can feel like they are sticking it to the man.
It's just as likely that seal clubbers blocking AA could protect new players. If they are in an instance with an AA member then they would be less likely to be in one with the cowardly seal clubber. Add some AA members to your friends list and you increase the chance of being instanced with them and even less likely to see the ganker.
I can see how it would suck for AA if every bad guy that came to Eravate put them on a block list. But I just don't see that happening because too many players enjoy the cop vs. criminals gameplay that goes on in AA space.
We can speculate all we like but unless a real and active problem is identified it seems like a non issue to me.
In fact the biggest issue for me is that some are beginning to take what appears to be speculation as representing known facts.
Did you get this from what jasonbarron wrote? If anyone has any supporting evidence the please provide it. And if it is true just how big a problem is it? Unless there is some proof I will assume it is a baseless rumour based on under explored speculation of what might happen.
Sure they could do that. It may already be happening. But any purported PvP player or group that blocks someone out of fear is weak and risk averse. They would probably combat log on you anyway. If anything they are probably doing you a favour by not wasting your time.
And talking of combat logging: The block list is the most effective tool for improving the gameplay experience of PvPers who get annoyed by combat loggers. KOS lists have no meaningful effect on combat logger behaviour, though I get that are a useful release for the anger some feel. Frontier aren't going to sort it out any time soon... if ever. Just block every combat logger you encounter. Every time you do that it's one less combat logger to encounter. You could even do as Stigbob described in the opening post: sit AFK at busy stations and then check for players on some combat loggers list and block those that match*. Why play with players who you know will log on you and make you angry... unless the getting angry is part of the fun for you.
* Yeah there may be some false positives. But it's unlikely that some poor innocent will find themselves unable to log with PvPers because of some widespread blocking action. I think those that get most angry about combat logging are so fixated on the destruction of a ship that they won't block because they hope to destroy them next time. If they do meet the logger will almost certainly log again. Repeat, ad infinitum...
Players will always find unintended uses for systems in games. If there was potential for abusing block lists I'd expect players to have already discovered them and be using them. But I've seen no evidence of the potential problems that are being suggested. If there is some advantage to be gained it is unnoticeable.
TL-DR
Both the Friends List and the Block List are provided by the developer so that you to be more likely to play with the players you want and not with the players you don't want to. There's been a fair amount of speculative worrying about consequences and abuse. I find none of it convincing enough to change things and risk breaking a useful working system.
Last edited:
According to some players who consider themselves Lords of the PVP, if you block a combat logger, you just have skills to learn.
PVP in Open is about raw, unabated slaughter of everyone and everything. Whether it's cheats, exploits, combat logs or otherwise, you will not block them. You will bend over, drop trou and take it like a man.
Reminds me of playing Runescape nearly 2 decades ago now, going out to PVP in the Wilderness as deep as possible (highest risk, highest reward) - normally I'd leave from a central town called Edgeville but this time I left out of one of the main "free to play" cities, Varrock. There were no less than 30 people, all grouped on the edge of the wilderness, typically low levels, inefficiently geared with inefficient stat growth.
What I remember and why it is so relative is that they were talking to the "non-PVP" crowd, who were not in the Wilderness. Those who were just passing by or looking out or who had a quest nearby or were lured by the potential riches. All of them were basically quaking in their boots at the lowest part of the Wilderness, apparently not able to build up the courage to go deeper to where groups of PVPers roamed like packs of bandits, ready to pick your bones clean. Instead these people were trying to intimidate the easy targets, they would weave dubious narratives to lure people out (which would work, because these were mostly young teenagers) and then they would kill them. In this game, you would drop everything you were carrying except 3 items - unless you attacked first, then you would drop everything.
I sense that the "PVPers" who are worried about people blocking them are the same types of players, going after the low hanging fruit. That's why the block feature bothers them - they worry that they may not get those easy targets that make them feel more powerful or skillful than they actually are.
Well lets say we accept your altruistic psa on face value. Lets consider everyone now informed.
/thread
Last edited:
But some people want PvP without the PvPers who take advantage of game loopholes to do things that don't make sense or the game really shouldn't be allowing, like firing missiles into stations that resulted in the great missile nerf of 2016, etc.
On balance I'd rather say it's still very early days on the block research front, new CG to check out today after all and it's soon to be the weekend so things will hot up (or not if the blocks working). I'm also interested in finding out if I've been KOS listed for my blasphemous and heretical views.
