Modes WOW CGs in open have got really toxic haven't they!

[Snarfbuckle]

When I first heard about this seal clubbing I thought that it would be really cool if a couple of wings of max out vettes could come in and take them on. But then I realized that the probable outcome of that would be the same as some punk/bully being challenged on even ground: They would run. Cowards are like that.

Which is actually a non-issue.

These encounters are never gonna be about an even match or honourable duel. It's about one side attempting a stomp and the other to either get away or be able to fight.

The main issue is that in-game law enforcement CANNOT be delegated to players because it would in many cases be arbitrary or a skewed focus or merely a cops n robbers PVP fest but lacking any depth of added gameplay.

What is needed is that regardless of action there are equal consequences and currently System Security status, criminal system and the possible gameplay mechanics are completely absent.

- bounties are useless since people do not really care about them so they should be changed.
- add bounties to rebuy values
- have an active WANTED status (Regardless of location and jurisdiction) be a hindrance in everyday life depending on system security status.
- Long term effects should instead play a part like loosing a LOT of reputation with ruling factions in a system when doing crimes there
- Stations should really scan incoming CMDR ships and their ID's for criminal activity and any visible WANTED sign on a CMDR should block them from even landing on a larger station. Especially if the station is controlled by a ruling faction.

 

[NeilF]

If this thread is about some of the PvPers I know that are blockading the CG then no. They would not run. Bring all the firepower you've got and you'll see them fight to the death. However, it is more likely that any who tries to stop them will be the ones biting the grass and/or running away.

About three years ago, back in Beta, there was only one combat zone (in Eranin). It was the goto place for PvP.

A guy in an anaconda was dishing out damage and I had to run away to the fringe of the zone. In my scanner a bunch of dots appeared, which as a I got closer resolved to half a dozen empty squares. As I got closer still it was a group of CMDRs all in Vipers forming up into a large wing. They boosted past me heading back towards the battle. I turned to following and watched as they rushed in to all attack the Anaconda in unison.

On the back of the FD promo-video of the capital ship battle I looked forwards to the rich PvP that was seemingly on the way. Interesting combat missions where CMDRs could work togethor for/against a cause...

....Jump forwards three years, and here we are discussing CMDRs simply working against a CG - in truth with no care for what it's about - by sitting 100ft outside a station and shooting at any CMDRs coming in/out.

Really? REALLY? Is this all we can hope for with PvP? THREE YEARS ON!

 

[kofeyh]

Can you imagine when such a C&P (Karma) mechanic is in place?

What good are these, if they are unenforceable? Also why should wiping out thirty cops (who die) somehow be less morally objectionable than shooting three commanders? (who only face rebuy). It doesn't matter what the consequences are, if they are unenforceable. Anarchy systems won't care what you do elsewhere, stations will remain happy to serve.

Anarchy systems should care if you thump any station controlling factions, perhaps, but they should not care what you do elsewhere, or what you do to anyone else, be it another faction, or player alike. The solution isn't to turn Anarchy into medium security, it's to police the crime in the jurisdiction it's occurring in, at the time it's occurring.

It's all a vapid shambles, because the developer is terrified of (genuinely) holding commanders accountable. Any time they try to redress the balance, the sky starts falling and they have to wind it all back. And the best we get is a belated commander-only bounty, which is still just as effective as the existing, because it's not actually solving anyone's concern. It's all just endless ambulances at the bottom of endless cliffs.

There are tools already, to solve this; the methodology has never been the issue.

--

Back on topic, the developer does communicate risks in CG missions. But the game simply does not prosecute crime in a timely fashion, and rewards asymmetric fighting - because this is optimal for PVE farming, just as it is for PVP.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Yeah, they do. The developer has just added a commander only bounty system, and when questioned as to why this wasn't pushed to PVE as well, then no of course not because that would induce consequence and AI don't matter. They do if you want them to prosecute crime, though.

So which is it? They can't be both. Either they matter, and security forces are effective, and laws are consistent, and people end up being held accountable (that's the bit where it comes unstuck, by the way) - or they don't and the status quo remains. You can only pick one. Choose wisely.

The thing is, the fact that the Pilots Federation bounty doesn't apply to crimes against NPCs is entirely consistent with how they designed the C&P system in the first place, and was present in the original DDF proposal. None of the major powers (Federation, Empire, Alliance, Pilots Federation) care about what happens to anyone except for their own people, and the Pilots Federation counts smugglers, pirates, assassins, terrorists, and con artists as members in good standing.

