Alien archaeology and other mysteries: Breaking News, Theories and Tinfoil Hattery

I've been hyperdicted my last 3 jumps into Maia. 2 before the patch and 1 after. At least 2 of those were from different originating systems.

Anyone else seeing the same?

Thargoids did attack me after the patch (carrying Thargoid Probe).
 
Both the player journal logs and the stats panel refer to the Interceptor as a scout too. It must be their internal name for the ship. It may have been re-named to sound cooler, or to make room from the newly discovered craftOld pre-2.3 spoilers:
It was referred to as the Scout in the game files from the time the crash sites showed up.
I said that too but everyone disregarded what i said :p
 
But the guardians are dead thousands of years before our time.....which still leaves it open for us being descendants of a somewhat keep the race going somehow idea, our evolution is still just theory to this day...for all we know in real life we could be the descendant of an alien race........
Ok, I think this needs a considered response and I'm not 100% sure where to pitch this so please forgive me (you and anyone else reading) if this slips either into partronisingly simple or way too esoteric.

So the first thing to cover is the word 'Theory'. I might be wrong here, but you seem to be using it as though it means 'idea'. That's not what 'Theory' means in 'Theory of evolution' or similar scientific theories.

The theory of evolution is based on a incredibly huge amount of evidence. As a whole it's not really in any credible doubt. Most of the doubt cast on it is just misconceptions and deliberate misportrayals of the situation. I'm saying this whole bit specifically because the 'it's just a theory' thing is one of those misconceptions / misportrayals that gets spread around far too much.

So, consider the following:
- every vertebrate embryo on Earth has the same form at early stages of development (human embryos have tails until about 7 weeks.)
- all vertebrates on Earth share the same basic body structure. That structure goes back to before vertebrate animals emerged from the sea. This is more than 400 million years ago. (snakes differ in that they have no arms and legs, but the genes responsible have been identified, and its origin traced to approx 150 million years ago.)

Those are just basic structural points.

There's then cellular comparisons, where the commonalities between vertebrates and other animals become apparent, then plants, fungi and so on further and further back until things reach the point of the origin of Eukaryotes - cells which have internal structures enclosed by their own membranes (cell nuclei, mitochondria, etc.) - from Prokaroytes - simple single cells that don't have internal memebrane-enclosed structures. Under the Eukaryotic line there are all animals, all plants, fungi, and various other groups of organisms. Under the Prokaryotic line there are Bacteria and Archaea.

The origins of Eukaryotes is traced to roughly 2 Billion years ago.

Then there's all the evidence from genetic analysis both from cell nuclei and from Mitochondria.

So given that our inheritance can be traced back to basic single celled organisms from many Billions of years ago, in real life we know fine well we're not the descendants of an alien race.
 
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ia.

So given that our inheritance can be traced back to basic single celled organisms from many Billions of years ago, in real life we know fine well we're not the descendants of an alien race.

I'm sure that holds true for the Elite as well. DB is way to scientifically oriented to let something like that pass.

There may of course have been guardian visits to Earth in prehistoric times. Such a visit would still have to be considered relatively resent, in evolutionary terms.
 
I've been hyperdicted my last 3 jumps into Maia. 2 before the patch and 1 after. At least 2 of those were from different originating systems.

Anyone else seeing the same?

Thargoids did attack me after the patch (carrying Thargoid Probe).

Thats just obviously logic... and that was patched today...So its normal...
 
I'm sure that holds true for the Elite as well. DB is way to scientifically oriented to let something like that pass.

There may of course have been guardian visits to Earth in prehistoric times. Such a visit would still have to be considered relatively resent, in evolutionary terms.

And there might something like David Brin's skyhook idea in Sundiver et al.

Although, even then I doubt DBOBE, MB etc would be so keen to wipe out humanity's achievements.
 
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Kinda reminds me on signs at guardians site:
xAPhJ5c.jpg

So I would say it is totally irrelevant for the game-play. Nothing to see here, move on.

Although I admire Your sharp eye.
 
