Monday Madness: Stealing ships

[Robert Maynard]

So I'm proposing offsetting that cost to the 'thief' basically, either by giving them a ship of inferior worth (I don't like giving magical stat debuffs to ship so I'd like that 'inferior worth' to be something else - ideally in the wider context of a rework of crime and punishment to make criminality a more interesting, challenging and rewarding career) and/or by making them put in enough effort to justify the dozens of millions they could make.

With the "victim" colluding there'd likely be no effort at all.

Frankly I just wish Frontier had manned up and admitted to messing up the economy/progression after upping every reward tenfold or more across the board in mid 2015 while slashing running costs into nothingness. I mean they did admit it, but they did so by adding in a new currency instead of fixing the old one. Anyway, I belive modules and materials should be tradable - for the very reason I don't believe RMT to be a problem that justifies gelding player interactions. Yes, time is the currency of Engineers, and atm it can't really translated directly into credits because credits are so easy to come by there is virtually no time value associated to it. That's a problem with the value of credits and at some point Frontier needs to address that, they can't just keep adding currencies ala F2P MMO. This is supposed to be a serious game with verisimilitude at the core.

I'd expect Frontier's apparent reluctance to implement player trading existed before the implementation of Engineers (even though a player trading feature was discussed in the DDF).

If this is about griefing, we have the karma system coming to address that. If you're worried about players smurfing and using ship trading to avoid the karma system, I think that's a discussion for the karma system itself.

Much simpler (and better for those that would ultimately be affect by players abusing such a feature) not to implement it at all.

So why not let CS deal with RMT and cheaters, and let the designers do the job of designing the mechanics without worrying too much about it.

Facilitating credit transfer would worsen the problem for CS (as, if it was easier to transfer credits, there'd likely be more credit sellers).

 

[IndigoWyrd]

This has been talked about, hand-in-hand with Bipedal Locomotion many times.

There seem to be a number of people who want to be able to do this, but there are a few things to consider:

1. Ships in space stations, outposts or planetary facilities are locked down, which would make them extremely difficult to steal.

2. Ships on planets, not at a facility, are not locked down, but would require a would-be thief have some means of getting there - a ship of their own, and this would mean abandoning one ship to steal another. Great way to go from a harmless Sidewinder to a Harmless Corvette, without making any effort, and we all know too well how the forum feels about people getting things like this without the same years of back-breaking toil they did to get there.

3. Rebuy cost - if someone does manage to steal a ship, who pays the rebuy cost when it's destroyed? The owner should not, because they were not operating the ship. The thief would likely refuse, thus the owner would be out a ship worth hundreds of millions while the thief is out a freewinder. That should not be permitted. If the rebuy cost were simply waived, this would open a whole new level of abuse, so that would not work either. In short, there's no real workable means to pull this off. And this will lead to a whole new form of complaining - Theft-Logging - the ship's owner simply logging out gracefully or otherwise, when someone attempts to steal their ship. We don't need another avenue for complaining.

4. If ships can be stolen in-space, by spacewalk, we will also see a rise in both Theft-Logging and my favorite means to keep a thief from obtaining your ship: Self-Destruct.

Which leads me to Theft Prevention - if ships are permitted to be stolen, then we need a means to secure them against this, and I propose a very simple solution - a keycode. When we park our ships, we set a key code. Enter the wrong code, the ship self-destructs. Enter the right code, and you're operating the ship. I promise I will always set my code to 0666 ;-)

In short, ship theft - at least of player ships, is really an unworkable system. There are far too many factors that lead to pure abuse (5 minute old player>Here, steal my Anaconda and have fun, hey let me steal your ship to go griefing, hey, I was stealing that when you logged on me, QQ).

Theft of NPC ships could prove entertaining, if done as part of a mission, but they leave one small problem:

How do we get back to our own ships after pulling such a heist? We'd either have to pay to ship a ship to where we are, or book passage on another ship to get back.

In short, while it might sound like fun, it's really an unworkable system at this point, and this is Elite: Dangerous, not Grand Theft Spaceship. I'll let Rockstar make that game and I'll keep playing this one.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Otherwise, what's to prevent a wing to support one member to god-roll one ship, then clone that ship through repeated theft to everyone in the wing?

Nothing at all....

.... which I would agree would be a significant issue - along with the fact that rank locked ships would be similarly available to all.

 

[Jukelo]

With the "victim" colluding there'd likely be no effort at all.

I've offered two options to address that.
Look, I know English isn't my mother tongue and maybe something is getting lost in translation (I'm used to it, that's literally the main challenge of my trade) but still I'd appreciate if you didn't just pick a few words here and there that allow a snappy come back. I know there are issues with ship theft, and my posts in this thread are built around exposing them and finding solutions. After I say "there would be collusion between the victim and the thief and here's how I propose we address that" please don't just answer "there would be collusion between the victim and the thief and that's why we can't have it".
I'm trying to have a substantive discussion here.

