What Happend to the Dream?

I love how CQC keeps becoming bigger and bigger in your stories. CQC was part of 1.4, which came four months after 1.3. Read the patch notes here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/188174-CQC-Update-1-4\

The new ships are integrated in the main game, the main assets as well. The patch also included, among other things, higher-tiered RES and nav points, three more ships and new mission types, while they had a good part of the team working on 2.0 which launched just a few months later. This notion of 'if they hadnt done CQC the game would be AWESEOME now' is completely fabricated nonsense and you have been around way too long to spread such stuff. CQC is part of four months work of part of the team, and most 'new' parts of CQC were needed for the main game anyway. Those are facts. If you check the stats you'd notice loads of people are into powerplay, and I myself think Engineers expended the life of ED more than anything else for me.

If you could re-write it all just as:"I never liked anything at all that happened, and I hope something really super-drastic will happen!" then I think we can just skip to the inevitable conclusion: the game will continue to improve, and you will continue to be disappointed.

"Asteroid stations are just re-skinned different stations!"
Darn, and I thought they were going to be radically different! Instead asteroid stations are just stations in asteroids, who had thought that? Definitely a super valid reason to become angry and complain again, that doesnt look at all like you are looking for stuff to dislike. :)

I know, right?

I read the OP in its entirety - it really just comes down to basic respect, as if that person were standing in front of you, talking. Interrupting them, as such, by asking them to get to the point is rude, and disrespectful. In fact, it indicates that one is not listening at all, but rather just waiting to talk. The chances of actually gaining a new perspective on anything drop precipitously if one is not willing to listen, and consider another's point of view. On a related note, liberal use of the Ignore/Block functions (which should not exist here or in game), increases the chance of creating an echo-chamber, where very little that is new is allowed.

To the OP: Since you have stated that you don't play the game currently, and have not for months, I am very disinclined to care very much about what you think about the game, or what you want to see from it. Your opinions are completely valid, as they represent your experience, but I am more inclined to put weight on the opinions of those who are currently playing, and have been for the recent past, and less weight on those opinions that come from long-term customers, and even less for those who are sitting on the sidelines "until X." This is a very successful business model, by the way, as the customer life cycle is quite well known.

I disagree with your view on player ownership of anything other than our ships. I remember way back in the days of Everquest, where 1 or 2 guilds would end up running the server, and everyone else was effectively fighting to stay an expansion behind. Do you think that something similar would not happen here, if players had that kind of influence? That door really just should never be opened in this game.

I disagree with your viewpoints on PvP, as well. In most other (MMO) games that I have played, being on a PvP server means red=dead. A GM's response to complaints goes something along the lines of make some friends and hit back, go to another area, or go play on a PvE server. In terms of Elite, Open represents the PvP server, and the same rules should apply. PvP is almost never about a fair fight, it isn't about balance, and it shouldn't be. PvP is Commander vs. Commander, ship vs. ship, and the aggressor is going to try to make that as lopsided as possible. It's about winning, or making the other person lose (which is not necessarily the same thing). Other MMO's have their "Arena" for controlled and balanced PvP, and Elite has CQC, which serves the same purpose. If I were wrong about PvP, you would see a lot more participation in CQC, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and being able to use your own ships would not make CQC a more active feature of the game for very long.

Player-centric and Player-driven stories; this game is way too big for Frontier to reasonably provide that kind of experience. What you are looking for, comes from playing with other Commanders frequently, as opposed to playing on your own. Think back to other games that you have played, and the things that stay in your mind - chances are, it's not that time you killed that boss (or whatever), it was that time your friend popped his mount in the Oculus and jumped off the edge because he forgot you can't fly there. Or the time that same friend timed the raid's resurrection perfectly so that everyone popped in just as the boss respawned, and wiped everyone. The little moments shared with other Commanders are what build the narrative that you speak of, and they do it in a way that Frontier (or Blizzard, or Bioware) never could.

Power creep is inevitable, because that is the one thing that nearly all humans seek. More power (or growth/progression, as some like to call it) both in games, and in real life.

Engineers are no different than similar constructs in other games. Crafting, upgrading, farming reputations, it's all the same in other games, but for some reason, Frontier gets held to a different standard. Perhaps they just need to find a way for Engineering to lead to a known result (like Reverse Engineering from Star Wars Galaxies) would fix the issues people have with it. The ability to save a certain number of rolls to then combine into one blueprint that you can use in the future for any of the same type of module with only one set of mats per use sounds great to me. Put a goal at the end where the only RNG is when you decide to pull the trigger, and create that blueprint, and leave the rest as it is.

Dev focus - they said they were going to deliver certain specific things for Horizons, so they had to stay on that path. I do believe that the path changed somewhere in the middle, which caused the extended season, and I do believe that we are going to be happy about it later. Not yet, but later. That's just part speculation, and part reading between the lines (another form of speculation, as it were), though.