My big concern around the hypothesis that the Thargoids are the Guardian AIs/Exiles/Hybrids is that the Guardians were highly advanced in biological warfare yet we, despite being less advanced, beat the Thargoids previously with the mycoid virus.

The mycoid was only myth and legend until recently but is now confirmed.

Also, the first Guardian civil war was between the tech merged Guardians and the anti-tech faction. That resulted in the exile of the Tech merged faction. The second civil war was over the AIs seeking existence as independent beings. It was between those that supported the AIs and the anti-tech/religious faction. No reason for the AIs to hate all Guardians when plenty of them fought and died for their right to exist.

There's been over 1,000 years of hyperspace travel. The Guardian bubble having been reached in that time is pretty reasonable. That's not taking into account warps and Galactic hyperdrives.

Not sure why humans would be Guardian descendants. I don't think FD would ignore the evolutionary history of humans on Earth which goes way way further back than the time of the Guardians. We share the basic skeletal structure of animals from 100s of millions of years ago on Earth, but we don't share the same structure as Guardians. Convergent evolution covers the similarities between humans and Guardians much better.

Also, indications are that it may have been us that attacked the Thargoids rather than the other way round.

Your first point: I don't think it's that the entirety of a mature and civilisation-spanning AI left and set up shop cranking out upgrades like the Matrix. I imagine the war was brutal, we know it ended the Guardian civilisation entirely, so it must have been epic. I imagine that a few surviving AI units escaped and slowly altered themselves over time, maybe they made lots of mistakes and were working with limited resources. It could even have been the equivalent of a few machines lying in a wrecked ship in a crater on some crappy ammonia based world after crashing there. Maybe it took them a million years to figure out how to walk, we don't really know how an AI (especially an Alien one, damaged by war) might evolve.

It may not have been the Guardian AI that evolved into the Thargoids, but there still must be some significant link in the past between Thargoids and the Guardians that goes so far as to make the Thargoids react very violently to their technology in a way they just never have to us. If it was something like "we used Guardian stuff in the past", then why don't the Thargoids react as violently to us? As far as we know the Relics are inert things, maybe they are ancient weapons batteries (them rising up from the ground might suggest that), but that implies the Thargoids recognise that tech for what it is, recognise it, not us using them, and not us as the beings that wield them, but the technology itself.

My theory, that there's a racial link between Thargoids and Guardians, makes sense of the almost instinctual reaction they show. It's like the reaction a Cat has to anything vaguely snake-shaped, it's hard-coded in ancient DNA because the two were ancient enemies. And, we only know of one enemy the Guardians had - the AI/Linked Guardians.


Your second point about the Guardian link with Humanity: Since DB and the team are scientifically oriented (while not strictly adhering to scientific fact) I don't believe they would "accidentally" create a species of aliens that look almost exactly like humans breathing almost exactly human air that aren't related to us. Statistically that's incredibly unlikely to occur based on everything we know about evolution. Convergent Evolution accounts for small structures like eyes or certain organ features, but even then they evolved from the same basic ancestor on the same planet so it makes sense that ultimately evolution would sometimes come up with very similar things given the same deck of cards to shuffle, but why would evolution create bipedal, bilaterally symmetrical animals on a totally different planet unless they were related somehow? There's no reason that the ancestors of Guardians were 5 lobed organisms, they might have had six, or twenty, or three. Any minor variation back at the dawn of time would create wildly different end products, and sure they might have eyes similar to us, or maybe they have calcium-based bones because that's a handy thing to use, but it's far, far, far more likely that they'd be literally anything else. We know on Earth that evolution has come up with millions of different answers to the same basic needs (food, protection, mating, etc.). Some species have wings, some are small, some big, some have tiny brains, some big, some are covered in armour, some fur, some scales, some warn blooded, some cold, some are mushrooms... Convergent Evolution wouldn't create a species that looks almost exactly like humans, or rather, it's so statistic incredibly unlikely that it's certainly not going to happen in almost the exact same region of space! If there are other Human-forms out there it's more likely they are on the other side of the universe or something.

