Time to remove BGS exploits

[Apos]

I have to say I dislike the transaction based methods on the BGS. It's all so tedious. There's really no reason FDev should remove influence from single item trading but retain it for single item exploration.

It's lame. I'm good at exploration. I know how to find earth likes, terraformables, etc. I made Elite on my trip back from Sag A. I wish that would count for something more than a honk and scoot, but nope. Same with CZs. It's *harder* to stay in a CZ for a long time and rack up millions upon millions in bounties. But nope, the most tedious thing to do is to kill a ship or two and turn it in, ad nauseam. Unfortunately that's also what you *should* do.

It's lame.

To AEDC, for me it's all in good fun. Once upon a time, long ago, I considered joining the Alliance. Then I found out about the turning a blind eye to slavery. I don't tolerate that. I let it be known (and it's not very popular!) that I will kill any commander in our fleet that is caught shipping slaves, so buyer beware on talking about it. Really the only thing that loses my respect for you guys was turning a good war between our two factions into a dogpile when you started losing a little (Just by a few percent. C'mon)

There's nothing good about fighting a war against murder.

We already provided the bounty board in the aftermath of the war. Your guys did close to 50M of murder across 6 days leading to and during the war.

Sorry, but that's not what a "good war" is. You have failed to uphold that standard from the very first day of your engagement with us, with over 100M of murder being commited against us in the past 2 months.

If we robbed you of a win while all of your guys were fighting in the war zones, sure, there would be an argument to be made. But since that wasn't the case, we fought what you had available with what we had available. And there is nothing turning it sour in that regard.

Well, if FD doesn't address the recent erratic behavior of system authority ships soon, I'll start shooting them on sight anyway. Any of them, any system, player factions be damned. It's getting so a brother can't earn an honest credit, when the authority ships do their best to make you wanted. [wacko]

It's true. Out of all the bugs coming back, the ramming cops/pirates is up there among the most annoying ones.

But hey, it could be worse. It could have been the return of the ships the repeater with PAs instead.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

There's nothing good about fighting a war against murder.

We already provided the bounty board in the aftermath of the war. Your guys did close to 50M of murder across 6 days leading to and during the war.

Sorry, but that's not what a "good war" is. You have failed to uphold that standard from the very first day of your engagement with us, with over 100M of murder being commited against us in the past 2 months.

Are you pretending we don't see the bounty boards plastered with the names of all your guys up there? We do.

The difference is, we're fighting for something. You're fighting for slavery. You're not imperial, so it's not "Gee golly just your favorite thing." No, you allow it because you're afraid of standing up for what's right. Afraid your "Alliance" will shatter when you introduce a moral or two. You're cowards. And then you turn around and accuse us of being better than you at fighting war, when our motivations are righteous.

Thank you for the compliment.

 

[Apos]

Are you pretending we don't see the bounty boards plastered with the names of all your guys up there? We do.

The difference is, we're fighting for something. You're fighting for slavery. You're not imperial, so it's not "Gee golly just your favorite thing." No, you allow it because you're afraid of standing up for what's right. Afraid your "Alliance" will shatter when you introduce a moral or two. You're cowards. And then you turn around and accuse us of being better than you at fighting war, when our motivations are righteous.

Thank you for the compliment.

How are we fighting for slavery exactly? That's quite the weird RP spin you have there if anything. Do you know the lore behind the system we took over and what the Federation did there? The one that you so are so stubborn to take back as a matter of pride? Because it's very close to actual slavery.

Accusing the Alliance of slavery while pushing for the re-establishment of the most cruel labour camp in lore is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

Anyway, like I said, we used the tools available to us. That includes murder against your murder, yes. However, we're not the ones who fired the first shot against police. We have sustained your attacks for over a month without retaliation. It wasn't until you decided to extend your offence to our main faction that we replied back.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

How are we fighting for slavery exactly? That's quite the weird RP spin you have there if anything. Do you know the lore behind the system we took over and what the Federation did there? The one that you so are so stubborn to take back as a matter of pride? Because it's very close to actual slavery.

Anyway, like I said, we used the tools available to us. That includes murder against your murder, yes. However, we're not the ones who fired the first shot against police. We have sustained your attacks for over a month without retaliation. It wasn't until you decided to extend your offence to our main faction that we replied back.

I guess you're not very familiar with Alliance lore and motivations? Think pre-civil war America- barely holding itself together with platitudes and travesties of justice and law, all out of fear of facing their demons.