I'd expect Frontier's apparent reluctance to implement player trading existed before the implementation of Engineers (even though a player trading feature was discussed in the DDF).

Definitely, player trading was discussed after release and I'm fairly sure Frontier brought up RMT as an issue. Then again because of the lack of a real economy and because I believe that's a job for CS (and if it's more work for them, hire more of them, I'm only interested in the game not the business FD has to run) I don't see it as a good excuse.
Still my point was that even if Frontier didn't have this paralyzing fear of RMT, the issue of tengineered modules transfered via theft-insurance-scams would still be up in the air as they don't increase the insurance value of a ship (although to be fair to Frontier engineered modules could increase the insurance cost without the need to unify or link the currencies).

Much simpler (and better for those that would ultimately be affect by players abusing such a feature) not to implement it at all.

That was true of all the interactions between players. In fact that same argument was true about the entire game. Why bother make a game? Much simpler to not implement anything at all!
Come on Robert, of course it's not simple. It's not a straightforward feature, and getting it to work takes effort. That's why we're having a discussion about it. That's why we have a forum.

I'm sure the producers will be more than happy to shoot it down themselves.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I've offered two options to address that.
Look, I know English isn't my mother tongue and maybe something is getting lost in translation (I'm used to it, that's literally the main challenge of my trade) but still I'd appreciate if you didn't just pick a few words here and there that allow a snappy come back. I know there are issues with ship theft, and my posts in this thread are built around exposing them and finding solutions. After I say "there would be collusion between the victim and the thief and here's how I propose we address that" please don't just answer "there would be collusion between the victim and the thief and that's why we can't have it".
I'm trying to have a substantive discussion here.

Apologies for moving swiftly to the crux of the matter (in my opinion) which is that there would be unlikely to be much effort required for the thief if the victim doesn't put up a fight - and the extremes need to be taken into consideration, i.e. BattleCutter, Engineer-Max-Edition for "free" - if the ship had any value once stolen.

I'd already suggested in the thread that the stolen ship could have no residual value and no prospect of being replaced in the event of destruction - that'd be one way of providing a (temporary) reward for the effort of stealing it without permitting credit transfer.

It would not prevent twinking though.

Definitely, player trading was discussed after release and I'm fairly sure Frontier brought up RMT as an issue. Then again because of the lack of a real economy and because I believe that's a job for CS (and if it's more work for them, hire more of them, I'm only interested in the game not the business FD has to run) I don't see it as a good excuse.
Still my point was that even if Frontier didn't have this paralyzing fear of RMT, the issue of tengineered modules transfered via theft-insurance-scams would still be up in the air as they don't increase the insurance value of a ship (although to be fair to Frontier engineered modules could increase the insurance cost without the need to unify or link the currencies).

The game's continued existence depends on profitability (as I doubt that Frontier would continue to pump money into a loss-making game for long) therefore running costs would need to be controlled to avoid reducing profitability.

Engineered modules transferred through theft would not have a credit value, true - however they have a sunk time value that could be gifted on a whim if ships were effectively duplicated on being stolen, i.e. thief takes original and victim receives identical copy as they would if the ship was destroyed.

That was true of all the interactions between players. In fact that same argument was true about the entire game. Why bother make a game? Much simpler to not implement anything at all!
Come on Robert, of course it's not simple. It's not a straightforward feature, and getting it to work takes effort. That's why we're having a discussion about it. That's why we have a forum.

Indeed it is - however Frontier have consciously chosen to implement particular features that affect how players are able to interact while at the same time have not implemented others. When contentious potential features are proposed it is perhaps unsurprising that there is more than one opinion with respect to whether it would be a "good thing" (or not) - and, yes, discussing the relative merits (or not) of proposals / features is what we do on forums.

I'm sure the producers will be more than happy to shoot it down themselves.

Indeed, the Developers likely have a view on the topic already - a bit of feedback from the community doesn't hurt though (from both sides).

 

[Edith_The_Hutt]

So here's my take from a lore perspective:

Property:
Members of the Pilots' Federation don't own ships so much as they own a licence to possess one of those ships. Each licence contains the encrypted designs to fabricate that ship along with any livery or components (modified or otherwise) that the ship contains at the time. This is how you wind up with your "old" ship back at port after watching said ship get blasted out from under you in battle. Only certain vendors are authorised to sell these licences, resulting in certain ships and components being available at certain ports, despite these ports being fully equipped to completely re-build any type of ship capable of docking. If this sounds like the most bone-headedly stupid way to organise a high-tech interstellar economy then... yes, welcome to the intellectual property market.