What you're suggesting is that because a pack of playing cards dropped by Bob the Gambler landed with more Clubs facing up than any other suit, if you drop 52 bananas from an albatross they'd land with more Clubs facing up too. It just doesn't make sense.

There's so many factors that guide biology over an evolutionary process. The chances of two bipedal bilaterally organised oxygen-nitrogen breathing creatures naturally evolving in total isolation in almost exactly the same area of the galaxy is literally astronomical - Especially since the entire rest of the Galaxy (as far as we know) is totally uninhabited by sentient space-faring races, yet is equally littered with Earth-like worlds.

There's many ways the Guardians could be our progenitors that could intersect with what we know of our own evolutionary history. There's got to be literally thousands of Sci-Fi books that deal with similar topics, some better than others! Sure, none of them happened in real life, but it's stunningly unlikely we'll encounter sentient insectiod aliens that talk in morse code too, so there's some narrative lattitude given to Elite Dangerous game genetics :)

That brings me to point 3: There MUST be a connection between the Guardians, Thargoids and Humans that goes back to our 'birth' as a species. It's simply that we can understand each other. Ram Tah fairly easily translated the Guardian data without any frame of reference. We can understand the basic principles of the layout of the ruins, they seem familiar (the layout is not dissimilar from things we build), the scale of the obelisks is basically human-engineering-sized, the overall scale of the Ruins is human-like. Etc. etc. Same with the Thargoid stuff, it's all things we can understand. They use visible light to communicate in very similar ways to us (red is bad, etc.) They make sounds we can hear and interpret with our ears. The scale of the ground facilities indicate they're much bigger than us but not impossibly so. They use morse code, which means they must have learned it from us I guess? They behave in ways we can understand (for the most part) They use doors with keys, they use logic in similar ways to us, they view things similarly to us (the hologram in the central base chamber, etc.

The very fact that both the Aliens we encountered are: a) Understandable, b) share structural, societal and cultural similarities to us, c) occupy the same area of an otherwise empty Galaxy means there must be a connection.
 
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Id be interested in theories (or Tinfoil Hattery) on what's going on with the second ship appearing when you drop MA's in a NHSS?

For those that don't know: If you drop into a Non-Human signal and drop 5+ Meta-Alloys, the Thargoid ship scoops them up, and as it's doing so a second Thargoid ship jumps in, sets off an EMP, and... flies around then jumps out. The first ship continues about it's business as usual until it's done, then jumps out as normal.

If you drop only one or two MA's, the Thargoid scoops them and that's it.

I'm seeing very little discussion of this event which, it seems to me, is quite extraordinary.

The second ship appears to completely ignore the human pilot in the situation, if anything it looks like it's more interested in the other Thargoid ship. The reason for the EMP blast is unknown too.

Are there any versions of this encounter that differ from the above? Times when more than one ship arrived, times when no ships arrived?

Speculation on what's happening here?

It's interesting, but insufficient information to hypothesise as yet. What were the Thargoid markings?- same type or different?
 
Ok, I think this needs a considered response and I'm not 100% sure where to pitch this so please forgive me (you and anyone else reading) if this slips either into partronisingly simple or way too esoteric.

So the first thing to cover is the word 'Theory'. I might be wrong here, but you seem to be using it as though it means 'idea'. That's not what 'Theory' means in 'Theory of evolution' or similar scientific theories.

The theory of evolution is based on a incredibly huge amount of evidence. As a whole it's not really in any credible doubt. Most of the doubt cast on it is just misconceptions and deliberate misportrayals of the situation. I'm saying this whole bit specifically because the 'it's just a theory' thing is one of those misconceptions / misportrayals that gets spread around far too much.

So, consider the following:
- every vertebrate embryo on Earth has the same form at early stages of development (human embryos have tails until about 7 weeks.)
- all vertebrates on Earth share the same basic body structure. That structure goes back to before vertebrate animals emerged from the sea. This is more than 400 million years ago. (snakes differ in that they have no arms and legs, but the genes responsible have been identified, and its origin traced to approx 150 million years ago.)

Those are just basic structural points.

