Complaint about BETA

[NW3]

I kinda agree with you for the simple reason that the beta tests don't seem to serve much purpose. I have seen countless of major bugs being reported and still, they didn't fix them in the public release. So, one has to wonder really why they do beta tests...

I think that the betas serve the function of finding unknown bugs.

As a programmer, there are a few reasons why known (reported) bugs don't get fixed (during a beta cycle): Risk, Effort, and Priorities.

If a bug is high risk to fix and it's nearly time to ship, the fix should be postponed. Every code change has the potential to introduce one or more new defects. Unfortunately, I've learned this the hard way.

If a bug takes too much effort to fix (man-weeks or months), it should be postponed and lesser effort issues should be worked on instead (since you don't want to delay release by additional weeks or months).

Every defect is assigned a priority. Higher priority tasks include crashes and game-breaking bugs. You may not agree with FD's defect priorities (like for example, cockpit UI colors), but that's life: You don't get a vote.

Fixing bugs during a beta cycle is a balancing act. Fix what you can and defer what you need to. Trying to fix every known/reported defect will delay the release indefinitely.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

I think that the betas serve the function of finding unknown bugs.

As a programmer, there are a few reasons why known (reported) bugs don't get fixed (during a beta cycle): Risk, Effort, and Priorities.

If a bug is high risk to fix and it's nearly time to ship, the fix should be postponed. Every code change has the potential to introduce one or more new defects. Unfortunately, I've learned this the hard way.

If a bug takes too much effort to fix (man-weeks or months), it should be postponed and lesser effort issues should be worked on instead (since you don't want to delay release by additional weeks or months).

Every defect is assigned a priority. Higher priority tasks include crashes and game-breaking bugs. You may not agree with FD's defect priorities (like for example, cockpit UI colors), but that's life: You don't get a vote.

Fixing bugs during a beta cycle is a balancing act. Fix what you can and defer what you need to. Trying to fix every known/reported defect will delay the release indefinitely.

As a developer for over 25 years, I agree with you. However, I think their code base is in pretty bad shape given the number of serious bugs that aren't fixed, if we assume they're too risky to fix during the beta. Either way, it doesn't look good. Of course, every software released contains bugs, that's a fact of life. But it seems that it's been a recurring situation with ED having serious bugs not fixed. It's been happening since the first version. I was not there when the first public release was made available but I've read countless of posts from people who did participate in the first beta who didn't think the game was ready for prime time. Of course, what is considered ready for prime time will vary from people to people, but, still, it just seems that it's been a recurring occurrence with Frontier's releases...

 

[NW3]

As a developer for over 25 years, I agree with you. However, I think their code base is in pretty bad shape given the number of serious bugs that aren't fixed, if we assume they're too risky to fix during the beta. Either way, it doesn't look good. Of course, every software released contains bugs, that's a fact of life. But it seems that it's been a recurring situation with ED having serious bugs not fixed.

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree with you: I also think the ED codebase may be of poor quality; that is, in the rush to release the game, shortcuts were taken. FD has already admitted that a lot of the game is RNG-based and is difficult to upgrade. I also think they probably don't have nearly as many unit-tests as they should. Either or both of those situations make it hard to reliably update the code and lead to unexpected defects.

 

[babelfisch]

I kinda agree with you for the simple reason that the beta tests don't seem to serve much purpose. I have seen countless of major bugs being reported and still, they didn't fix them in the public release. So, one has to wonder really why they do beta tests...

Exactly my same experience. Which makes you wonder why they have a beta...

While I agree that major bugs shouldn't go live without being fixed, I disagree that beta serves no purpose. If you look at the various patch notes you'll realise that they fix a few hundred bugs with each beta and often change game mechanics based on feedback. If you say that's no purpose you don't know what you are talking about.

That doesn't mean people should not criticise Frontier, but if you do criticise them make sure to do it right.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

As a developer for over 25 years, I agree with you. However, I think their code base is in pretty bad shape given the number of serious bugs that aren't fixed, if we assume they're too risky to fix during the beta. Either way, it doesn't look good. Of course, every software released contains bugs, that's a fact of life. But it seems that it's been a recurring situation with ED having serious bugs not fixed. It's been happening since the first version. I was not there when the first public release was made available but I've read countless of posts from people who did participate in the first beta who didn't think the game was ready for prime time. Of course, what is considered ready for prime time will vary from people to people, but, still, it just seems that it's been a recurring occurrence with Frontier's releases...