Theft:
Ship licences are inextricably linked to a Commander's pilot licence, central ledgers recording sales and keeping track of who owns what. It is therefore impossible to permanently steal a Commander's ship without either hacking the central ledgers (so far unheard of but theoretically possible) or stealing their identity. The Pilot's Federation run a central service to assist commanders affected by this called the Frontier Support Team. Pilots who believe their identity has been stolen or their accounts compromised should contact Frontier Support immediately.

Taking Without Consent:
Just because it is nigh-on impossible to steal the licence to a ship, doesn't mean you can't take the physical ship itself. Physical ship security varies wildly from the Imperial Clipper's set of full Biometric scans on docking to the Sidewinder's infamous three-digit security code. Provided an individual can breach a ship's docking bay and persuade a ship's internal security that they are the owner then they can request take-off permission and fly the ship whereever they so please. Most stations re-inburse part of the insurance re-buy to commanders who have lost their ship in this way as responsibility for a docked ship's physical security rests with the docking authority.

Grand Theft Starship:
Flying a stolen vessel is a risky proposition, while in theory the physical ship is now yours to do with as you like until it is destroyed, in practise you have now become the 34th century equivalent of a cattle rustler and will attract a bounty accordingly. A simple warrent scan of a pilot's ship will reveal the discrepancy between the ship's id and the pilot's registered vessels; the ship wil then show up as "Stolen" and the pilot tagged with a galactic bounty for stealing the ship. The Pilots' Federation takes Starship theft very seriously.

'ere mate, wanna buy some focus crystals?
There is a market for stolen ships: Rival corporations and powers are eager for examples of their competitors' work to disassemble and reverse engineer; the scrap value of a starship alone is worth the risk of stealing it to most criminal cartels. Most black-markets will buy a stolen ship for parts and some specifically request specific ships be stole to order. Selling legitimately owned ships for scrap and claiming the insurance is not recommended, each part is marked with a unique identifying code allowing re-sellers to identify exactly where and how the ship in question was lost. If too many pristine parts of the annaconda you claimed to have lost in a shipping accident show up on the re-buy market then the loss-adjusters may want a quiet word...

TL;DR:

• Ships can be stolen while docked via a mini-game based on station security and the ship-type
  • If you win then you get the ship
  • If you lose then you get a fine

• If your ship is stolen you have to pay part of the insurance, based on the security of the station you docked at
  • Either players get to augment their own ship's security or only NPC ships can be stolen. Otherwise this is a pretty unstoppable way to grief players with nice ships.

• A stolen ship will show up as a bounty when the ship is scanned with a warrent scanner
  • The bounty will be a percentage of the ship's re-buy cost

• A stolen ship does not get a re-buy; you lose it, it's gone forever

• Certain Black Markets will buy a stolen ship for scrap
  • In return you receive cash plus a basic Sidewinder.
  • You can't sell a stolen ship at the station you stole it from.

 

[Marklar_]

This isn't Grand Theft Spaceship.

Of course, if your ship could be stolen, station security would promptly come to your aid and deal with the criminal, by instantly blowing up your ship

 

[Zebaoth]

I usually lock 4 rathtars into the cockpit to prevent theft.
Haven't been flying for a while though, heh.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

I usually lock 4 rathtars into the cockpit to prevent theft.
Haven't been flying for a while though, heh.

Mostly because you can't get into the cockpit anymore?

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

All interesting opinions from all of you folks as always!

 

[JesusRocks1988]

This isn't Grand Theft Spaceship.

Of course, if your ship could be stolen, station security would promptly come to your aid and deal with the criminal, by instantly blowing up your ship

Bahahaha

"We'll help you get your ship back, but we can't promise it won't be a burnt out husk..."

 

[Misty_Dark]

In short, they have already implemented that you cannot steal a spaceship, just land on a planet, exit your ship into your SRV, and try to drive up to any random ship you find and notice how you are not allowed to dock... the same goes for anybody trying to dock their SRV into your ship.

So I do not see any big difference if you have spacelegs or not

What might change is when they add multicrew with planetary landings and the use of multiple SRV's.... but the only difference from our perspective would most likely be that you are allowed to dock your SRV to a ship that you are a member of (ie multicrew). You would still not be able to pick the pilot seat, call it biometric lock for the person who owns the ship or whatever if you need a lore explanation for this.
So what would be different if you have spacelegs in this situation? I do not see any difference at all... you would still not be allowed to open to the door to get inside the ship that you are not allowed to (ie you own the ship or are member of its crew via multicrew), just the same situation as with the SRV above.