There's then cellular comparisons, where the commonalities between vertebrates and other animals become apparent, then plants, fungi and so on further and further back until things reach the point of the origin of Eukaryotes - cells which have internal structures enclosed by their own membranes (cell nuclei, mitochondria, etc.) - from Prokaroytes - simple single cells that don't have internal memebrane-enclosed structures. Under the Eukaryotic line there are all animals, all plants, fungi, and various other groups of organisms. Under the Prokaryotic line there are Bacteria and Archaea.

The origins of Eukaryotes is traced to roughly 2 Billion years ago.

Then there's all the evidence from genetic analysis both from cell nuclei and from Mitochondria.

So given that our inheritance can be traced back to basic single celled organisms from many Billions of years ago, in real life we know fine well we're not the descendants of an alien race.

As an aside to this, Ben Miller's book The Aliens are Coming! is a good read.
 
@Moribus (#171 in case I get gazumped):

It's in our nature to *want* to draw links between us, the Guardians and the 'Goids, because it gets to the heart of the human condition: to question our origins in this impossibly vast universe.

But some of your reasons for drawing a link between the origins of the three of us have logical leaps of faith which are far more easily explained. I think it's backwards logic, even if tempting and understandable, to find similarities between three intelligent species and therefore say they must have the same origins, or have one as responsible for, or involved in, the creation of one or both of the others.

All forms of communication, given that they convey *information*, can be understood - all that's required is to identify *where* the information is and then *what* the information is - and the rest is just a matter of time. Equally, the more complex the information is, the more structured it becomes and, oddly, the easier it becomes to identify that information in order to extract it.

And of course, information has no language in and of itself: a number can be communicated in an infinite number of ways, but the number itself - the information it represents - is unique. Therefore if a person wishes to extract information from a message, all that's required is that they are able to understand the underlying information. After that, only their ingenuity determines whether they can decode it.

That Ram Tah can, therefore, decode guardian communication does not automatically mean we're related to Guardians. It's more easily explained as that we're of similar intelligence and therefore able to comprehend the information that is being conveyed. And if we make a much more reasonable assumption that any spacefaring species must be *at least* as intelligent as us - that makes our ability to understand them require much less of a mental, and existential, leap.

Structures such as doors etc might be almost inevitable in a society of individual organisms of sufficient complexity (even if it's a hive mind). Especially in cases of organisms which require a specific type of atmosphere (e.g. Oxygen/Nitrogen or Ammonia) in which to flourish. Doors, for example, provide a seal: a way to keep something out, or, more importantly, in, temporarily.

So a spacefaring organism would *obviously* need doors in order to protect itself from hard-vacuum. Again: I think that's a considerably simpler explanation than a shared heritage.

And finally, my third argument:

Size: In general, the bigger you are, the dumber you are.

Now this is all relative of course, but all life consumes energy - the bigger you are the more you need, obviously. It's also true that the cleverer you are the more energy you need to develop and sustain that intelligence.

A large proportion of the energy we consume goes into growing and maintaining our brain because it's so complex. Now, there's no evidence the guardians had access to limitless energy in their early evolution (I'm being facetious, of course: we can pretty much assume they didn't) therefore their physiology would be a product of the availability of the resources they consumed, versus their population, and their intelligence. A highly social - and therefore intelligent - being can only evolve if the population is large enough and in an environment with limited resources this automatically makes resources scarce.

The way to balance this out is to be physically smaller so more of the resources you consume goes into developing that brain instead of growing the body to gargantuan proportions. So, again, I think it's easier to explain a similar size to us as being a product of the fact that they achieved a similar level of intelligence and complexity as us - rather than saying it means we're related.

Now admittedly that last one also has a few mental leaps in it - but it's definitely my preferred interpretation until we have hard evidence that actually links all three, or even two of the three, species in this little menage â trois.
 
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Id like to note that the patchnotes (before they were taken down) they called the Interceptor a Thargoid Scout. Very interesting

Yeah, it's pretty clear they renamed the flower ships at Frontier Towers from Scout to Interceptor, and then placed this new Scout ship asset in 2.4

But the old name sticks in developer's heads

Just like they keep referring to the Empire Trader ship … still
 
For those that don't know: If you drop into a Non-Human signal and drop 5+ Meta-Alloys, the Thargoid ship scoops them up, and as it's doing so a second Thargoid ship jumps in, sets off an EMP, and... flies around then jumps out. The first ship continues about it's business as usual until it's done, then jumps out as normal.

