Criminal Gameplay needs to be made Viable and Meaningful

I strongly disagree with the notion that FD NEEDS to promote criminal activities in Elite: Dangerous. Dangerous != criminal.

why though? if i or somebody else wants to roleplay a Boba Fett and live the thrilling and dangerous life of a career criminal working for Jabba the Hutt, why shouldnt we be allowed to? why should we be forced to suffer through meaningless dredge that makes no money and takes too much time? because it inconveniences some other players?

the way i see it, piracy, smuggling, and murder are already a part of the game. if its going to continue to be a part of the game, then it needs to be expanded on and given meaningful gameplay to back it all up. if fdev is just going to ignore it all and add super harsh punishments to a playstyle thst already isnt viable, then just remove it all and disable pvp and the ability to commit crimes entirely.
 
the issue then becomes what is actually considered "toxic". IMO actual harassment and real griefing is whats toxic. A type 6 flying through an anarchy system and getting killed is not toxic, its an occupational hazard.

Agreed as is destroying another players ship to recover some high value item like a material, goods or parts. What is toxic imho (but appreciate its subjective) is serially destroying player ships for no good reason other than negative gratification of "doing them over".
 
Specifically, it's named after the *combat* rank. Elite: Entrepreneur and Elite: Ranger would also be valid titles - CQC could be rebranded "Elite: Hero" on the same logic - but give a very different impression about what the game is about.


I don’t dispute your logic.
The previous incarnations of Elite only had combat ranks. The exploration and trading ranks were introduced late in the original beta, long after the name of the game was chosen. So Elite: Entrepreneur wouldn’t have made any sense as the rank simply didn’t exist.

The answer to your multi choice is:
- Frontier subtitled the game "Dangerous" purely due to an obscure bit of lore which.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOYhoFYIWmw&app=desktop
about 5 minutes in.
 
I dont go on REDDIT, i was actually referring to here. It is a minority as with many things luckily, but just last week one guy said "whats the point in killing innocent people, if i wanted to do that i have knives downstairs (paraphrasing) and some other guy went off on a tangent about how being a murder hobo was literally directly relateable to murder/assault in real life. It does happen, but as i said luckily its a minority.

I don't PVP in ED, never did; but i did in Eve and we just killed anything that moves. Now i could accept that people didn't want to play with me that's fine; i only took issue when people A: condemned the way i choose to play and more than anything, B:...People who used armchair psychology to claim they know what i, as a real life person was like, and the kind of person i am, based on my actions in a game. It is bang out of order.

Again though, luckily its a minority, non the less its a disgraceful way to judge someone from a game.

As for your PSS; i totally agree.

One last comment before OP wants to kill me (hopefully just on the forum, not in real life ;)).

Pretty sure that you are imagining things. I am active on this forum on a daily basis and I have never seen someone comparing killing someone in the game to killing someone in real life. At least not to say it would be the same, maybe to illustrate a related point which you misinterpreted.
 
Agreed as is destroying another players ship to recover some high value item like a material, goods or parts. What is toxic imho (but appreciate its subjective) is serially destroying player ships for no good reason other than negative gratification of "doing them over".

exactly, so give them meaning behind it. The big reason people are so angry about getting ganked is they assume the people are being a-holes for the sake of being a-holes . If there were murder missions and crime families in the region, then at least theres now a tangible reason for getting ganked, and players who dont want to risk that can stick around high sec systems. which then leads to more hih risk high reward gameplay: systems under the influence if criminal syndicates might get olunged in to famines or depressions, or might want to import weapons to start an uprising and push the syndicate out. this would result in very valuable but highly risky trade missions to get commodites to those systems. and again, missions like that would only spawn in open play.
 
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No. He absolutely isn't right. NOBODY calls you a real life terrorist, cannibal or .

vA98LYG.jpg
 
Yes, I see your point and disapointment.
But the first thing you should face is that priates will very mostly die young instead of getting rich.

