Star Citizen Thread v6

[Tippis]

It was going to happen ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6WRLM3LbaY

I'm going to join the “old news” choir here. There were aimbots out for SC literally within a day of it hitting the live:ish servers. People pretty much just had to adapt existing years-old Crysis mods, which, seeing as how the underlying game is pretty much exactly the same and also has no protection whatsoever, made it surprising that it even took that long.

If I remember the videos making the rounds back then correctly, ESP is essentially built into the game — you just have to feed the right commands to the renderer. And the physics being the way they are, shooting through walls across the entire map requires almost no modification at all.

There is no middle ground in this genre: A well-crafted content-rich space experience full of lore to explore with a small scale MP attached? No, for every new contender it has to be a "whole universe" full of commandos, nothing less. A basic design choice limiting possible gameplay loops, quest design and forcing the ever on-going re-balancing nightmare.

Star Citizen fell in the same trap, starting with a reasonable proposal and then turning it into yet another space MMO. And MVPs is what you get as a result.

Pretty much, yeah. It was that notion that you could get both CDPR-level world detailing and plotting while also having an X³-sized universe that somehow got into everyone's heads even though one pretty much inherently excludes the other. You cannot algorithmically populate the latter with the former, and doing it by hand means your game is obsolete long before it ever has any chance of being out — doubly so if you start with such pointless ephemera as graphics as visuals.

The problem SC faces is that the two styles have very different, and even more incompatible MVPs. The open sandbox MVP sort of works if it's the exact same thing, spread over a bajillion different places that interact through some kind of world sim — it's the sim that makes it “minimally viable”. The storyline game requires the exact opposite: you can get by if it's just one location, but one that presents the myriad of story interactions that is required not to feel same:y. And MVP of a combination would require a ton of differing interactions in a ton of different places, at which point your MVP is pretty much the full game, which rather defeats the purpose.

For SC, in particular, I think that's where CIG has tripped up completely. Their talking about releasing an MVP is not a problem. Their not knowing, describing, arguing for, and possibly even understanding what it means to be minimally viable is what will screw them over. What feature set will be considered “viable” among a playerbase with such insanely diverse perception of what the game should be? And that's assuming they even deliver something that's not just a vertical slice — it's not like they have ever demonstrated anything remotely resembling a good grasp on even very basic and conventional software development terms. So what are the odds that they just equate “vertical slice” = “has a one, very specific, full(ish) game loop” = “viable, and at a really minimal level”.

 

[lysan]

I'm going to join the “old news” choir here. There were aimbots out for SC literally within a day of it hitting the live:ish servers. People pretty much just had to adapt existing years-old Crysis mods, which, seeing as how the underlying game is pretty much exactly the same and also has no protection whatsoever, made it surprising that it even took that long.

If I remember the videos making the rounds back then correctly, ESP is essentially built into the game — you just have to feed the right commands to the renderer. And the physics being the way they are, shooting through walls across the entire map requires almost no modification at all.

well, that is somehow comforting to hear

 

[Tippis]

Yes I know that. Can anybody point to what that commando was moaning about? I just saw a player who wasn't very good at what he was playing.

Look, just because you're paranoid does not mean they're not out to get you…


…of course, that could just be three decades of playing Shadowrun speaking.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

As I remember back then CIG only solution for cheats was permanent ban,as it seems seeing this "newish"video looks like up until now they didn´t even bother to FIX their own game and instead they will still stick with the perma-ban punishment......thats so LAME....

 

[Red Anders]

Sadly the 'media' probably won't .. yet.

What does MVP stand for again?

More valuable pictures.

Many vapid promises.

etc.

 

[AJW]

To be fair, I don't think that most developers would expect pre-alpha tech demos to be hack-proof. It really isn't a priority at that stage of development. You need to be thinking about it early on, but actual implementation is only going to be worthwhile when you have something more substantial (and more like the finished product) to work with.

Of course, if CIG really are going to release a '3.0 MVP', that is another matter, and they may well have a problem. But then they will have other problems too: starting I suspect with a queue of lawyers at the door....