The second ship appears to completely ignore the human pilot in the situation, if anything it looks like it's more interested in the other Thargoid ship. The reason for the EMP blast is unknown too.

Speculation on what's happening here?

Speculation:
First one accepts MAs. Second one drops in to scan the first one, just in case MAs are contaminated. So he is ready to destroy the first one if he notice some malfunction/deformation, to avoid nests/motherships infection/contamination.
 
Yeah, it's pretty clear they renamed the flower ships at Frontier Towers from Scout to Interceptor, and then placed this new Scout ship asset in 2.4

But the old name sticks in developer's heads

Just like they keep referring to the Empire Trader ship … still

I think it a shame they didn't get rename Flower Ships until/if w get their actual names via communication
 
I was interdicted before but 2 mins ago was different (?). Scared the sheet out of me. New animation, strong EMP from behind. After that systems functional but not the thrusters. He stayed behind all the time. He wake out before I was able to turn to see him. Systems all normal only while he was entering the wake. Some messages, scary sounds. Wow FD. Need to check screenshots.

My precious cargo of Thargoids corrosive stuff was destroyed 15 mins ago with my ship, so I was empty.

Bad screenshot, all I got. 2nd try. And again, I have better pic now.

KOFP6tB.jpg

I am going back for a third time... I am going nowhere, it doesnt allow me to leave the system.

Thargoid attacking(?)/looting BTG-237 (and me) right now. NPC I.P.S.A.I. Project showed up and gone without wake? Safe at the Oracle.

So HIP 17481 is hot right now if You are looking for hyperdiction.
 
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@Moribus (#171 in case I get gazumped):

It's in our nature to *want* to draw links between us, the Guardians and the 'Goids, because it gets to the heart of the human condition: to question our origins in this impossibly vast universe.

But some of your reasons for drawing a link between the origins of the three of us have logical leaps of faith which are far more easily explained. I think it's backwards logic, even if tempting and understandable, to find similarities between three intelligent species and therefore say they must have the same origins, or have one as responsible for, or involved in, the creation of one or both of the others.

All forms of communication, given that they convey *information*, can be understood - all that's required is to identify *where* the information is and then *what* the information is - and the rest is just a matter of time. Equally, the more complex the information is, the more structured it becomes and, oddly, the easier it becomes to identify that information in order to extract it.

And of course, information has no language in and of itself: a number can be communicated in an infinite number of ways, but the number itself - the information it represents - is unique. Therefore if a person wishes to extract information from a message, all that's required is that they are able to understand the underlying information. After that, only their ingenuity determines whether they can decode it.

That Ram Tah can, therefore, decode guardian communication does not automatically mean we're related to Guardians. It's more easily explained as that we're of similar intelligence and therefore able to comprehend the information that is being conveyed. And if we make a much more reasonable assumption that any spacefaring species must be *at least* as intelligent as us - that makes our ability to understand them require much less of a mental, and existential, leap.

Structures such as doors etc might be almost inevitable in a society of individual organisms of sufficient complexity (even if it's a hive mind). Especially in cases of organisms which require a specific type of atmosphere (e.g. Oxygen/Nitrogen or Ammonia) in which to flourish. Doors, for example, provide a seal: a way to keep something out, or, more importantly, in, temporarily.

So a spacefaring organism would *obviously* need doors in order to protect itself from hard-vacuum. Again: I think that's a considerably simpler explanation than a shared heritage.

And finally, my third argument:

Size: In general, the bigger you are, the dumber you are.

Now this is all relative of course, but all life consumes energy - the bigger you are the more you need, obviously. It's also true that the cleverer you are the more energy you need to develop and sustain that intelligence.