In fact, IMO the Pilots Federation is actively assisting them, first by providing a bulliten board that the authorities apparently can't use to set up sting operations. Since the PF also manages the bounty system, and bounties go dormant after a week, I take this as more evidence of the PFs "members first, even criminal ones," policy.

Do I want a more robust C&P system, especially in regards to the NPC side of things? Absolutely. I think it's rediculous that I can actively work against the Federation, and be still be fed the fatted calf when I visit a Federation station, unless I went on a murder spree in the last week (which is something I only did once, honest!).

But I very much expect to be heralded as a hero in the Empire if I were strike a blow against the Evil Galactic Federation, and I expect the Pilots Federation not to care... unless I were to violate Pilots Federation's policies by attacking a non-involved Commander. At the present time, involved Commanders include those pledged to an opposing faction in an acknowledged combat zone, and those actively pledged to a Power.

 

[Darkfyre99]

What good are these, if they are unenforceable? Also why should wiping out thirty cops (who die) somehow be less morally objectionable than shooting three commanders? (who only face rebuy). It doesn't matter what the consequences are, if they are unenforceable. Anarchy systems won't care what you do elsewhere, stations will remain happy to serve.

Since the forum was briefly down, I'll just address address this point, briefly.

In any GOOD karma system, once that is more nuanced than a measure of how "good" or "evil" you are, what you do SHOULD bring consequences. Individual NPCs should be capable of nuanced responses. In the example you provided above, the Pilots Federation wouldn't care what you do to the police, but the police across the galaxy would. Getting a reputation as a cop killer should modify the response of police. At best, the police of factions you're allied with might come across as passive aggressive. At worst, the phrase disproportionate response comes to mind, like using the fact that someone's speeding as an excuse to open fire.

In addition, criminals might respond to you like "We don't need your brand of crazy here," while anarchists might think you're doing a good thing.

While I doubt the first iteration of the karma system will be this nuanced, I'm hoping that it isn't one dimensional.

 

[NeilF]

What good are these, if they are unenforceable?

Unenforceable how? If I act like a psycho in any sort of system, the Pilots Federation (& Insurance companies) surely wouldn't ignore this? If the outcome is more and more stations deny me access? More and more systems deny me a permit? And other CMDRs see a nice symbol on their scanners for "beware of this psycho", that all seems measured and enforcable to me.

Also why should wiping out thirty cops (who die) somehow be less morally objectionable than shooting three commanders? (who only face rebuy).

Personally I'd like to see the illegal destruction of NPCs treated the same as other CMDRs. Unless there's a real gameplay reason for not doing so. ie: Even if I act like a psycho in SOLO, there will be ramifications...

Anarchy systems won't care what you do elsewhere, stations will remain happy to serve.

Probably...

 

[ZeroAi]

Back to the game after a long layoff and thought I would try the CG at Maia. Was getting a bit bored in Mobius so decided to ship my cheap Cobra over and see what all the fuss was about in open. Not making that mistake again! Not a rant, as I was well aware of the risks of open but not sure why anyone would want to run the gauntlet of engineered PVP builds who sit there taking out unarmed Cobras!

Lesson learned and thanks to Mobius for providing a safe haven!

Thanks for the update! +Rep

Not surprised that even in an unarmed beginners ship like the Cobra MKIII you we're instant cannon fodder in Open at the CG.

While most online openworld games solve that problem with PvE only areas, I happy that Elite gives us PG's and Solo.

I'm also very thankful for Mobius, nice to have an open-like PvE option ;-)

 

[CMDR Greg Wayne]

are you one of said blockaders? if so out of curiosity how would you feel about some of the suggestions in this thread? would you be ok with the RP of if the CG succeeds you are not allowed any anti thargoid gear for a few months due to trying to stop the CG from succeeding?
(I ask because if the players involved in this sort of thing are happy to go all in on the RP and are not just doing it for pew pew jollies against weaker players, then, there really is no downside to FD implementing proper consequences.)

This time around I am not, but I have been in a few other cases. However, I am definitely all for your suggestions because that is truly what creates interesting stories. Having "safe" havens for criminals and being an outcast in most high-sec systems would be a dream come true in my eyes. Right now the PvP is quite shallow, sadly. I enjoy the proper wing fights, the flight model and the complexity of this game (but not seal-clubbing mind you) so the outlines are all there. Now FDev need to give us a purpose.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

Genuine question, because I quite like the adrenaline rush of open, how can one make a Cobra that is capable of surviving a station blockade in open without resorting to engineers?

