Explorers : would you consider giving up on the infinite honk for...?

[Gibbonici]

It's a shame this exploration discussion has begun with talks of the Advanced Discovery Scanner, as the topic of exploration is far wider than that - and much of the talk here so far (that which has been purely discussion using the ADS) is very limited in focus.

I agree, and I don't think that the ADS is a particularly bad exploration mechanic in its own right. It's perfectly reasonable from a background perspective that such a sensor could exist in the Elite universe, and from a gameplay viewpoint, jumping into a system and establishing the basic structure of a system before doing deeper exploration makes perfect sense. There is even a certain level of skill-based activity in using the information it provides.

Where exploration needs improvement is in the process after the honk. It's always felt to me that there are gaps in the exploration process between the honk and the surface scan, and after the surface scan itself.

Another thing is that I don't think anyone has touched on yet is that exploration isn't always about just getting the biggest payout from the system. Sometimes you need to find certain materials to synthesise FSD boosts, AFM refills and such like, so it would be rational for there to be some kind of scan that can help locate those materials within the system. Other times you might want to find planets with particular geological features for screenshots, whether its mountains, craters, canyons or geysers (which shouldn't be dismissed - exploration has always been driven in part by the sights).

Having some kind of survey process for finding these things would add depth as well as breadth.

Taking this idea a little further, system payouts could be modified for extensive surveys based on how useful that system would be to given industries. Resource and material rich systems could give a bonus based on its mining potential. Systems with terraformables and ELWs could provide bonuses based on its agricultural or tourism potential. You get the picture.

There's an awful lot that could be done to make exploration deeper and more satisfying, but I don't think removing the honk is the way forward. Keep what's there and add to it.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

People talk about adding skill and verisimilitude and interactivity to the detection process... that can ONLY slow things down, not conjecture nor speculation but simple fact.

Changing the detection process now would effectively be tantamount to penalising any new comers to the game. I am all for improvements but changing the ADS mechanic now would NOT be an improvement in any shape or form IMO. There are plenty of other areas of the exploration process that FD could concentrate on.

Sandro specifically said he doesn't want to make changes that slow things down.

 

[lenna]

Sandro specifically said he doesn't want to make changes that slow things down.

In that case the BDS/IDS/ADS should stay as is... perhaps with some rebalancing of the BDS/IDS though.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

In that case the BDS/IDS/ADS should stay as is... perhaps with some rebalancing of the BDS/IDS though.

Yes, maybe so. And there's always a strong possibility that is the way things will go anyway.

The potential exploration revamp has the potential to add a lot of depth to the game, both in local space as well as in deep space. It'd be great to hear about your ideas and thoughts on that. Assuming the ADS stayed the same, what additions would you like to see to exploration?

Your ideas on orbital and surface based scans are certainly areas where the game should be improved. What in specific would you like to see there?

 

[stephen_usher]

Sandro specifically said he doesn't want to make changes that slow things down.

Which is part of the problem, or rather the lack of depth and interest is the problem. Anything which makes the process more interesting would automatically cause the process to slow down as it would cause the played to *WANT* to take more time.

The biggest time waster at the moment, which is also incredibly boring is the way the "detailed surface scanner" works. It's just a twirly thing which takes an age and does little while it's processing and requires a lack of input to work. The opposite of "fun".

Maybe instead the discovery scanner should automatically do the basics of this process for large bodies within its scanning range (or a sub-set of its range) and replace the "detailed surface scanner" with something which requires skill in scanning a body at close quarters. i.e. the "bong" would do a basic scan giving basic details of all the bodies and "discover" them so that they could be handed in and given the person's commander name as first discoverer. This would both "speed things up" for those with little patience and want to "discover things" quickly and allow more gameplay for those who want to do more skilled detailed scanning.

Also, my proposal for "finessing" the ADS would not impact those who wish to "scan and go" as the bodies it would no-longer pick up initially would be those which those who "scan and go" would never bother to go and see anyway as they would be too far and take too long to fly to be of interest anyway.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I don't especially agree about the newcomer argument.

I believe the only real thing preventing such a drastic change is deep-anchored habits of old players.
New players would not suffer with an ADS replacement - it would feel normal and they would enjoy their time just playing, not counting the number the planets they could have pinned in 1 hour. Because the issue is time related, isn't it, at least on the detection part.