A large proportion of the energy we consume goes into growing and maintaining our brain because it's so complex. Now, there's no evidence the guardians had access to limitless energy in their early evolution (I'm being facetious, of course: we can pretty much assume they didn't) therefore their physiology would be a product of the availability of the resources they consumed, versus their population, and their intelligence. A highly social - and therefore intelligent - being can only evolve if the population is large enough and in an environment with limited resources this automatically makes resources scarce.

The way to balance this out is to be physically smaller so more of the resources you consume goes into developing that brain instead of growing the body to gargantuan proportions. So, again, I think it's easier to explain a similar size to us as being a product of the fact that they achieved a similar level of intelligence and complexity as us - rather than saying it means we're related.

Now admittedly that last one also has a few mental leaps in it - but it's definitely my preferred interpretation until we have hard evidence that actually links all three, or even two of the three, species in this little menage â trois.

You make some interesting points, but I think you're missing the most important aspects of this discussion regarding the unlikelihood of two species evolving entirely independently that look almost exactly the same, breathe the same atmosphere and live in almost exactly the same environments. In that, it's virtually impossible, and if it did happen they'd almost certainly not evolve practically as neighbours. The stuff you highlight is only one aspect of my entire point about the relationship between Humans, Guardians and Thargoids.

Plus, Ram Tah actually says in his research notes that we're remarkably similar to the Guardians on a DNA level and most likely share a common ancestor at the very least (that's literally in game lore). Plus, DB in one of his interviews goes on about how he doesn't like Star Trek aliens because they're just humans with forehead bumps stuck on and he goes on to say that Aliens would be really, really alien, not just basically a bit different people, which the Guardians are. I think it's pretty obvious from everything (both in and out of game) that us and the Guardians are related and/or linked.

But to be more specific about some things; Before we discovered the Rosetta Stone, we were unable to translate ancient Egyptian accurately simply because we had literally no reference to work from, we could make guesses but that's about it. So, this is one (of several) examples of how a 'lost' human language was untranslatable on Earth. That's given the fact that we're translating a human language, you'd think it would be pretty easy, especially since there's a lot of reference materials all over the place. Yet it took the discovery of a "key" before we were able to do it. We're still arguing about how the Egyptians lived, and they were humans living only a few thousand years ago and we have a LOT of writing, descriptions, evidence, text and references for their culture - and we're still not sure. You're suggesting that just because we're both smart species, we'd be able to translate not only an entirely Alien language made by Alien beings millions of years ago and encoded in a programming language made up by Aliens with literally no frame of reference or language basis but also from that make whatever we get into easy to understand concepts that gel almost perfectly with our own understanding of culture, religion, sex, biology and technology. History does not support that theory at all.

I don't really want there to be links between us. I dislike the "humans are aliens" theories, I think they devalue our achievements and belittle our wonderful (sometimes crappy) history and society, so I have no bias for wanting these things to be true, they just *are*. I would entirely prefer it if the Guardians were just another type of alien, but the evidence all points towards them not being. I also personally much prefer the theory (that I used to hold too) that the Thargoids come from outside our Galaxy, the Magellanic Clouds specifically since the symbol on the Barnacles looks a bit like the big one, but it seems increasingly likely that they come from somewhere in the Col 70 sector, which puts them insanely close to the only other two sentient races in an otherwise totally empty Galaxy. That's not a coincidence.

The Thargoid link is the weakest, but there must be a link because the Thargoids react to the Guardian Tech. Even Ram Tah says there's a link somewhere in the distant past between the species, though he doesn't speculate as to when or how.

It's mentioned in the Guardian files that they were adept bio-engineers, they actually even made entire species just to eat them for delicacies. I did consider that maybe the Guardians made the Thargoids as food and they just evolved when the Guardians died off, but that doesn't make sense since (as far as we currently know) the Thargoids are Ammonia based, so they'd be terrible food animals!

The other, and really only other option that fits the facts currently is that there's another group of Guardians out there (possibly the Exiles) who have encountered the Thargoids in the past. This would explain why nothing in the Guardian History mentions aliens, yet the Thargoids clearly know the Guardians just by one bit of tech (even their automated facilities are programmed to recognise Guardian tech).
 
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