But I suppose everyone tries to paint themselves as the good guy in their own mind. See you on the field, sympathizer (if you wipe the yella' off your belly and actually play in Open once in a while, that is... )

 

[shi no shinkirò]

I must say, kinda hoped someone would create a thread like this one so here's my two cents as a player involved in both the BGS side of this so called war and in the Pvp side of it.
First, all AEDC members (not me because i'm a lurker) have always complained about the weight of the transactions in the BGS in multiple threads and we don't base our strategy on it unless someone uses first against us so being repeatedly accused of being exploiters not only is uncalled for but it's even starting to become annoying. the truth ( or you can call it our truth depending on your side) is that we're using it because we're BEING FORCED not because we like it, nor because we want to win using some sort of instawin cheat like some people claimed we do.

Says the pilot with 10 million+ in fed bounties? We all do it, because it works too well. For that reason. I’d say murder needs to be brought in line as well. Mostly because missions, trade, and bounty hunting mean almost nothing in comparison.

Come on guys, we can keep this discussion friendlier than this. On this forum, we are people sitting in computer offices playing a video game. You’re not an Alliance pilot. I’m not some Fed-rat. We’re not in outer space fighting an intergalactic war. You can respond to Victore with some respect, and mention that murder needs a nerf without rude accusations.

Do you really want to talk about this because in these 2 months( 2 months!) of murder done against our systems with less than 100k pop( i know, moving the inf in these systems is so hard, it's comparable to pushing Lave.... right?) at least 5/6 pilots involved accumulated bounties over 20 millions against not one but two factions( one of these factions is totally uninvolved with ross 128 but it was done only to put more stress on us).
I agree with keeping this discussion as cool and calm as possible,but please understand it's not easy to stay calm after all it's happening so the terms might heat up a bit.

The Earth Defense Fleet takes pride in how we conduct ourselves.We do everything out in the Open and above board. We do not hide behind Private Group and Solo walls using known exploits as some do. To compensate for their lack of skill. We also know how to fight our own battles without having to go and ask for help from other to fight our battles for us.

ok... here we go, time to make a couple of things clear.
Using the weight of the transactions in the BGS IS NOT an exploit, this was made clear more than once or every single BGS player here, note my words, not just us or you but EVERY SINGLE BGS PLAYER in the game should be considered an exploiter since we all use this value when calculating how much effort is needed to obtain the wanted result, or you're saying EDF drops all the bounties(and everything else) in a single huge transaction?

Sorry but the next part might sound a bit aggressive;
take pride in how you conduct yourselves? Come again? You may want to reconsider this part since:
1:as soon as your first offensive against ross 128 started( all done with murder) and we managed to fight back ( without using murder) some EDF members including some of the officers started multiple murder sprees against low population system with the objective of getting us in war and to trigger one or more retreats; you may say what i'm saying it's not related but you've just complained about how the number of transactions makes everything else meaningless in the BGS and guess what does abuse this mechanic? You've guessed it right..... the answer is murder!
2:soon after when we managed to lock the faction involved in elections you( as EDF not as a person) started attacking multiple low pop systems, again using murder, belonging to our main faction, disregarding the fact said faction doesn't control Ross 128.
3: one of your most vocal members on this forum is a proud advocate of the advantages of private groups and solo mode.
4:when the war at Lave against LRN started one of your officers said on the twitch chat, citing based on my memory so the words won't be the same, "i CAN'T say who we are but if you check on the top 5 bounties board you'll know who i am but there's a big federal group that would like to help you taking Lave". this not only goes against taking pride of your actions but it's a clear try to not expose yourself and, well that could be seen as debatable, wasn't done in open play since we( the allied forces in this case) had gained and mantained the control of open play for the whole duration of the war, with always some PvPers ready to engage the enemy forces in the CS or even in supercruise if the target was wanted.
5:soon later a thread done by a self proclaimed "oppressed indy trader" lamented how he was interdicted by federal forces at ross 128. Sorry.... and indy trader... in a federal permit system... with a terrible/not so good choice of trader routes....what?
Said trader turned out to be another EDF officer. ( something,something, pride in your actions)
6:we had some PvP action in one of your systems, during these fights the fed side lost 1 corvette( rebuy screen) and at least 2/3 other vettes waked out after sustaining serious damage.
Soon later the same night our wing ( 4 ships) was engage again from a single wing of 4 ships, we managed to push them back again ( i don't mean to brag), we then proceeded to a safe port to rearm and repair.
Same night, same system; the same members were engaged for the third time from a full wing but now some of them were using cannons modded with the thermal cascade effect, kept "report crime against me" set to [on].
during this fight we managed to corner a federal corvette( the pilot was one of your officers and i won't lie saying we didn't target him for that exact reason)reducing his FSD health to 0% but then the unexpected happened.... he engaged the magical combat log drive and avoided another rebuy screen. in the meantime one FDL on our side was killed thanks to multiple malfunctions caused by heat damage( guess what caused it) and 2 more federal pilot jumped in the fray; in light of that i called a strategic retreat since the damages inflicted were in our favor and i didn't want to fight a 4v6 with thermal cascade cannons+the help of the system security.
7: another thread made by another indy, showed a screenshot of a bunch of systems in civil unrest saying how the alliance doesn't take care of its home and cited again ross 128; the systems showed are controlled by one of our factions and what causes civil unrest? again, you've guessed it right.... murder!
Even in this second case the OP was an EDF member. We have the proof but i won't show it now i will say how we got it, you(EDF) know it's the truth, we know it's the truth, if this is not enugh for the uninvolved( honestly i wouldn't believe me either) just ignore this point but keep in mind the thread was moved to the RP section thanks to said proof.
8:when, thanks to the BGS going haywire for a week and the hamster triggering pending states that ignored every kind of order, rule and logic, the federal side managed to trigger a war for the control of ross 128( using murder...again) EDF increased the amount of murder done in the system, hid in PG and asked other PvPers to keep us busy in open because they(EDF) were going to work the BGS side of the war and they didn't want any distraction.
9: during the same war an EDF officer asked on discord to "murder LHS 2451 ships" at ross 128, not to help them in the CZs but to use murder.( you don't need any help to win your wars? we were already fighting against 2 player groups and some random feds)
10: after the end of the war, that brings us at the current date. the murder sprees in our low pop systems keep going.
11: lack of skills? you got outsmarted and then you tried to replicate the day after, during the Ross 128 war and not only there, we've noticed how your group learned from us and tried to do the same multiple times(failing).