I'm just going to ignore the multicrew holo-thing where your mind is just linked to a holographic projection. So a hologram, or "robot" is representing you and all that nonsense that explains howe you can be in two places at once several thousand lightyears apart...

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Additional Complications:

Ship Transfer - Since I still own the ship, despite it being flown by an unauthorized person, I should still be able to transfer that ship the moment it touches down at a station, outpost or other facility. Ship recovered.

Ship transfer would also inform me where that ship has touched down, thus enabling me to head to that location, and apply endless grief to the the thief every time they attempt to leave the station, thus creating even more venues for complaining.

I stand by this being an untenable form of game play rather than a useful feature.

 

[kmwmtd]

Should these kind of missions be considered by Frontier?

Though I like the idea of being able to steal another CMDR's ship, I doubt that FD will implement a mechanism for it as it could be used as a way to transfer funds between players - player A buys an expensive ship with expensive mods, and lets player B steal it, who then sells it and recoups the cost. Since FD don't allow player to player credit transfers, it seems unlikely that they will add a mechanism that can be abused to allow it.

However, if a security system is required, the obvious answer is to check the shape of the pilot's bottom since we have all just spent the last few weeks/months/years sitting in a seat that must by now have a pretty accurate bottom indentation in it - any unaccounted for space between cheeks and seat (a cheek-check, as it were) will immediately launch the interloper through the canopy into the path of the now firing weapons Just don't eat too many space cakes in the station cafe

 

[Arry]

Welcome CMDR's,

After being woken up at 2:10am by two little runts attempting to steal my bike and getting scarred when the alarms went off which sent them running I figured what is to stop someone stealing our ships once space legs arrive? (I know it's a long stride to imagine such wonderful times ahead of us.)

What kind of in-game lore is there to prevent such a thing?
How could it be by-passed?
In what way would you imagine an in-game mission to steal an NPC ship to take place?
Should these kind of missions be considered by Frontier?

All of this is of course is pure speculation so go wild and have a blast while I transfer the CCTV footage of the runts to DVD for my local sector police to collect... In several days of course just like in the game!
(Sorry couldn't resist that last bit!)

When I was a boy my family sold Ice Cream and the vans were parked in a public car park and we used to have to run a power cable to them to bring the freezers back down to temperature over night. One winters night said cable started to short and make the vans live with 240 volts and because of the tyres, they didn't blow the hefty fuses we had fitted. However: If you touched the door handles or the window frames, you risked death. At first we thought this was a problem, but then we noticed, that the local kids were no longer trying to get into them and so we left things as they were. Only issue being, if we forgot to turn the power off in the morning before we tried to get into them ourselves.

In short: Make them live.

Solution: Wear rubber gloves. Available from the FD store or to be ground for from an engineer.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Welcome CMDR's,

After being woken up at 2:10am by two little runts attempting to steal my bike and getting scarred when the alarms went off which sent them running I figured what is to stop someone stealing our ships once space legs arrive? (I know it's a long stride to imagine such wonderful times ahead of us.)

What kind of in-game lore is there to prevent such a thing?
How could it be by-passed?
In what way would you imagine an in-game mission to steal an NPC ship to take place?
Should these kind of missions be considered by Frontier?

All of this is of course is pure speculation so go wild and have a blast while I transfer the CCTV footage of the runts to DVD for my local sector police to collect... In several days of course just like in the game!
(Sorry couldn't resist that last bit!)

I get very attached to my ships.
If FDev introduce a mechanism whereby someone can come along and steal them then I'd immediately switch to Solo mode.
I'm not sure where the gameplay is in being the victim of theft.

 

[Xenith]

I get very attached to my ships.
If FDev introduce a mechanism whereby someone can come along and steal them then I'd immediately switch to Solo mode.
I'm not sure where the gameplay is in being the victim of theft.

This.

Unless I can rig my ship with a very large thermonuclear device, set to go off the moment they leave the station... oh, and if they die in a stolen ship, they pay a fine equal to the price of that ship combined with the total cost of the modules fitted.

 

[Morbad]

I'd be be content with the ability to simply steal fittings at first, hub caps, hood ornaments, rear view mirrors, engineered chaff launchers, etc.

They could then phase in the ability to board the ship, have a gun fight with the crew, rush to disable the self distruct/boobie traps, commandeer the vessel, then take it to a space chopshop for a new VIN/IFF.

 

[MarkAusten]

sell a "self destruct" module, that on theft detonates killing the thieving commander and wiping their save clean so they start from scratch again?

Nice!

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

As far as i know, the correct nautic term would be "hijacking" a ship.
If people use that word, the Dev's might be in mood to think about it