Riôt
 
When video games become too important in your life, that's when you write such wall of text, compensating something that no game developer can give to you. Get well soon.

You're suggesting, the OP considers a video game as "too important" simply for giving a point of view?

You're suggesting a mental illness? "Get well soon."

I'd suggest your post rings of needlessly scoring points against others. Maybe just don't post instead of making things personal?
 
You're suggesting, the OP considers a video game as "too important" simply for giving a point of view?

You're suggesting a mental illness? "Get well soon."

I'd suggest your post rings of needlessly scoring points against others. Maybe just don't post instead of making things personal?

Suggest what you want, but just because you didn't understand my post does not mean you need to put words in my mouth or that it gives you any right to stop me from expressing my opinion. It would've been ok had you asked if I would mean it the way you received the post and then being opposed, but that way... I am out of your game, sorry. Feel free to check my posts I am known to spread love for the game and community and my comment here has been a caring one. Some folks (as I feel it) invest more to ED than it may be healthy, serious concern on my side.
 
The OP was an Interesting read, agree with a lot of it, but its FD's game not mine so i live with what we have not what could have been.

Ohh I do wonder those posting about walls of text if they have ever read a book or the shear thought of somthing more than 5 sentences long makes them think the sky is falling.
 
Suggest what you want, but just because you didn't understand my post does not mean you need to put words in my mouth or that it gives you any right to stop me from expressing my opinion. It would've been ok had you asked if I would mean it the way you received the post and then being opposed, but that way... I am out of your game, sorry. Feel free to check my posts I am known to spread love for the game and community and my comment here has been a caring one. Some folks (as I feel it) invest more to ED than it may be healthy, serious concern on my side.
If you're intention was indeed positive, maybe, suggesting someone is in a questionable state of mind, while in truth knowing nothing about the individual in question, seems an odd way to go about things. ie: It's basically insulting them based on no real information/basis.

You made no attempt to address the OPs points, and instead seemed to just needlessly insult them.

Anyhow, let's put it down as a misunderstanding!?
 
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I know, right?

I read the OP in its entirety - it really just comes down to basic respect, as if that person were standing in front of you, talking. Interrupting them, as such, by asking them to get to the point is rude, and disrespectful. In fact, it indicates that one is not listening at all, but rather just waiting to talk. The chances of actually gaining a new perspective on anything drop precipitously if one is not willing to listen, and consider another's point of view. On a related note, liberal use of the Ignore/Block functions (which should not exist here or in game), increases the chance of creating an echo-chamber, where very little that is new is allowed.

To the OP: Since you have stated that you don't play the game currently, and have not for months, I am very disinclined to care very much about what you think about the game, or what you want to see from it. Your opinions are completely valid, as they represent your experience, but I am more inclined to put weight on the opinions of those who are currently playing, and have been for the recent past, and less weight on those opinions that come from long-term customers, and even less for those who are sitting on the sidelines "until X." This is a very successful business model, by the way, as the customer life cycle is quite well known.

I disagree with your view on player ownership of anything other than our ships. I remember way back in the days of Everquest, where 1 or 2 guilds would end up running the server, and everyone else was effectively fighting to stay an expansion behind. Do you think that something similar would not happen here, if players had that kind of influence? That door really just should never be opened in this game.

I disagree with your viewpoints on PvP, as well. In most other (MMO) games that I have played, being on a PvP server means red=dead. A GM's response to complaints goes something along the lines of make some friends and hit back, go to another area, or go play on a PvE server. In terms of Elite, Open represents the PvP server, and the same rules should apply. PvP is almost never about a fair fight, it isn't about balance, and it shouldn't be. PvP is Commander vs. Commander, ship vs. ship, and the aggressor is going to try to make that as lopsided as possible. It's about winning, or making the other person lose (which is not necessarily the same thing). Other MMO's have their "Arena" for controlled and balanced PvP, and Elite has CQC, which serves the same purpose. If I were wrong about PvP, you would see a lot more participation in CQC, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and being able to use your own ships would not make CQC a more active feature of the game for very long.

Player-centric and Player-driven stories; this game is way too big for Frontier to reasonably provide that kind of experience. What you are looking for, comes from playing with other Commanders frequently, as opposed to playing on your own. Think back to other games that you have played, and the things that stay in your mind - chances are, it's not that time you killed that boss (or whatever), it was that time your friend popped his mount in the Oculus and jumped off the edge because he forgot you can't fly there. Or the time that same friend timed the raid's resurrection perfectly so that everyone popped in just as the boss respawned, and wiped everyone. The little moments shared with other Commanders are what build the narrative that you speak of, and they do it in a way that Frontier (or Blizzard, or Bioware) never could.