Simple. When you see a station blockade, jump out again and login to solo. Block the griefers who are blockading the station, and then log back into Open.

You can't survive a proper griefer blockade in Open unless they WANT you to survive. Chances are that if you do survive it's because they didn't want to waste mines/torps on you or they were blockading a bigger, juicier target. Your bays are full of cargo and not HRPs or MRPs and your ship is sluggish and heavily laden, so hoping to win whilst in a trade ship, outnumbered 3-to-1 or more against dedicated, engineered-for-PVP murder hobos is foolish

 

[Ian Skippy]

It's all a vapid shambles, because the developer is terrified of (genuinely) holding commanders accountable.

And that is because we hate to be held accountable. Yes, us, the community. For every "Its not fair, this guy killed me, where were the cops!" you have a "Its not fair, the cops killed me and I only shot one in the face for a bit!" post. The implicit ideal held by many here is a C&P system that punishes other people.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Simple. When you see a station blockade, jump out again and login to solo. Block the griefers who are blockading the station, and then log back into Open.

You can't survive a proper griefer blockade in Open unless they WANT you to survive. Chances are that if you do survive it's because they didn't want to waste mines/torps on you or they were blockading a bigger, juicier target. Your bays are full of cargo and not HRPs or MRPs and your ship is sluggish and heavily laden, so hoping to win whilst in a trade ship, outnumbered 3-to-1 or more against dedicated, engineered-for-PVP murder hobos is foolish

The blockade I saw at Obsidian Orbital yesterday was incredibly effective. Especially their ability to melt ships trying to jump out. I observed from the landing pad for a while and decided my averagely engineered Type-7 had no chance whatsoever.

I did briefly consider adding them all to my block list, but didn't. I see these players in Open at other times and I usually do have a chance at survival if I fly smart: I decided I didn't want to take action that meant I never see them again. The only smart option if I stayed in Open and didn't block was not to fly. But I wanted to fly and take part in the CG so I just logged into Mobius instead. Had a nice chilled evening winged up with another Commander, hauling goods and shooting the breeze. Took me a while to remember that I could swap out my shields for another cargo rack and improve haulage capacity.

I've nothing against the players doing the blockade; they are playing completely within the game rules. It does seem dumb though that a station, where I am allied and they are requesting my services, will do nothing to protect me. Still, we all have options that allow us to tailor our game experience: I chose to swap game mode, others might use block, it's all legitimate.

 

[Ozram]

Simple. When you see a station blockade, jump out again and login to solo. Block the griefers who are blockading the station, and then log back into Open.

You can't survive a proper griefer blockade in Open unless they WANT you to survive. Chances are that if you do survive it's because they didn't want to waste mines/torps on you or they were blockading a bigger, juicier target. Your bays are full of cargo and not HRPs or MRPs and your ship is sluggish and heavily laden, so hoping to win whilst in a trade ship, outnumbered 3-to-1 or more against dedicated, engineered-for-PVP murder hobos is foolish

Saw this yesterday:
[video=youtube_share;0ZEIOZzcds4]https://youtu.be/0ZEIOZzcds4[/video]

 

[Sneake Llama]

People go there sometimes because pew pew is guaranteed! I know several players that go for the sole purpose just to pew. They are not "griefing", as they usually let everyone live, unless their targets are jerks and name-calling about the whole thing. THey don't prowl on type-6's or anything like that. They just like PvP and they like pewing with other pewers that want to have gentleman pews.

 

[XW_Ziggy]

Saw this yesterday:

Yeah, as I said - they didn't want to waste torpedos on you or they were just messing around for opportunistic fights rather than a proper blockade. It's not a proper blockade if they don't have shield-stripping RC torps/mines because that's the only reasonably successful way to stop a shield tank in time before it covers the short 8km to the mailslot.

 

[Ozram]

Yeah, as I said - they didn't want to waste torpedos on you or they were just messing around for opportunistic fights rather than a proper blockade. It's not a proper blockade if they don't have shield-stripping RC torps/mines because that's the only reasonably successful way to stop a shield tank in time before it covers the short 8km to the mailslot.