2ndly the punishments they introduced with 2.4 are linked to murdering other players only.
As long as you're dealing with NPCs no one cares about you. PvP has many faces and unwnated PvP
is a crime and should be punished even harder. For PvP you have conflict zones, Nav beacons, Resource
Extraction zones. Anyone entering these zones is aware of the things possible to happen.


Supercruise piracy against players is the hardest job you can select. Only following the roleplay will
probably get you some reputation in any other case you will end up as a ganker or griefer; select
your work of choice. Making profits from this in unlikely to happen, hence it is gameplay for those
which are already set in wealth and seeking entertainment.

I do commit that priacy with NPCs isn't that profitable because they do not really interact and sadfully
are not delivering the good you would like to have. Here maybe some adjustments are needed.

Regards,
Miklos

For PVP you have Open. Anybody selecting Open play is consenting to the possibility of PVP irrespective of whether they're in a conflict zone or not.
 
I strongly disagree with the notion that FD NEEDS to promote criminal activities in Elite: Dangerous. Dangerous != criminal.

Beg to differ, and I'm speaking as a non-PvPer. The problem as it currently stands is that players that want to just melt other players' ships can do so with impunity, and only one side is actually having fun. What a lot of people are hoping for is that the proposed Crime & Punishment & Karma system will balance stuff out so that both White Hats and Black Hats can have fun, by making more of the combat PvP meaningful and at both players' choice.

I've had a couple of encounters with players playing pirates and it was a hoot each time, even though I forced one of them to melt me.
 
Rather than criminal careers being driven in a direction which allows them to be used as an excuse for ganking, what I would like to see is real criminal gameplay which can be fully experienced alone, cooperatively, and through positive competitive play.

Problem is I've put this forward before, and just received a tirade of "but that means criminals/PvPers will have content no-one else to!"

Ultimately it doesn't matter how you look at it in this forum, you cannot put constructive requests forward for criminal or PvP content, because as a kneejerk reaction you'll get complaints - whether those complaints are consistent or not.

I've said it before and will again...hint at criminal/ganking activities, and you'll be told "I don't want to be your content, go do your PvP thing". Ask for any content to constitute "a PvP thing", and it's back to "we don't want you to have any content we can't have".

*shrugs*.

Either way, I am utterly behind calls for an enhanced criminal playstyle, as long as it carries the risks with it it should. Safe and reliable income is the realm of trading. Smuggling, assassination, robbery, plundering etc. should be high reward with a real sense of risk. And by that I mean actual risk, not the odd interdiction, and also not "banned from entering high sec systems/stations", which is conversely as risky as eating soft fruit.

And yes it means giving criminals content. But...miners have content that others don't, no? Believing you are entitled to experience all aspects of the game while remaining locked in your own playstyle is...well, I can't pick a word or expression that doesn't involve an expletive.
 
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Problem is I've put this forward before, and just received a tirade of "but that means criminals/PvPers will have content no-one else to!"

Ultimately it doesn't matter how you look at it in this forum, you cannot put constructive requests forward for criminal or PvP content, because as a kneejerk reaction you'll get complaints - whether those complaints are consistent or not.

I've said it before and will again...hint at criminal/ganking activities, and you'll be told "I don't want to be your content, go do your PvP thing". Ask for any content to constitute "a PvP thing", and it's back to "we don't want you to have any content we can't have".

*shrugs*.

I agree, but that often seems to be an issue for requests that start with "this should be your top priority..."
 
So you found twenty comments on a game that is played by a few hundred thousands of players. I can not tell if these comments are made by PvE or PvP players and if they are entirely serious. I admit that "nobody" was the wrong word though ;)

completely irrelevant how many are listed in that single image (ive seen WAY more in regards to the Salomé kill).

the fact is a guy killed somebody in a video game as part of an event, an event where the organizers fully expected and supported people coming out to kill that character, and he recieved death threats and people telling him to kill himself.

that is completely unacceptable in every capacity.
 
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completely irrelevant how many are listed in that single image (ive seen WAY more in regards to the Salomé kill).

the fact is a guy killed somebody in a video game as part of an event, an event ehere the organizers fully apexoected and supported people coming out to kill that character, and he recieved death threats and people telling him to kill himself.

that is completely unacceptable in every capacity.