Another Dev here.
After the last two releases I've been starting to think it's their version control / configuration management system that's been letting them down, rather than the code being spaghettified. Seems to be a lot of stuff being broken in release that was fixed in beta and previous versions. Feels to me like the release branch isn't what they've been testing with.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Another Dev here.
After the last two releases I've been starting to think it's their version control / configuration management system that's been letting them down, rather than the code being spaghettified. Seems to be a lot of stuff being broken in release that was fixed in beta and previous versions. Feels to me like the release branch isn't what they've been testing with.

Hmmm... you know, you might be on something here. We've seen a few times bugs that were fixed in a previous release re-appearing in a latter release....

 

[Mr_Foxhound]

Actually most of these sorts of bugs are reported; the problem is the assumption that the developer a) doesn't know and b) can instantaneously respond with a fix. Neither is typically true. Don't assume one specific scenario is ipso-facto definitive proof. You'll just look foolish trying that line, frankly. It's almost never as simple as it looks. It's almost never not known about in reasonable time. Sometimes things break in ways that are non-trivial to fix.

Lastly, the developer is going to make mistakes on occasion, and there is no such thing as bug free code. Massive, massive oversimplification doesn't really help.

--

edit: the single biggest issue by far, has been Frontier's insistence on adding last minute changes and fixes that don't get tested, and instead are passed into go-live build. This is the one and only action I really really would prefer they stopped. I'd far rather they promoted a fully tested build, even if there are known issues and then document those known issues during go live.

Because at least the code is tested, and any issues can be pretty rapidly addressed via post-update patches. I'd far rather the issues were known, and already slated for fixes during go-live, than these untested builds that go live and cause utter chaos.

Frontier are, at times, their own worst enemy here. They need to knock that 'publish last minute fixes into untested build' to live nonsense on the head. Other than that, I have zero issues with their approach to beta. It's okay to not fix everything; just make sure the basics aren't busted and for the love of the maker, no untested last minute fixes. I'm watching you, Sandro. Always watching.

Spoiler

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/53/5371a6bec6b42d0ca7e9f828b6194a5c1f2d006539d04fb330abb1e3f0d722aa.jpg

the 30% synthesised ammo bug is still in the game

Has it. The thargoid bases seem to work perfectly. All the cut scenes seemed to work fine as well. In fact all the thargoid stuff has seemed to work fine. It's only the Alien Guardian (not Thargoid) Ancient Ruins that where badly bugged.

you really gonna white knight over semantics ?

 

[Leo Sagan]

Oh so this non sense is still going on then ? Carry on guys (shameless bump)

 

[kofeyh]

the 30% synthesised ammo bug is still in the game

Don't use colour; it's problematic for a number of reasons. If you want to highlight a point, do so with bold, italics or underline. Which bug is this, the one that people can use materials to synthesis ammo, which is a feature, even if you don't want it to be? Or the one where it was able to be maintained through rearm at station, which has since been fixed.

Having said that, bug regression has been occurring on and off for a while now; resolved issue reappear, which suggests the commit of changes is occurring against multiple trunks and this is leading to issues when merging. Or, they just keep returning bugs when replacing code, which has the same base issue.

It's hard to tell. Not arguing with you about bugs. But you can't call an intended feature, a bug, on puritanical grounds.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

you really gonna white knight over semantics ?

How do you white knight over semantics? And I don't white knight either. I have many issues with the game, but beta isn't one of them. Oh does that make me a white knight because I have a difference of opinion to you. Seems like the standard reply these days.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I pronounce it like "beeta" and that's pretty much it.

 

[Whitehair]

you really gonna white knight over semantics ?

The difference between Thargoids and Guardians is not one of semantics. They are two different alien races. Do try to keep up!

 

[Marcns007]

In the last Beta I felt it was wrong for people to find new content and then boast about it on the forum and spoil it for others.

I found new stuff and was on sub forums talking about it and it felt wrong, I agree with FD.

However I will wait for 1.4 proper as I am grinding on WoWships to get the Belfast.

 

[Mr_Foxhound]

Don't use colour; it's problematic for a number of reasons. If you want to highlight a point, do so with bold, italics or underline. Which bug is this, the one that people can use materials to synthesis ammo, which is a feature, even if you don't want it to be? Or the one where it was able to be maintained through rearm at station, which has since been fixed.

Having said that, bug regression has been occurring on and off for a while now; resolved issue reappear, which suggests the commit of changes is occurring against multiple trunks and this is leading to issues when merging. Or, they just keep returning bugs when replacing code, which has the same base issue.