What can I say, I agree with both points.
I would have changed the initial message, but that's not very forum-ethical, and I just let it go with the flow. I regret the wording, even if I don't regret bringing up the ADS. I believe Michael Brookes hinted at this possible change even before engineers release, during a livrestream. He highlighted that the ADS was very generous and I was interested in knowing how it was considered among the community.

There have been countless exploration threads going unnoticed, and I think it's not a coincidence if Sandro eventually replied to this particular one. Now my first post also insisted on probes, both for system exploration AND for pathfinding in galaxy. The way an old DDF introduced it, discovering your way through the stars. This last bit went very unnoticed, but what can I say. My bad.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an important discussion to have. If exploration is going to be changed, then the discovery scanners are the first thing most people are going to talk about. The potential risk for that discussion however, is that the discovery scanners and surrounding mechanics become a sticking point which people can't move beyond. It would be a shame to see that happen, when there are mechanics outside of that which need to be focused on. Maybe Frontier need to work on building upon what we already have rather than replacing it. But either way, now would seem a good opportunity to get how thoughts in about what we want to see in the future.

You mentioned that the other huge part of your post has gone un-discussed, and that is a shame. I like the original concept of the galaxy essentially being blank, and it being filled in over time. However there's no real way to go in that direction now without changing huge chunks of the game. But I think there's room for that concept inside each star system. A blank canvas, that can be filled in over time, and maybe - for example being built into a immensely detailed Orrery Map.

• Arrival into System
• Advanced Discovery Scan generates system map as we currently have (minus certain data perhaps such as orbit information)
• Using this map we can choose to fly to certain planets if we wish for a basic scan (minus certain data such a geological formation)
• In this way, everything basically stays the same as it currently is, but opens up the possibility for further scanning and information gathering
• Alternative scanners could offer other possibilities

• Skill based scanners to detect orbit data
• Orbit based scanners to detect geological data
• Surface flight based resonance to detect finer layers of detail
• Surface driving for specific data set gathering

Just some thoughts on uncovering additional layers of information, which could then perhaps be fed into other gameplay mechanics for various rewards, feedback or background simulation affects.

 

[verminstar]

Explorers were, Yes. FD themselves, not so much. Which is a crying shame, as you have just presented some excellent examples of great uses for SLF's in an exploration role.



Z...

SLF...the possible uses fer more detailed and involving exploration and, dare I say it...fun. The possibilities were exciting at the time, until we found out they were pew pew only and that took half the fun away.

Still using them though...canyon racing...haha ye now thats what ye call a fun distraction. Shouldnt say that cos some people dont appear to like fun and will demand they nerf it into oblivion ^

 

[Ziljan]

Yes, maybe so. And there's always a strong possibility that is the way things will go anyway.

The potential exploration revamp has the potential to add a lot of depth to the game, both in local space as well as in deep space. It'd be great to hear about your ideas and thoughts on that. Assuming the ADS stayed the same, what additions would you like to see to exploration?

Your ideas on orbital and surface based scans are certainly areas where the game should be improved. What in specific would you like to see there?

Frankly I want to see what Sandro has to say on the topic first. And not be held hostage by some peoples' lack of imagination concerning discovery scanners. Some people would like to see the ADS to be turned into something interactive and skill based, and at the very least I think there are ways to make at the least the IDS and BDS actually useful without requiring parallax shenanigans.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Frankly I want to see what Sandro has to say on the topic first. And not be held hostage by some peoples' lack of imagination concerning discovery scanners. Some people would like to see the ADS to be turned into something interactive and skill based, and at the very least I think there are ways to make at the least the IDS and BDS actually useful without requiring parallax shenanigans.

Yep. I think we are going to see this very same conversation happen again and again as Frontier start reworking things like Trade, Smuggling and other areas. People will keep jumping in asking for things to stay the same because of..."xxxxxxx".

 

[Ziljan]

Yep. I think we are going to see this very same conversation happen again and again as Frontier start reworking things like Trade, Smuggling and other areas. People will keep jumping in asking for things to stay the same because of..."xxxxxxx".

I think you're right here, and I sincerely hope that Frontier errs on the side of innovation and added depth, because they will always be able to roll back the code if any change is truly unpopular.