I absolutely agree that it is unacceptable, it should get reported and moderated. But it's not unique to ED and PvP. You can get death threats for saying that someone isn't your favourited band on YouTube or for combat logging...
 

Deleted member 110222

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I actually have psychotic tendencies. I live with them every day, and it isn't nice. It's why I'm not allowed to work.

All these people who jump to calling gankers "psychopaths", haven't got a clue what they're talking about.

Armchair psychologists are funny. By all means, call them unsporting, unfair, thoughtless, whatever... But to claim mental impairment? Ha! You guys should be glad you have no idea what living with this crap is really like...
 
Having a criminal syndicate would be a good step in the right direction, on the other side a Bounty Hunters guild for the pvpers of justice and the players who want to protect player busy areas.

Combined with a Karma system that restricts criminals of entering the BHG and restricts the good chaps of joining the syndicate, until they have proven themselves offcourse. If they want to switch sides, they have to work for it.

Then a new gameplay called salvaging and destroying ships would earn both sides something.
For the pirates maybe a remote cargo transport to scoop up more goods. Or better if a wing of pirates want to attack something they should be able to have a player controlled freighter with them so they can split the spoils afterwards. Would give more incentive to play together.

So many opportunities here... i can't stop dreaming.
 
-Piracy that provides absolutely no profit.
Manifest scanners tell you exactly what's inside a ship before you blow the cargo hatch off. I've found gold, palladium and low temp diamonds in holds of pirated ships.
-Smuggling which is just trading with risk of a bounty.
Yup and lucrative too. Best payout for me in my trade stats is 660,000+ profit on one rares smuggling trip.
-Murderhoboing and getting told to commit suicide and being compared to real life terrorists, rapists, and cannibals by people on Reddit. (Not exaggerating, I've seen people unironically call PvPers theses things)
PvP'ers are not 'MurderHobos'. Some players use PvP as an excuse for murdering clean CMDR's without reason. Same with piracy. There's bad politicians, there's bad lawyers, there's bad cops and there's bad players.

The Beta is less than a day old. Why not reserve your opinion until you actually see the C&P system in operation? I assume you're not part of the Beta at this point as this is posted in DD and not the Beta forums. So...
 
The Beta is less than a day old. Why not reserve your opinion until you actually see the C&P system in operation? I assume you're not part of the Beta at this point as this is posted in DD and not the Beta forums. So...

OP is not talking about C&P, but about the profitability of criminal activities.
 

Yeah it happens Rinz, now kindly provide all the screenshots from some members of the PVP community calling PVE players 'spineless, lacking manbits, cowards, crybabies, carebears and much more besides just for a balanced view like. Listen, both sides that resort to this nonsense are wrong but it isn't one sided and people should hardly be surprised, (on both sides), when folk respond in kind.
 
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One last comment before OP wants to kill me (hopefully just on the forum, not in real life ;)).

Pretty sure that you are imagining things. I am active on this forum on a daily basis and I have never seen someone comparing killing someone in the game to killing someone in real life. At least not to say it would be the same, maybe to illustrate a related point which you misinterpreted.

Firstly, i hate you for making me scour the forum looking for the past 30 mins :p. I cannot find them, not because they dont exist, i dont imagine things, but because ive slept since and im quite active on the forum myself so i cannot remember where comments are buried 30 pages deep.

Page 8 of "In open play, is killing innocent CMDRs Fair? thread there is an example. Not as bad as the others, but even making the comparison is dumb.

When i get home i'll find the other 2 by checking my history. Not that i have to prove this stuff btw, it seems people on here are fully aware it happens.
 
Elite: Dangerous is named for a reason. It's a cutthroat galaxy out there, and not everybody is a law abiding citizen. Many large and powerful criminal groups exist throughout the galaxy, and these syndicates bring in lots of money and influence. So why is it that whenever a player tries to go over to the dark side that they get one of three things:

-Piracy that provides absolutely no profit.
-Smuggling which is just trading with risk of a bounty.
-Murderhoboing and getting told to commit suicide and being compared to real life terrorists, rapists, and cannibals by people on Reddit. (Not exaggerating, I've seen people unironically call PvPers theses things)

And now there's going to be further punishment for being a criminal which only continues to push the penalties far beyond any potential rewards one might get for engaging in actual meaningful gameplay.