 

[MTBFritz]

Yes I know that. Can anybody point to what that commando was moaning about? I just saw a player who wasn't very good at what he was playing.

pretty much this yeah but it always happens when people get outplayed because it simply cannot be themselves being so bad it must be others cheating.....logic

 

[Tippis]

To be fair, I don't think that most developers would expect pre-alpha tech demos to be hack-proof. It really isn't a priority at that stage of development. You need to be thinking about it early on, but actual implementation is only going to be worthwhile when you have something more substantial (and more like the finished product) to work with.

Of course, if CIG really are going to release a '3.0 MVP', that is another matter, and they may well have a problem. But then they will have other problems too: starting I suspect with a queue of lawyers at the door....

Also, funnily enough, you'd benefit from having people try to hack the game at that stage since that helps you with your hardening. What you probably don't want to do is ban those players and not have any input on the topic of what they're doing and why it works.

Guess what strategy CIG and the backers are advocating?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Also, funnily enough, you'd benefit from having people try to hack the game at that stage since that helps you with your hardening. What you probably don't want to do is ban those players and not have any input on the topic of what they're doing and why it works.

Guess what strategy CIG and the backers are advocating?

That is often true. But using pre-existing hacks in an alpha is just lame, not enlightening or helpful.

 

[Tippis]

That is often true. But using pre-existing hacks in an alpha is just lame, not enlightening or helpful.

True enough, I suppose, although I'd rather expect there to be pre-existing solutions for those that they could just get their hands on if they wanted to.

 

[1500]

If I remember the videos making the rounds back then correctly, ESP is essentially built into the game — you just have to feed the right commands to the renderer. And the physics being the way they are, shooting through walls across the entire map requires almost no modification at all.

When the "ESP" was first released, all you had to do was wiggle your joystick and the ship would auto track your target. For a while everyone was wiggling their joysticks and actually having fun. It is too bad that ended.

 

[Han Zulu]

These are the two extremes in the discussion: The completely out-of-whack ideas of everything simulators and the bare-bones MVPs, which get actually delivered.

I see two common mistakes: One is too much focus on multiplayer. And I see the reasons why: MP is the hype since the advent of the Internet. Especially veterans from the 8/16 bit era like the idea a lot, because they dreamed of it back then. The second is procedural generation as a measure to remedy the lack of actual content.

There is no middle ground in this genre: A well-crafted content-rich space experience full of lore to explore with a small scale MP attached? No, for every new contender it has to be a "whole universe" full of commandos, nothing less. A basic design choice limiting possible gameplay loops, quest design and forcing the ever on-going re-balancing nightmare.

Star Citizen fell in the same trap, starting with a reasonable proposal and then turning it into yet another space MMO. And MVPs is what you get as a result.

So true.

Somehow every space game today has to have pirates that you have to kill, and PvP shoot-em-up. Also, there isn't a space game without space pirates it seems like. For instance, NMS... why? Why these ' pirates showing up based on a clock? Every three minutes or whatever it is there will be pirates spawned. Only one thing missing in all these games, -zombies. Every games must have it. I'm longing for open world mystery, discovery, exploring based games. Games not based on shoot-them-all-up at ever corner. So tired of it. Actually, I got my shoot-em-up hunger satisfied years ago in games like Halo and Mass Effect. Now I just want to see the next generation of innovation and creativity. But not even $150m is enough to bring it about.

 

[lysan]

So true.

Somehow every space game today has to have pirates that you have to kill, and PvP shoot-em-up. Also, there isn't a space game without space pirates it seems like. For instance, NMS... why? Why these ' pirates showing up based on a clock? Every three minutes or whatever it is there will be pirates spawned. Only one thing missing in all these games, -zombies. Every games must have it. I'm longing for open world mystery, discovery, exploring based games. Games not based on shoot-them-all-up at ever corner. So tired of it. Actually, I got my shoot-em-up hunger satisfied years ago in games like Halo and Mass Effect. Now I just want to see the next generation of innovation and creativity. But not even $150m is enough to bring it about.

Maybe game designers need to think out of the box? there is a reason why movies and TV shows like Star Trek was so popular, not a whole lot of pew pew going on in them.

 

[Tippis]

Maybe game designers need to think out of the box? there is a reason why movies and TV shows like Star Trek was so popular, not a whole lot of pew pew going on in them.

But Star Wars was the biggest of them all, with plenty of pew-pew and a charming rogue at the centre of things — gotta have pew-pew and pirates or else… something something.