i don't need to say english is not my native language so sorry if it was painful to read.
Have a nice day.

 

[Apos]

I guess you're not very familiar with Alliance lore and motivations? Think pre-civil war America- barely holding itself together with platitudes and travesties of justice and law, all out of fear of facing their demons.

But I suppose everyone tries to paint themselves as the good guy in their own mind. See you on the field, sympathizer (if you wipe the yella' off your belly and actually play in Open once in a while, that is... )

Erm...we're not exactly having a debate over slavery in the Alliance like pre-civil war America did. It's already outlawed across all lawful government types within it.

Unless we're talking about the Alliance of a different universe, which is very possible since you provide no sources to back up such a claim.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

There's not such thing as being a member of when it comes to the BGS. Don't get yourself confused with the PP figures, they don't participate in the BGS directly.

If you go on a rampage on security, you will hurt the ruler's influence that employees that security. Depending on your ship and its capacity to sustain taking fire and kill fast, this can range from mildly annoying to beyond broken.

How many kills over what period of time separate mildly annoying to beyond broken?

 

[Apos]

How many kills over what period of time separate mildly annoying to beyond broken?

An engineered corvette can kill non-stop for the better part of an hour. That's the point where you reach beyond broken.

An anaconda and FDL will do "adequate" and everything below will be "midly annoying" because they can't keep up that well.

Also depends what you are murdering. It's harder to do it againt Feds because they spawn FGS/FAS. Hopefully this will change with the incoming Alliance ships.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

I was in a non-player own faction's controlled system last night to earn some merits for my current pim..err "leader" and I settled into a HiRES and starting killing every one of their pledged ships that I could find, and any ship that was wanted in between. It wasn't too long before the system authority was all over me, and I didn't want (or need) to leave so I just started mowing them down too. I'm in an Anaconda that I've been engineering up over the past two months, and my crew member is nearly elite, so I'm pretty much a god to NPCs (not a good one I suppose). I stayed there for over an hour.

Are you saying that I can do that in a player owned faction, and they would feel the impacts of my evening of wickedness?

Say I put in a couple of hours. Would it require an equal amount of time invested from their end to counter this?

 

[Sebastian Rooks]

It's true. Out of all the bugs coming back, the ramming cops/pirates is up there among the most annoying ones.

But hey, it could be worse. It could have been the return of the ships the repeater with PAs instead.

True. But if that happens again, my ships are much faster now, lol.

 

[Apos]

I was in a non-player own faction's controlled system last night to earn some merits for my current pim..err "leader" and I settled into a HiRES and starting killing every one of their pledged ships that I could find, and any ship that was wanted in between. It wasn't too long before the system authority was all over me, and I didn't want (or need) to leave so I just started mowing them down too. I'm in an Anaconda that I've been engineering up over the past two months, and my crew member is nearly elite, so I'm pretty much a god to NPCs (not a good one I suppose). I stayed there for over an hour.

Are you saying that I can do that in a player owned faction, and they would feel the impacts of my evening of wickedness?

Say I put in a couple of hours. Would it require an equal amount of time invested from their end to counter this?

Well...more than equal amount of time, but yes.

However I wouldn't condone it. It's not fair play and I'd rather people abstained from it until a proper adjustment is made.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Well...more than equal amount of time, but yes.