I mean, if Frontier only "added new things" and didn't change old stuff, then the new stuff would either:
A) end up being tacked-on and irrelevant to the rest of the game, just like Power Play or CQC.
B) get shoe-horned into the existing game in a way that was limiting and likely not very cohesive, kinda like Multicrew

 

[MadDogMurdock]

The hardest part of any discussion of core mechanic overhaul is to convince players to shelve the Cr/hr, rating/hr consideration in favour of a discussion of whether the activity involved is engaging and fun.

So with that in mind, is the ADS infinite honk engaging or fun?
What improvements or changes to exploration would make it (more) engaging and fun?

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an important discussion to have. If exploration is going to be changed, then the discovery scanners are the first thing most people are going to talk about. The potential risk for that discussion however, is that the discovery scanners and surrounding mechanics become a sticking point which people can't move beyond. It would be a shame to see that happen, when there are mechanics outside of that which need to be focused on. Maybe Frontier need to work on building upon what we already have rather than replacing it. But either way, now would seem a good opportunity to get how thoughts in about what we want to see in the future.

You mentioned that the other huge part of your post has gone un-discussed, and that is a shame. I like the original concept of the galaxy essentially being blank, and it being filled in over time. However there's no real way to go in that direction now without changing huge chunks of the game. But I think there's room for that concept inside each star system. A blank canvas, that can be filled in over time, and maybe - for example being built into a immensely detailed Orrery Map.

• Arrival into System
• Advanced Discovery Scan generates system map as we currently have (minus certain data perhaps such as orbit information)
• Using this map we can choose to fly to certain planets if we wish for a basic scan (minus certain data such a geological formation)
• In this way, everything basically stays the same as it currently is, but opens up the possibility for further scanning and information gathering
• Alternative scanners could offer other possibilities

• Skill based scanners to detect orbit data
• Orbit based scanners to detect geological data
• Surface flight based resonance to detect finer layers of detail
• Surface driving for specific data set gathering

Just some thoughts on uncovering additional layers of information, which could then perhaps be fed into other gameplay mechanics for various rewards, feedback or background simulation affects.

Here's an idea for an extra layer.

How about an atmospheric sampling mechanic. This could be applied to both atmospheric worlds and gas giants. It could be done by adapting existing game mechanics.

For life bearing bodies in particular it's always bothered me that we just note that there is life without bothering to get more information.

Consider that the exosphere, the outer layer of Earth's atmosphere extends out to over 10,000 km, although it's incredibly thin out there. The Casini probe has recently been sampling the atmposhpere of Saturn. The closer you get, the thicker the atmosphere, the more your sampling improves and the greater variety of compounds you discover. The fuel scooping mechanic could be adapted for this purpose. It would of course be a risky business getting as close as possible and getting the best samples introducing some peril and skill into to the activity.

There could be interesting gameplay involving fitting ships best suited to low orbit atmospheric sampling. Given fitting limits I'd rather not introduce a new module to do the job. Use the fuel scoop or specially adapted fuel scoops. Maybe involve the engineers - it seems like the kind of thing Palin would be interested in.

 

[Gibbonici]

Which is part of the problem, or rather the lack of depth and interest is the problem. Anything which makes the process more interesting would automatically cause the process to slow down as it would cause the played to *WANT* to take more time.

While that's true, there is a lot of dead time in exploration as it is, just in terms of travelling from body to body to surface scan them.

I'm currently writing this post while my ship is covering 70kLYs to a possible water world. I'd rather be spending that time in my on-board exploration shed module fiddling with instruments to narrow down my travel times instead of surfing the internet to pass the time.

 

[lenna]

Your ideas on orbital and surface based scans are certainly areas where the game should be improved. What in specific would you like to see there?

I think the conceptual screen shots presented earlier in this threads cover the basic premise of what I personally would like to see - geological, tectonic/volcanic, radiological, atmospheric, and biological/lifeform scans/discoveries (preferably focused on orbital/sub-orbital/surface activities).

For example: the long range surface scan may highlight significant tectonic/volcanic activity but not necessarily the precise nature, an orbital scan may pin-point the location of the activity and maybe more details of the nature of it, a sub-orbital/surface investigation may then uncover the full details. In the case of low levels of tectonic/volcanic activity they may only show on orbital/sub-orbital/surface activities depending on the level of severity.