Power creep is inevitable, because that is the one thing that nearly all humans seek. More power (or growth/progression, as some like to call it) both in games, and in real life.

Engineers are no different than similar constructs in other games. Crafting, upgrading, farming reputations, it's all the same in other games, but for some reason, Frontier gets held to a different standard. Perhaps they just need to find a way for Engineering to lead to a known result (like Reverse Engineering from Star Wars Galaxies) would fix the issues people have with it. The ability to save a certain number of rolls to then combine into one blueprint that you can use in the future for any of the same type of module with only one set of mats per use sounds great to me. Put a goal at the end where the only RNG is when you decide to pull the trigger, and create that blueprint, and leave the rest as it is.

Dev focus - they said they were going to deliver certain specific things for Horizons, so they had to stay on that path. I do believe that the path changed somewhere in the middle, which caused the extended season, and I do believe that we are going to be happy about it later. Not yet, but later. That's just part speculation, and part reading between the lines (another form of speculation, as it were), though.

Riôt

Well as I mentioned a little earlier I am not too keen to see player group ownership or anything. But I do think that some tools for people who want to set up player groups would be great. PG chat, PG identification maybe some tags, maybe some method of transferring modules to newer player or some such (although this opens exploit territory I think) just stuff to encourage the points that you mentioned later about the fun things being about the interaction with other players, and making it easier to access that for all. I think the game either needs the above or more player centric story arcs etc. As you pointed out that's rather unlikely.

I have to say that I disagree about your assessment that you need a "PvP server" where it's everything goes. I freely admit I'm no mmo expert, but all the mmo's I have personally played had zones within a single server where PvP was heavily discouraged and other zones where it was heavily encouraged rather than a PvP and PvE server. im fine with the comments about not fighting fair, but I'm not sure about the state,went on PvP not being about balance, balance is what makes different builds and loadouts interesting, otherwise the meta becomes stale and predictable.

As for engineers, I have no problem with crafting. I think it's more of a case as to how it was implemented and its effect on PvP combat in game which I think has gotten worse and not better, although that is of course completely subjective.

Anyway looks like we agree to disagree on most of these, thanks for the response.
 
I love ED, as far as it goes...but excluding engineers.

In terms of gameplay however, after 1,000 hours plus, I cannot see how FDev will increase interest if they do not address the points that players have been making for years - and FDev seem to be really bad at doing that.

If post-2.4 doesn't produce something really meaningful in terms of gameplay (maybe even borrowing from other games..atmos, player stations/outposts. etc) I really cannot see how what is essentially a 1980s style game czb go much further or survive much longer; even with the VR which, imo, is magnificent.
 
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If you're intention was indeed positive, maybe, suggesting someone is in a questionable state of mind, while in truth knowing nothing about the individual in question, seems an odd way to go about things. ie: It's basically insulting them based on no real information/basis.

You made no attempt to address the OPs points, instead seemed to just needlessly insult them.

Anyhow, let's put it down as a misunderstanding!?

I also read Kathryn Kando's comments the way you did and repped you for taking the sort of stance I was going to take on this when I got to the bottom of this thread. IRL I'm a happy go lucky guy will help virtually anyone, however cheap b*tchy comments and supercilious attitudes like hers really wrankle. If she really is the bastion of peace and love she pertains to be when you called her out on her snarky attitude towards the OP perhaps she ought to start proof reading her posts to see how it looks in black and white before clicking post.

It's threads like this that really make me hate these forums, they have oh so many, far too many, threads where great ideas, wisdom and intellect such as that shown by the OP and Mr.FailFactory get drowned out in a sea of narcissistic vitriolic snideyness as exemplified by the TL;DR I took a pop at earlier and ms Catty comments at the top of this page.

Newsflash darling - you are on this forum, you've presumably read the OP, you are in no position to comment how invested in this game anyone else is.
 
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Played 1700 hrs, I'm in the same boat as the OP.

By the way, good post Sidey, well formatted. "Text wall" lol? (They just don't want to read it).

Good points - diplomatically made.... and then about 2 pages in people were arguing about how many words someone can read in 15 minutes. The caliber of the intellectuals who play this game is astounding.

Perhaps I would be less dismissive of ED if its community was better.
 
Thats really fast! 27 words/s

It is fast isn't it? Incredibly so. Apparently top contestants at the The World Championship Speed Reading Competition read 1000 to 2000 words per minute, so it's at the upper end of that. Apparently it's difficult to maintain much more than 50% comprehension at that sort of speed though, even for those competitive speed readers.

Really makes you think.

..and then about 2 pages in people were arguing about how many words someone can read in 15 minutes.