However I wouldn't condone it. It's not fair play and I'd rather people abstained from it until a proper adjustment is made.

Well sure, no one would condone someone comming into their system and taking out their authority ships, and most would agree that murder is inheriently "unfair", but I'm still trying to work out what is broken or needs to be fixed. Is it that the impacts of the murders are too severe, or that it impacts things at all?

 

[Jmanis]

Now that we know their are going to some quality of life improvements coming to Elite in season 3 some of the exploits that are in the game need to be addressed. Mostly the exploration data exploits and combat bond exploits.

There is no exploration data exploit. Unlike the 1t trading exploit, the original implementation of selling exploration data was one report at a time.

Therefore the original design *ONLY* had the option of selling one exploration report at a time and gaining the relevant credits and BGS influence change for each report.

Selling a page at a time came later on after community complaints about how tedious selling exploration data was, and it clearly wasn't implemented properly if it's not giving the correct influence for the whole page.

Further... unlike the 1t trading bug, if I've got 50t of goods I want to split over five different systems in order to gain influence, I can happily sell 10t at each place. To sell 1t at a time is clearly trying to take advantage of some mechanic (which no longer exists) when you've always been able to sell any amount of goods in one transaction.

But if I have 50 reports, and I want to split their sale across five different systems, I *must* sell them one at a time. There is no other option, so how can that be an exploit?

tl;dr Selling one report at a time was the original intended mechanic. The "sell a page" function is what's broken, and not attributing the correct amount of influence gain.

As for combat bonds, I'm happy to sit around and debate that one. Apart from the fact selling one bond at a time is much more pants than the old 1t trading exploit (flying out and in again repeatedly), if Player A is in a really tough ship with the staying power to get 3m in kills at a time, and Player B is only in a relatively weak ship, netting 300k in bonds before having to rearm/repair, but they stick with it for 3m worth of bonds, is that actually exploiting anything? Again, i'd argue the value of the bonds handed in is not being appropriately credited if Player B earns 10 times the influence of Player A.

If it's all a matter of intent, I'll just fly a below average fighter into a CZ in order to mitigate any insurance costs.

 

[Apos]

Well sure, no one would condone someone comming into their system and taking out their authority ships, and most would agree that murder is inheriently "unfair", but I'm still trying to work out what is broken or needs to be fixed. Is it that the impacts of the murders are too severe, or that it impacts things at all?

The former. There's nothing wrong with an action having an impact. The question is always about the time invested per effectiveness ratio.

It's a little more complicated than that when going into the mechanics themselves, however an example on the fly would be: Imagine having a bucket, filling that bucket decides the influence swings up to a certain cap which is based on some other parameters which are system related. Murder can fill that bucket to the brim in less time than anything else. Much less time.

And that's all there is to it.

 

[XanderVekk]

An engineered corvette can kill non-stop for the better part of an hour. That's the point where you reach beyond broken.

An anaconda and FDL will do "adequate" and everything below will be "midly annoying" because they can't keep up that well.

Also depends what you are murdering. It's harder to do it againt Feds because they spawn FGS/FAS. Hopefully this will change with the incoming Alliance ships.

Vipers are the worst. Tanky, small, hard to hit with big fixed weapons, harder to clear before the next reinforcement tick. And the Alliance sends dozens of them.

Not that I have any first hand experience in such a shady thing!

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Is it fair if this is all done in open?

 

[Apos]

Is it fair if this is all done in open?

Since your low wake eventually fades off and you are left in an instance to do as you please, I don't think doing it in open makes as much of a difference as many would like to claim.

My stance on it is to only use it back against those who are willing to use it against you.

 

[Icarus Eames]

Vipers are the worst. Tanky, small, hard to hit with big fixed weapons, harder to clear before the next reinforcement tick. And the Alliance sends dozens of them.

Not that I have any first hand experience in such a shady thing!

We get plenty of vipers as well. Just tank and ignore. One of your members could attest to that as I was tanking a handful while he engaged me in OPEN before he was forced to high wake.

I would like to reiterate what Mangal Oemie said earlier though. This is all in good fun and we are glad to have the EDF play along. The amount of content and gameplay that has been generated over this far exceeds a CG and has been a joy to take part in. I hope you guys feel the same.

 

[Tarman]

Trying to sum up quickly here:

So we have two (kind of) wrongs making a (kind of) right, until the BGS gets an overhaul on the effectiveness of all transactional effects, with the added bonus of potential whizzing contests on the edges of the issue over implementation details which won't matter once the transactionals are revamped, but that are currently used to net-zero the effects of each other?

 

[Pumabear8]

I sometimes wonder why I remain a lone wandering pilot, then I read the forum, although I do have to say, this was more entertaining than anything I did in the game today.