Where geological scans are concerned we could discover some form of sub-surface deposit of some mineral/resource from orbit/sub-orbit/surface exploration and then have to use some kind of geological focused SRV to drill/sample the deposit in order to identify it.

Where radiological and biological scans are concerned special ship board labs may be required in addition to perhaps specialist SRVs.

Overall, the point being things are added not replaced (or nerfed to any significant degree) - the casual and new players can ease themselves into the content or completely ignore it as they see fit.

A prime example of where complexity has been added by FD without apparent consideration for such factors is the external camera. I know of at least one player (not myself) who is really annoyed by the fact that they would have to spend some of their limited gaming time setting up the controls for the new third person/external camera features. FD could have preserved and ported the controls from the previous external camera mechanic and retained the one click external orbital camera view as an option. FD should be able to add this feature back-in without removing anything nor necessarily affecting the current control setups. WRT porting the previous control settings - that could still be done in theory.

Another example of where FD have screwed up with controller changes is in 2.3 (IIRC) was where we had to assign the discovery scanner (again) to a fire control group after they added the Data Link Scanner. This could have also have been avoided.

Improvements need not mean fundamental changes and if fundamental changes are made then retention of legacy controls/end-effect needs to be kept in mind. This is something FD (and other developers) need to keep in mind when considering any change to an existing live product. It is an easy way to lose and/or annoy end-users if this is not done.

 

[stephen_usher]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an important discussion to have. If exploration is going to be changed, then the discovery scanners are the first thing most people are going to talk about. The potential risk for that discussion however, is that the discovery scanners and surrounding mechanics become a sticking point which people can't move beyond. It would be a shame to see that happen, when there are mechanics outside of that which need to be focused on. Maybe Frontier need to work on building upon what we already have rather than replacing it. But either way, now would seem a good opportunity to get how thoughts in about what we want to see in the future.

You mentioned that the other huge part of your post has gone un-discussed, and that is a shame. I like the original concept of the galaxy essentially being blank, and it being filled in over time. However there's no real way to go in that direction now without changing huge chunks of the game. But I think there's room for that concept inside each star system. A blank canvas, that can be filled in over time, and maybe - for example being built into a immensely detailed Orrery Map.

• Arrival into System
• Advanced Discovery Scan generates system map as we currently have (minus certain data perhaps such as orbit information)
• Using this map we can choose to fly to certain planets if we wish for a basic scan (minus certain data such a geological formation)
• In this way, everything basically stays the same as it currently is, but opens up the possibility for further scanning and information gathering
• Alternative scanners could offer other possibilities

• Skill based scanners to detect orbit data
• Orbit based scanners to detect geological data
• Surface flight based resonance to detect finer layers of detail
• Surface driving for specific data set gathering

Just some thoughts on uncovering additional layers of information, which could then perhaps be fed into other gameplay mechanics for various rewards, feedback or background simulation affects.

Do you think that this goes far enough though? Should there be a full rethink on the mechanics if there's going to be such a big change anyway?

Stepping back a little, let's have a think:

• Discovery scanner:
  • Given technology in the 3300s and seeing what we can do today, why can't the DS give surface and atmospheric detail of planets and especially full details of the star (which we can currently determine hundreds of light years away)?
  • Should the scanner only "discover" the details of the side of the body directed towards the player?
  • As the pilot is actually there why can't that commander automatically become the "discoverer"?
• Detailed Surface Scanner:
  • If it's giving details then surely it requires skill and work to get that detail?
  • Seeing as the discovery scanner potentially give the basic info of the body, change the reason for the scanner to be that of a surveying tool, maybe?
    • Should it be able to scan for: POIs? Natural resources? Alien sites?
• Extra scanning systems?

Should data, other than that obtained using the discovery scanner be a tradable item? Should natural resource data be worth more in systems which are mining based rather than thosewhich are high-tech etc.?

Should data which takes more effort to recover be valued more?

Should exploration data return greater rewards the further from the bubble it's collected, other than minerals as their worth becomes less the further from the manufacturing base it's found?

Howeasy would these changes be able to be madeto the game? Would it take too many programming resources to build? Wouldit generate too much information for the database?

 

[stephen_usher]

While that's true, there is a lot of dead time in exploration as it is, just in terms of travelling from body to body to surface scan them.