It's hard to tell. Not arguing with you about bugs. But you can't call an intended feature, a bug, on puritanical grounds.

"the one that people can use materials to synthesis ammo" yes, the bug is, for the uninformed if you synthesis ammo and it runs out the 30% bonus damage stays and dose not run out it was kept secret by a player group and not reported ,it was found out and has still not been fixed .
they way you have replied by white knighting about bugs is your new here or you had no idea the bug existed

Citations :
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/318954-Premium-Ammunition-Bug
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...emium_ammo_bug_is_a_/?st=j63p24jr&sh=dbbf92c6
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359666-New-premium-ammo-exploit-not-fixed-in-2-3-10
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...munition-bug-(no-materials-needed-for-reload)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/322433-Permanent-PREMIUM-AMMO-bug-continues
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/357935-Premium-Ammo-Bug-Still-in-Game

 

[Mr_Foxhound]

The difference between Thargoids and Guardians is not one of semantics. They are two different alien races. Do try to keep up!

maybe people that are engrossed in the cannon thread , its all the same

 

[MarkAusten]

As a developer for over 25 years, I agree with you. However, I think their code base is in pretty bad shape given the number of serious bugs that aren't fixed, if we assume they're too risky to fix during the beta. Either way, it doesn't look good. Of course, every software released contains bugs, that's a fact of life. But it seems that it's been a recurring situation with ED having serious bugs not fixed. It's been happening since the first version. I was not there when the first public release was made available but I've read countless of posts from people who did participate in the first beta who didn't think the game was ready for prime time. Of course, what is considered ready for prime time will vary from people to people, but, still, it just seems that it's been a recurring occurrence with Frontier's releases...

As a developer for over 40 years, I disagree with you. The state of the code base cannot be judged by anyone outside of the development team and your suggestion is merely a guess despite the number of years you have been developing. Neither does anyone outside of FDev know why the bugs are not fixed. As NW3 posted above it will mostly be due to risk, efforts and priorities about which you or I, or anyone else outside of FDev, know nothing.

Yes, we can guess, but a guess is all it will be despite our time in the industry.

 

[Darth Ender]

As a developer for over 40 years, I disagree with you. The state of the code base cannot be judged by anyone outside of the development team and your suggestion is merely a guess despite the number of years you have been developing. Neither does anyone outside of FDev know why the bugs are not fixed. As NW3 posted above it will mostly be due to risk, efforts and priorities about which you or I, or anyone else outside of FDev, know nothing.

Yes, we can guess, but a guess is all it will be despite our time in the industry.

He said he thinks. Not that he knows. Not sure what you're trying to clarify. Do people not know what the word think is vs know? I mean if those guys exist, then it's good that you clarified it for them ...but they probably shouldn't be allowed on the internet in the first place.

If Fdev wants anyone to not just guess they can certainly fix that. But since they have not, all we can do is assume that they have a crappy process. Because if the process isn't the fault, then it falls on ability. And i highly doubt that they dont have the ability to fix the kind of bugs that people are mentioning.

 

[Rob At Work]

I am not involved in the software industry other than enjoying its products (mostly).

I purchased a life time pass which includes access to all betas. I have done a few and I can categorically state I don't find the beta process enjoyable at all. I guess I am not alone as Frontier have been progressively opening up their betas to non paying members of the community (not complaining) as people become more disillusioned/disappointed/etc... with this process and become less actively involved for a variety of reasons (IMO). I understand this is only for the PC side as Xbox and PS4 have different rules/structures in place for their respective client bases.

Lets call the next installment "The Return" - but ssssshhhhhh... nobody testing it will get to see the return - LOL - should've left it as ?????

 

[Shanaeri]

Isnt the point of a beta test to give the developer exposure to a selected group of users so that bugs/exploits can be fixed before the actual launch?

By charging you money, you are paying to take part in this extended test first and foremost and to get an idea of what's to come second. It was only 5 quid to pay for beta access, which is what one McDonalds meal?

Beta is not the same as early access or release.

 

[shadragon]

Oh, 100% certain the Thargoid content will be bugged to hell, but i think better that than spoiling the new content before its released for general consumption.

Honestly, I've played since 1.0 and I've never seen a bug that stopped me from playing the game. I've had to amend my play style a couple of times and do a few things differently, but I've always been able to do something.

They've also been fixed rather fast too.

Seljdon - if you think $15 gets you that sort of access, I want what you are smoking.