 

[Prince Thrakkath]

Maybe game designers need to think out of the box? there is a reason why movies and TV shows like Star Trek was so popular, not a whole lot of pew pew going on in them.

No way I need my Pew Pew!!!

 

[Han Zulu]

Maybe game designers need to think out of the box? there is a reason why movies and TV shows like Star Trek was so popular, not a whole lot of pew pew going on in them.

Exactly.

For instance, how about making a space racing game. Where you can map a racing track around stars, stations, asteroid belts, planets, etc, with flags/beacons, starting/ending spots, and more. This could be even added to ED in some smart ways. A person can be the organizer, setting up the track, add some extra features to the ships to help navigating the beacons, and so on.

Or, why not making a murder mystery kind'a game in space, with stations, NPCs you have to talk to, and all that. Need a bunch of clever story writers, and perhaps even add randomized paths to the story in it. Have to find some lost ship in a belt, and in the ship there are leads, etc.

Or, why not make all this part of some great, giant open-source? CiG could've actually created the greatest community game ever made with the money, and figured out ways of making money from selling assets (ships) for future income (which they're doing anyway), but then have had a multitude of players with expertise in both programming, story making, and asset creating.

And more...

But no... let's shoot pirates in space, and PvP. That's it. Following the set path is only a sign of laziness. Ingenuity requires a bit of stop-copy-everyone-else thinking.

 

[Han Zulu]

But Star Wars was the biggest of them all, with plenty of pew-pew and a charming rogue at the centre of things — gotta have pew-pew and pirates or else… something something.

It wasn't so much pew-pew in the old shows. Obviously there was some, but most of the time, during the golden ear of sci-fi, it was about cleverness. Solving problems smartly, not violently. Over time, movies have gone into the "beat them up" solving. Even Star Trek today is more about Die Hard solutions and car chases in space than being smart about it.

 

[Han Zulu]

No way I need my Pew Pew!!!

There are plenty of pew-pew games. I wish there were more of clever non-pew-pew games though, for people like me.

 

[Tippis]

There are plenty of pew-pew games. I wish there were more of clever non-pew-pew games though, for people like me.

Maybe there's some kind of theme ↔ aesthetic ↔ gameplay interdependence at play here. While I think it's hard to fully separate space from, say, pew-pew or exploration — that's been a winning combo since the 1800:s — maybe there are some game types that simply don't do well in that environment, whereas others do, and until that has been explored by “someone else, definitely not our company”, game companies will keep going for the combinations they know work.

For instance, Call of Cthulhu is a popular property and it has been adapted in all kinds of forms and mediums. As far as games go, though, the really good CoC games only exist in the…

…drumroll…

…hidden object game genre, of all things. :S
No idea why. They just work there, and are pretty universally horrible everywhere else. Maybe it's that fundamental motif of helplessness and hopelessness in the source material that doesn't transfer well to the regular power-fantasy genres, whereas the methodical puzzling interspersed with some frantic timed puzzles really fit with what's going on in the books.

So what are the limitations of space as a narrative backdrop, and why haven't the boundaries been pushed? Or, more worryingly, since SC is continents away from any kind of boundary worth pushing and is on the brink of failure even within the very safe realm of what everyone is always doing in space, will anyone ever dare experiment any further?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Exactly.

For instance, how about making a space racing game. Where you can map a racing track around stars, stations, asteroid belts, planets, etc, with flags/beacons, starting/ending spots, and more. This could be even added to ED in some smart ways. A person can be the organizer, setting up the track, add some extra features to the ships to help navigating the beacons, and so on.

Or, why not making a murder mystery kind'a game in space, with stations, NPCs you have to talk to, and all that. Need a bunch of clever story writers, and perhaps even add randomized paths to the story in it. Have to find some lost ship in a belt, and in the ship there are leads, etc.

Or, why not make all this part of some great, giant open-source? CiG could've actually created the greatest community game ever made with the money, and figured out ways of making money from selling assets (ships) for future income (which they're doing anyway), but then have had a multitude of players with expertise in both programming, story making, and asset creating.

And more...

But no... let's shoot pirates in space, and PvP. That's it. Following the set path is only a sign of laziness. Ingenuity requires a bit of stop-copy-everyone-else thinking.

Didnt SC have that city-race thing?