I'm currently writing this post while my ship is covering 70kLYs to a possible water world. I'd rather be spending that time in my on-board exploration shed module fiddling with instruments to narrow down my travel times instead of surfing the internet to pass the time.

Should a lot of this initial groundwork be done for you by the honk? i.e. should the honk tell you that it's a water world? Given today's technology we would be able to determine this using a telescope and a spectrometer as soon as we were in the system.

Should you then only have to fly to a body (within a reasonable distance) after you knew what type of planet it was so that you could perform a detailed survey?

In other words, the "Discovery Scanner" discovers and catalogues, the detailed surface scanner is transformed into a detailed surveying tool which is only used when close to a body and requires skill to get the best ot of it.

 

[lenna]

And not be held hostage by some peoples' lack of imagination concerning discovery scanners.

Talk about a low blow... it has nothing to do with a "lack of imagination" but rather consideration for the diverse spectrum of gameplay across the community rather than nerfing a perfectly valid and working mechanic because of a much smaller focus group.

Improvements and complexity can be added without removing simplicity for those not interested in delving deeper - retaining the current DS/SS mechanic largely as-is and adding complexity at the near body level with teasers at the DS/SS level to encourage the near body investigations is the most end-user friendly way to approach adding more "depth" to exploration.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Talk about a low blow... it has nothing to do with a "lack of imagination" but rather consideration for the diverse spectrum of gameplay across the community rather than nerfing a perfectly valid and working mechanic because of a much smaller focus group.

Improvements and complexity can be added without removing simplicity for those not interested in delving deeper - retaining the current DS/SS mechanic largely as-is and adding complexity at the near body level with teasers at the DS/SS level to encourage the near body investigations is the most end-user friendly way to approach adding more "depth" to exploration.

I'd be fine with the current "honk" revealing only the most basic amount of information (# of stellar bodies, & whether those bodies are Stellar, gas giant, terrestrial or belt). Such info would not be worth very much, but would still be attractive to the casual "explorer" who just wants to pick up extra credits within-or just outside of-the inhabited bubble.

 

[lenna]

Should a lot of this initial groundwork be done for you by the honk? i.e. should the honk tell you that it's a water world? Given today's technology we would be able to determine this using a telescope and a spectrometer as soon as we were in the system.

Should you then only have to fly to a body (within a reasonable distance) after you knew what type of planet it was so that you could perform a detailed survey?

In other words, the "Discovery Scanner" discovers and catalogues, the detailed surface scanner is transformed into a detailed surveying tool which is only used when close to a body and requires skill to get the best ot of it.

There is a general Sci-Fi precedent for this in terms of Star Trek, I can think of at least a couple of TNG episodes where this applies. I remember one TNG episode where Wesley Crusher was put in charge of a survey team and specific scans where required to uncover certain information.

Overall though, I think the current level of information unveiled by the Discovery Scanners is fine - not too much and not too little. The Surface Scans are perhaps a bit too informative but I can see reasonable logic in their current level of detail. Currently material gathering is largely an RNG based process and it would perhaps be nice for this to be at least a bit less random and more logical - e.g. concentrations of materials to be determined by some form of procedurally generated map that dedicated scanners/sensors can plot from an orbital/sub-orbital context depending on other factors. High levels of magnetic/radiological interference could perhaps require surface level surveys for example.

 

[lenna]

I'd be fine with the current "honk" revealing only the most basic amount of information (# of stellar bodies, & whether those bodies are Stellar, gas giant, terrestrial or belt). Such info would not be worth very much, but would still be attractive to the casual "explorer" who just wants to pick up extra credits within-or just outside of-the inhabited bubble.

I think the current level of Discovery Scanner information is fine - and basically is just a gravitational/navigational map of the system supplemented by optical imagery - that imagery is far from conclusive where determining body type or worth is concerned. It also does not grant first discovery rights - that is reserved for surface scans and perhaps those rewards should be adjusted for new exploration discoveries after additional features have been added.

Rewards for near-body mapping exercises (e.g. geological, tectonic, radiological, biological, atmospheric, magnetic field, etc) should probably exceed the current rewards for basic surface scans and general body discovery. First discovery/mapping bonuses are a contentious issue that perhaps should be reduced to bragging-rights only.