If the thread bothers you, you can exercise player choice and just ignore or not read it. That's what I do with threads I think are pointless, it's like a block function for the forum.
Evil players responsible for all the games ills? Folks have a very short memory:
[video=youtube_share;-pltB5_f7Ow]https://youtu.be/-pltB5_f7Ow[/video]
Correct me if I'm wrong but low and behold a ship gets blown up in the station, thats an official vid Frontier produced.
I feel a whole new thread coming on.. In which I intend to dissect this whole fiasco.
Last edited:
Let me enlighten you, Blocking on xbox live works differently than on PC. YOU CAN STILL INSTANCE WITH PEOPLE YOU BLOCK...
Most PvPers don't take advantage of anything other than the money exploits (and let's be honest so has 80% of everyone else).
Has anyone ever pointed out to them that cloggers will clog even after being added to a list, it's an exercise in futility. Like a list of submarines you want to shoot down.
I've got to say that's really not a sales pitch that sounds appealing to me. I thought we were all just playing a pretend spaceships game.
That does sound a bit like Eravate.
Talking of dubious narratives I had a ganker spy wing up with me in a haz-rez and forget he had voice comms on as he tried to talk the rest of the wing onto me for the kill. They were spread across different res sites to maximize the chances of latching onto an unsuspecting target. It went very badly for the spy, he use to clog at the sight of me but I haven't seen him recently.
Yep, I think that's true. I also think the fear of exploiting the block function is similar, just because some players will exploit doesn't mean all others will. But if you exploit yourself you assume everyone does, as that's how many exploiters internally justify it.
That sounds like the standard ED block which just reduces drastically the chances of being instanced with someone you've blocked, or do you mean that blocking a player completely from all games via the x-box itself is unreliable.
Speak for yourself.
That's a great idea you should do it right now, I can save you some time on one issue though. Advertising is an art-form intended to manipulate you emotionally to buy stuff and has always skirted the edge of just how far it can legally stretch the truth.
Believing adverts really is a mugs game.
Hellgate London is an excellent gaming example of this.
It never ceases to amaze me, the way people twist reality to fit their agenda.
False advertising isn't legit. If I sell a product that is meant to do a certain thing and it doesn't then thats not the buyers fault its those who miss sell. At this point given what you've said you appear rather transparent.
Deleted member 110222
D
Huh. Well, I found myself not instancing with that fellow. I can only provide my observation.
Deleted member 110222
D
Okay upon further investigation it appears you're right.
I misunderstood.
Pop off and start your thread we can discuss it there, and I still don't have an agenda.
Easily taken in by marketing, much?
Let's see now, that's a Beta trailer, from WAY back before full release - those halcyon days when Frontier were completely and utterly naive about how all us players were going to get along juuuuust fine and everything's going to be a jolly game of Explorers, Traders, Pirates, and Bounty-Hunters.
Except, if you cast your mind back, turned out Frontier completely dropped the ball right from the start to such an extent that the game turned from that Very Jolly "Tee-hee! He blew the trading ship up inside the station! I'll get their bounty before you!", into this...
[video=youtube;w2Vpab6_5m0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Vpab6_5m0[/video]
All very jolly, huh?
It's taken Frontier almost 3 years to wake up and smell the coffee, and realise - finally! - that there are players of games out there who take their mission to ruin everyone else's fun very seriously, and that Crime & Consequences, which are practically non-existent, need to be added. Finally.
So please do cite that video from Frontier's naive days, even though it's 3 years out of date. You're basically trying to cling on to old and busted marketing in order to justify continued and never ending ruination of other people's fun - AND to go against Frontier's idea (still naive!) of "the spirit of the game".
Where on their website does it talk about the 'spirit of the game'? All I've ever seen is stuff exploding in vids and mantras such as 'cutthroat galaxy' 'backdrop of raw anarchy' or even 'hunt other commanders', 'infinite freedom', 'play your way'. There words, their video productions..
If you dont like the way other people play the game then thats a valid view. My point is, Frontier have advertised and sold the game in a certain way. Its therefore unfair to demonise how people play it when it doesnt suit the forum hive mind.
Can you at least not accept my point here?
edit: thats a quality vid, none other than my good pal orchestrating the event.
Last edited: