And, the original Heat problem wasn't just with cannon. It was with any weapon that could have thermal shock applied. This issue was under review, and a planned change well before the bois got all seasoned. By the time the event got underway, the fix was on it's way.
And, the original Heat problem wasn't just with cannon. It was with any weapon that could have thermal shock applied. This issue was under review, and a planned change well before the bois got all seasoned. By the time the event got underway, the fix was on it's way.
What I meant by that is that there was no other FDL build that could fight the Rail-de-Lance, so you had to fly it or die.
I get ya. I remember the closest thing to a counter was a speedy Clipper. I always thought the real counter to the R-d-L was not being able to aim the Rails. Breakfastmelon tried any number of times to get me up to speed, but it wasn't to be. Then they put me in the Clipper to chase, and mass lag an escaping foe. I can fly straight, so I found my niche.
Yup, I can't remember the 2.X.X for the Combat Balance Pass, but one of the main reasons for it was to test and tame the then current Heat Meta. That's the point when most of the heat issues were addressed. I have to wonder if the cannon thing remained because they were in such serious disfavor at the time, that likely no one tested them in that beta.
Just a thought: maybe don't tell me to "let it go, it worked" if you don't even know what the issue was with heat cannons. At this point, you're arguing for the sake of argument, not because you know what you're talking about.
Thermal SHOCK applies heat to both shields and hull, and exists for lasers/multicannons. Before yesterday, this had been fixed since just after Spicybois 1.0. There are no issues with it that are known to me, and it is considered balanced, at this point.
Thermal CASCADE applies a huge heat spike to shields only, and can be applied to missiles and cannons. This was the main culprit with Spicybois 1.0, though thermal shock was also an issue. FDev "nerfed" heat by putting a soft cap on how much it would spike you, but it was apparently tied to damage, and since most people used it on missiles, the damage per shot was very low, so no one noticed it. Then everyone figured out that a huge OC cannon does way more damage and if you put cascade on it, it'll spike a ship to 140-200% heat. This became an issue in January/February and has persisted until yesterday.
The fix from FDev is that heat will not push you over 95% heat by itself. Anything beyond 95% is your own doing (boosting/firing). This was extensively tested in beta by pretty much any PvPer that had access.
So, as of now, it is "fixed". There may be an edge case that might still be broken, but it's unknown right now.
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It was an oversight with their fix. They intended on having a soft cap on heat that could be bypassed, but they forgot that the heat applied was in direct proportion to the damage dealt. This let it spike WAY beyond where they intended.
The whole saga could fill its own book but it went like this:
Beta 2.1 - 8,000% plus heat. Toned down two or three times in Beta.
Live 2.1 - thermal shock (Retributors, lasers, multis) already near useless except for harassment. Thermal cascade (packhounds especially, missiles, cannons) crazy OP.
2.2 - Supposed thermal cascade nerf via introduction of cap (at first 95%, then raised to 100% in Beta).
2.2 to 2.4 - Cap wrongly implemented so that the spikes caused by thermal cascade (thermal shock can't really spike, too slow) completely exceed the cap. Cannons to some extent now better than missiles (reversing 2.1 position) because their RoF means the cap goes completely out of the window.
I'm afraid that in short, the code put in place in 2.2 simply didn't do what it was supposed to do - impose a cap on weapon-induced heat - as Frontier tacitly recognised this Beta.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Ryan. Yes, RoF 'and damage'.
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Well put. Any game with competition and customisable loadouts should expect balancing passes almost continually, especially if you actually want new content as you go. In this case though I'mma call FD out as gluttons for punishment; the various mods and effects didn't even try to start off balanced, and to get essential balance passes implemented has taken - in some cases - months of pushing.
Respect to Ryan's god roll thread, and it also demonstrates a few simple cases of how strongly secondary effects affect your win chances. Anyone hoping to get into unplanned PvP duels will either do so not knowing their G5 ship is hideously outmatched in sheer numbers, or has spent days to weeks constructing a single viable build - one that could still get creamed uncontrollably if the great luck of the universe puts your "rock" ship against a "paper" ship.
'tis all very gloom and doom, but it would be nice to think talented pilots could jump into PvP off the back of that talent alone as opposed to how much time they have to grind. I've said it enough now that I sound like a parrot, but I'd be happy to see secondary effects go; take a layer of RNG out, make mods do what they're supposed to do only, substantially reduce the ability to spend sheer time over-developing your ship.
EDIT: sorry for dragging this further off topic, OP - if it's any consolation, included in the balance changes we still need to see is some leveling between gimballed and fixed weapons. Currently gimballed is advantageous over fixed technically and is immensely easier to use; it'd be good to see them revisit plans to link gimbal effectiveness against sensor grade, with a reasonable offset to higher sensors such as a relevant power draw.
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Gimballs weren't nerfed, so much as fixed were buffed. I believe that was with 2.3. All fixed weapons got a DPS boost, and/or travel speed buff. Fixed weapon with ammo, also got a serious buff to ammo capacity. At the same time as the changes to fixed weapons were being buffed, there was a conversation and testing done on limiting the firing arc of gimballs, and/or connecting the Sensors Module to the effectiveness of gimbals aim. In the end, FD decided the buff to fixed was enough, and the nerf to gimbals was dropped.
See, this is correctly recalled ^
It also didn't "nerf gimbals into the ground". They still hold an advantage over fixed for almost all combat.
I wouldn't say that. Gimballed weapons have a direct counter to their effectiveness, that coupled with the buffs to fixed weapons, should bring parity. Making gimballed weapons less effective than fixed shouldn't be a goal. Parity or balance is preferable. No one is trying to break seeker missiles ability to lock on, there is no difference to that and gimbals. Players pay a great deal over the cost of fixed weapons to fit them.