So I say Elite needs to take one from Star Citizen's playbook and actually start making crime the high risk, high reward playstyle it should have always been. Using Star Citizen as an example, that's game's alpha has a bare bones crime system that already has for more meaning than Elite does. If you commit a crime in Star citizen, you can no longer spawn or visit the main station, you get sent to the pirate station that has a much smaller armistice zone (so you can be gunned down on the landing pad by another player) but this pirate station has its own theme and feel and special shops for more anarchy themed clothing and gear. You also then get missions to go and commit crimes or to break in to a security port to delete your criminal record, missions other players get counterparts to that involve them stopping you.

So bring that method in to Elite. Add in major criminal syndicates that have bases in anarchy systems and allow players to get in good with them by taking on sabotage, murder, and piracy missions. Maybe have it set up so a player has to work for a small time black market dealer representing the group in a low-sec system before they get invited to work for the syndicate out of their home anarchy system, and players who try to fly through that system without being invited will be attacked by the syndicates goons.

As players work their way up through the ranks, maybe have a contact that will unlock and allow a player to pay off their bounty at a reduced rate with a timer of 30 minutes (to allow the smooth talker who's services you hired to make a couple of calls nudge nudge wink wink). That way, you still have the penalty, you still have to pay credits, but because you're a dedicated criminal and have worked hard at getting reputation with a major crime syndicate, you get to take some of that pressure off.

As for missions, maybe have low reputation missions be as simple as "go murder some dudes in this low sec system (player or otherwise) to scare the population" for like, 20-100k and then with higher reputations have a 1-3mil mission to go in to a high sec system and kill cops, and then get another 500k bonus chained mission to go down and sabotage an outpost by destroying the anti air guns. Have actual piracy missions that will mark cargo you take from an NPC or player as pirated goods you can sell to the syndicate black market for increased profits as well as mission rewards.

And then, to counter this newfound viability in being a criminal, have more skilled and numerous cops come after you the higher your bounty is, making you have to stick to anarchy systems as much as possible.

this could then tie in to the future karma system, where players who have really high reps with criminal syndicate should will start to gain a stigma around high sec systems even if they don't currently have a bounty. Causing stations in those systems to have people who recognize you as a member of a big crime ring and give you half value in anything you try to sell or refuse to give you the highest paying missions.

When I think of Crime in open ended games like Elite, I always imagine Elder Scrolls. I remember playing Morrowind and doing the Thieves Guild quests, and the thrill of sticking to night, sneaking through towns to avoid guards and breaking in to houses, stealing the valuables of nobles and shop keepers, and the frantic escaping if I ever got caught. It's a rush, and a very fun way to play the game with high risk and high reward. I want to see Elite follow that example and let people who want to play a criminal have the tools and support to do so. Yes, give them consequences for their actions, but dangle rewards in their faces that make them tempted to risk those consequences. Give meaning to these interactions and encourage players to choose their own path. Let those raider ship kits and pirate paint jobs actually mean something.

once again, I'm not saying make criminal gameplay have no consequences, I'm saying give enough meaning and temptation behind the consequences that players want to risk those consequences instead of just throwing on punishment after punishment to a method of gameplay that is already dead and rotting in the ground and discouraging anybody from ever doing anything mean.
Interesting thing is, many mechanics/scenarios that could be added under the umbrella of criminal activities, could then be leveraged under military missions which are legal activity. eg: Smuggling and assasinations could be considered legal for military purposes?

I'd hope criminal activity would have little/nothing to do with the destruction of other CMDRs... BUT, I have no issue if there's specific missions, Open based CGs, or indeed specific Powerplay tasks, that assign a CMDR to destroy other CMDRs in a specific location (where then other players know there's a real risk), then that should be fine!
 
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