Blockade running used to be one of my favourite pastimes. Stealth can be effective in that regard (and white knuckle risky).

 

[Tikigod]

People go there sometimes because pew pew is guaranteed! I know several players that go for the sole purpose just to pew. They are not "griefing", as they usually let everyone live, unless their targets are jerks and name-calling about the whole thing. THey don't prowl on type-6's or anything like that. They just like PvP and they like pewing with other pewers that want to have gentleman pews.

Reminds me of the week I spent pulling pilots out of supercruise in a random system I was working from at the time and telling them I was just scanning for any signs they were wanted by Federation-allied groups, and if not then no harm would come of them.

Every single one of the players I pulled out, opened fire on me immediately.... most I let jump out after giving them a bit of a beating, but 3 individuals just kept fighting even when I got them to under 10% hull. Told each of them to stop or they'd be destroyed and that I was simply scanning for if they'd committed any crimes against the Federation (They hadn't). But nope. They wanted to be blown to pieces it seems.

One of them later then called me a toxic griefer.

 

[Tikigod]

Blockade running used to be one of my favourite pastimes. Stealth can be effective in that regard (and white knuckle risky).

I think perhaps the tutorial/training scenarios could do with a stealth/blockade running example, as it seems a lot of players think that the only option to try get by a blockade is to boost spam and jump if they're leaving, or boost rush the dock.

It strikes me as even more silly when people are on planets and try to get away from aggressive campers by boosting right at the blockaders waiting above and hoping they can rush the jump out... there's an entire planets surface leading off in all directions. Do you really think every blockader is going to run off chasing you >50-100km away from the planet outpost they're trying to blockade? No. Maybe 2 or 3 will follow which then gives you the proper chance to attempt an charge up out of there once you've broken away from not being fired at by the entire blob.

 

[Ozram]

I think perhaps the tutorial/training scenarios could do with a stealth/blockade running example, as it seems a lot of players think that the only option to try get by a blockade is to boost spam and jump if they're leaving, or boost rush the dock.

It strikes me as even more silly when people are on planets and try to get away from aggressive campers by boosting right at the blockaders waiting above and hoping they can rush the jump out... there's an entire planets surface leading off in all directions. Do you really think every blockader is going to run off chasing you >50-100km away from the planet outpost they're trying to blockade? No. Maybe 2 or 3 will follow which then gives you the proper chance to attempt an charge up out of there once you've broken away from not being fired at by the entire blob.

Yep. Gameplay requiring actually using the brain to get around people... the best sort and yet largely ignored.
Oh look and heavy force blockade, let me run head on into them! Mah, the gweefahs didn't let me through whaah whyeee!
I mean, if you can tank it and you've sussed them out and they're not using torps, sure (like vid I posted) but otherwise there are other ways in. As the saying goes, "There's more than one way to skin a cat".

 

[Old Duck]

One of them later then called me a toxic griefer.

One of my CMDRs has received similar comms for partaking in legitimate PowerPlay with enemy CMDRs. I'm amazed at all the people who sign up for PP and yet seem to have no idea what that actually entails.

BTW, there is PP to be done at the Maia CG (not sure about the other). My CMDR who is loyal to Arissa is raking in the merits at Obsidian Orbital.

 

[kofeyh]

And that is because we hate to be held accountable. Yes, us, the community. For every "Its not fair, this guy killed me, where were the cops!" you have a "Its not fair, the cops killed me and I only shot one in the face for a bit!" post. The implicit ideal held by many here is a C&P system that punishes other people.

In short? Yes. Frontier is under pressure to make sure it's always the 'other commander what done it, bad egg that one, what what' who gets it in the neck. This implicitly cannot work, because it's a broken concept. The pilot's federation bounty would make more sense if it was actually enforceable; but it's no less of a problem than a standard bounty. Any karma system is also, essentially, just as redundant if it's not enforceable.

I'm pretty sure Sandro has onboarded the situation with AI being completely unable to enforce law (even stations can struggle against some of the truly ripped pvp ships out there). There's been a massive power creep, and the AI are simply not up to the task.

The thargoids will be a diversion at best, before PVP folks are back to endlessly popping ships rocking tiny shields and no armour, with even more devastating weapons, with an even greater power disparity, and we're back to why is law enforcement, not enforcing the law. Because the game sends two eagles and an unengineered anaconda to hunt down miscreants who have at least a 4-1 advantage in damage output and resilience.