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Wait, credits are relevant?
Gimbals do have an advantage over fixed typically. They should be balanced, but since when was something actually balanced because it should be? Once chaff is out the picture, gimballed weapons do quite a lot to allow for much greater freedom of movement while remaining on target.
Even from a standalone perspective I'd attest to them compensating a little too much. As long as the firing line isn't physically blocked by the ship, they have a pretty ridonkulous aiming arc. That's why I loved the sensor idea; if you want that level of tracking it should present you with an offset, even if the mass/power draw of A-rated sensors are at the present stage relatively inconsequential.
Wait, credits are relevant?
Gimbals do have an advantage over fixed typically. They should be balanced, but since when was something actually balanced because it should be? Once chaff is out the picture, gimballed weapons do quite a lot to allow for much greater freedom of movement while remaining on target.
Even from a standalone perspective I'd attest to them compensating a little too much. As long as the firing line isn't physically blocked by the ship, they have a pretty ridonkulous aiming arc. That's why I loved the sensor idea; if you want that level of tracking it should present you with an offset, even if the mass/power draw of A-rated sensors are at the present stage relatively inconsequential.
Then everyone using gimbals will just fit A-rated sensors, and we are back to square one. Why, with all of the buffs fixed weapons have gotten, do we still need to nerf gimballs? Fixed have every advantage except ToT. With chaff, I feel there is parity between the weapon types? Gimballed weapons also have a higher power draw as well. The trade-offs are already there, there's no need to make fixed supreme, just even, and that's where we are.
Then this is where we disagree; for PvE, or for 1v1 duels, I've always found gimballed wins out - despite fixed being a whole lot more fun.
No point debating it as we'll just do the merry-go-round. I do agree that it presents an issue with everyone flocking to A-rated sensors, but a) the sensors could have a reasonable offset and b) in any case, I don't claim to have all the answers
Then this is where we disagree; for PvE, or for 1v1 duels, I've always found gimballed wins out - despite fixed being a whole lot more fun.
No point debating it as we'll just do the merry-go-round. I do agree that it presents an issue with everyone flocking to A-rated sensors, but a) the sensors could have a reasonable offset and b) in any case, I don't claim to have all the answers
Right on. The idea with the buffs to Fixed was to make them more attractive and see more player fitting them. It would be interesting to see if there has been any shift in outfitting.
I for one need gimballs for my fighting style. My FAS would be forced to eat a lot of damage I avoid now if the arc was restricted very much. It would likely force me back into a Vulture, or, heaven forbid, an FdL for the shield strength. Lets no see that happen, ok?
The powerfull dps weapons such as rails and PAs are fixed only, if you want to use gimbals for PVP lasers and MCs are very low dps weapons and completely countered with chaffs, the only gimbals that dont suffer almost any counter (except LR weapons) are frags. Speaking of the FAS I dont think you can put anything except PAs Rails or frags on it and produce enough damage in PVP.
It's impossible to discuss fixed v gimballed and whether the balance is skewed without taking proper account of two factors:
1. Gimbals are not, as so often supposed, assisted-aim fixed.
2. Hit point inflation.
What I mean by point 1 is that because gimbals move independently of the ship, their advantages often cannot be replicated, by anyone.
Example: I boost towards my left. Opponent then boosts towards my right. In many ships, the yaw rate of the nose of the ship itself, with or without FA-off, is so vastly inferior to the gimbal mount's yaw rate that it is impossible, irrespective of skill - simply impossible, via maximum motion rates - for a fixed multi to approach the tracking of a gimballed multi.
It would only be possible if Outfitting sold a fourth option: 'aim your own gimbals'. This currently only exists in crude form via turreted multi-pew. But it would be impractical anyway, without four hands/eyes, whilst also controlling the ship.
By point 2 I am of course referring (again) to 1v1 chaff exhaustion via 2.1 hit point inflation.
Different weapons suffer different degrees of imbalance. But taking the most popular example, the multi-cannon, so long as hit points, shot speed and ship speed remain as they are, I think that fixed DPS would need to be about double gimballed DPS to make a serious 1v1 balanced.
1. Gimbals are not, as so often supposed, assisted-aim fixed.
2. Hit point inflation.
What I mean by point 1 is that because gimbals move independently of the ship, their advantages often cannot be replicated, by anyone.
Example: I boost towards my left. Opponent then boosts towards my right. In many ships, the yaw rate of the nose of the ship itself, with or without FA-off, is so vastly inferior to the gimbal mount's yaw rate that it is impossible, irrespective of skill - simply impossible, via maximum motion rates - for a fixed multi to approach the tracking of a gimballed multi.
It would only be possible if Outfitting sold a fourth option: 'aim your own gimbals'. This currently only exists in crude form via turreted multi-pew. But it would be impractical anyway, without four hands/eyes, whilst also controlling the ship.
By point 2 I am of course referring (again) to 1v1 chaff exhaustion via 2.1 hit point inflation.
Different weapons suffer different degrees of imbalance. But taking the most popular example, the multi-cannon, so long as hit points, shot speed and ship speed remain as they are, I think that fixed DPS would need to be about double gimballed DPS to make a serious 1v1 balanced.
The direct counter runs out wayyyyyyyy before the fight is over due to shields in the current meta, so that counter isn't very effective 1v1. High-skill loadouts should beat low-skill loadouts, all things being equal. Problem is, right now gimbals win in 1v1s and are CONSIDERABLY lower skill when compared to fixed weapons.
There definitely needs to be another balance pass for fixed vs. gimbals because the additional damage granted during the last pass doesn't even come close to bringing them to parity in 1v1s.