There was no argument, I simply asked a question and made a comment based on the response. Someone reveals to you that they are one of the fastest readers in the world, and it should just pass without comment? Have you no curiosity?
 
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Some people here just don't understand the point of a forum do they.

Helpful hint: check out the original use of the word, by the Romans. (Or was it the Greeks...can't remember...) Then perhaps the egotistical bunch of people who seem to decide who and what can be classed as accepted forum posting might perhaps leave their unecessary post count increasing comments out of threads they can't even be bothered to read.

Op, I don't 100% agree with all your points.. but have rep anyway for putting effort into making them.
 
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Some do, some don't. You don't know the figures and neither do I so it's pointless speculation on who is holdingthe game together. I find that statement to be prettt arrogant to be honest.

so why say anything then? you only said it to shut down his idea of impact-full clan interaction, rattling the saber for the no's on clans .... shameful completely shameful
 
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Well as I mentioned a little earlier I am not too keen to see player group ownership or anything. But I do think that some tools for people who want to set up player groups would be great. PG chat, PG identification maybe some tags, maybe some method of transferring modules to newer player or some such (although this opens exploit territory I think) just stuff to encourage the points that you mentioned later about the fun things being about the interaction with other players, and making it easier to access that for all. I think the game either needs the above or more player centric story arcs etc. As you pointed out that's rather unlikely.

I have to say that I disagree about your assessment that you need a "PvP server" where it's everything goes. I freely admit I'm no mmo expert, but all the mmo's I have personally played had zones within a single server where PvP was heavily discouraged and other zones where it was heavily encouraged rather than a PvP and PvE server. im fine with the comments about not fighting fair, but I'm not sure about the state,went on PvP not being about balance, balance is what makes different builds and loadouts interesting, otherwise the meta becomes stale and predictable.

As for engineers, I have no problem with crafting. I think it's more of a case as to how it was implemented and its effect on PvP combat in game which I think has gotten worse and not better, although that is of course completely subjective.

Anyway looks like we agree to disagree on most of these, thanks for the response.

I would say that one of Frontier's highest priorities at this point in time (though it should have been from the beginning) is to find a way to promote Commander interaction, and doing things together in general. Ideally, they do this in such a way that isn't contrived (such as a Raid-type of encounter), but rather in a way that incorporates the day-to-day things that most of us do when playing the game. The real longevity for this kind of game comes from wanting to do things with friends, or those you have met in the game. I say this as someone who almost exclusively plays in my own PG, or Solo. I know that there are some that have absolutely no desire to ever encounter another Commander, so I am not in any way advocating the removal of either of those modes, but if Frontier promoted real Commander interaction well, it would be a huge boon to the game.

I have never been a fan of half-done PvP - it leads to anger, resentment, and support tickets. An environment where the expectations are known or advised (like Open currently) is really a much better way of handling it. I've said this before, and I'll say it again - if only 1% of the allegedly 40k members of Mobius were to take it upon themselves to fix Open, then it would be a different experience. Note that I am not saying that it is in any way Mobius' responsibility to do this, merely pointing out how relatively few people it would take to change the taste of Open over time. Add that number to those who PvP/Pirate without being murderhobos, and things will change in time. People keep asking for C&P, but in my opinion, that is a complete waste of development time - we the players could take care of this issue on our own, and we should. Some relative few do, but not enough.

I also think that there is some confusion regarding PvP in general on these forums - controlled PvP (Arenas, CQC, Battlegrounds, etc) are designed to be balanced based on gear, composition, or number of participants. There is also what's known in other games as World PvP (which happens out in the World, outside of these environments), and there is nothing balanced or fair about it. This is where ganking, griefing, mismatches, and other distasteful activities occur alongside reasonable encounters. What we have in Open is World PvP, and there should not be any expectation of balance outside of things that are obviously broken OP no matter what ship you are flying.

You had mentioned Time to Kill - this is something that every developer struggles with, and it is a multi-faceted problem. Compound this with the fact that in this game, you can actually make people miss, and there really isn't any way for Frontier to tune this to a degree that most PvP players would be happy with. They can, and should try, though.

Riôt
 
so why say anything then? you only said it to shut down his idea of impact-full clan interaction, rattling the saber for the no's on clans .... shameful completely shameful

I said it because I don't want to see clans and guilds in the game.

This is a forum for discussion and I am putting my point of view across. Or am I not allowed to have one on the forum?

Why is that shameful?
 
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MrFailFactory I think makes some excellent points. Properly enabling multiplayer is for me a key aspect that FD need to work on. Player factions need to be merged into Powerplay and the community goals, so the mechanism of community goals become faction goals and players factions effectively become powers. Open out the powerplay screens so player factions can nominate adjacent systems to undermine or systems to focus attention on.
 
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