Relative mouse ON on FA-OFF vs HOTAS

[Kyokushin]

So Relative mouse is a mechanism in which to try and emulate joystick control. Yes?

No. Mouse is not emulating joystick and relative mouse is not emulating how joystick behave.
Mouse is mouse and stick is a stick. You will not emulate a wood on rock wnen you paint it brown. It still be a rock.
Playing FA OFF on relative mouse is like shooting in FPS or moving an icon on desktop. Try to move icons on desktop by a joystick. Emulate it, use it. I would like to see how you are using joystick to moving icons on desktop daily.

Its no matter how you name it, its comprasition between one controller and second.

Sounds relative mouse and FA OFF alltime is a far from design idea.
Now its FPS in space.

 

[Madrax573]

you are getting confused now mate.

Those posts you you showed above are an argument against FA-off and have nothing to do with relative mouse.

Relative mouse is exactly what I said above. It emulate the return to centre effect when you let go of your joystick. This is simple fact not an opinion. When you let go of your joystick does it not return to centre?

The whole argument about whether or not FA-off was/is from the original design etc is nothing to do with your OP. You are clutching at straws to try and back up your opinions.

I agree that HOTAS controls should have better refinement options to allow people to tweak their setting to better better but arguing against relative mouse (i.e. penalising a large portion of the player base) is not the way to put your points across in a constructive manner.

ED is not an FPS in space as even with FA-off there are HARD limits on your ability to turn and your vector speed. This is NOT full newtonian movement. If it was THEN you would have turrets in space and more akin to a true FPS.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

Relative mouse is exactly what I said above. It emulate the return to centre effect when you let go of your joystick. This is simple fact not an opinion. When you let go of your joystick does it not return to centre?

just because i hate to watch this conversation anymore:

the thing the op and that other guy are complaining about, is actually that the mouse user gets that tiny little advantage that he doesnt have to return his hand to a previous position,
he just needs to keep his hand still for a few milliseconds, and then can give a new direction

where as the joystick user has to move his hand together with the joystick back into that center position first.

the mouse user has to move his hand like half a milllimeter for a precise correction, where the joystick user has to move it at least twice as much.

the non-relative mode is actually what simulates the joystick, because you have to move your invisible cursor back into the center for neutral position.

"relative mode" is more like an analoge button that registers how hard or fast you pressed it, and doesnt register that you hold it down. (like acceleraton sensors)

 

[Madrax573]

just because i hate to watch this conversation anymore:

the thing the op and that other guy are complaining about, is actually that the mouse user gets that tiny little advantage that he doesnt have to return his hand to a previous position,
he just needs to keep his hand still for a few milliseconds, and then can give a new direction

where as the joystick user has to move his hand together with the joystick back into that center position first.

the mouse user has to move his hand like half a milllimeter for a precise correction, where the joystick user has to move it at least twice as much.

the non-relative mode is actually what simulates the joystick, because you have to move your invisible cursor back into the center for neutral position.

"relative mode" is more like an analoge button that registers how hard or fast you pressed it, and doesnt register that you hold it down. (like acceleraton sensors)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

Joysticks automatically recentre. It one of the things they do. If not then you joystick is broken and needs fixed.

The level of control in re-centreing a joystick is simply one of releasing pressure and letting it do it's thing.
However a mouse with relative switched of means that you have to 'pull' the joystick back to centre. It is not the same thing.
Relative mode is exactly an emulation of the re-centreing mechanism of a joystick. Except that you can dictate how fast it re-centres just like having different spring rate on your joystick.
I've worked on many different joystick control systems while doing my time in the air force. The return to centre should never be an effort requiring task.

That there are so many people using third party tools to allow better control of their joysticks is an indication that FDev should look at their refinement processes for joystick control. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can understand the original argument about the fine precision - thats what mice are designed for but the arguments for nerfing mouse control just because they are getting beaten my other player using it just don't fly with me. Especially since I know a lot of people who FA-off with HOTAS and are doing fine. This is at best an extreme edge case that should NOT be taken to mean an entire control method be restricted.

 

[Aris_]

just because i hate to watch this conversation anymore:

the thing the op and that other guy are complaining about, is actually that the mouse user gets that tiny little advantage that he doesnt have to return his hand to a previous position,
he just needs to keep his hand still for a few milliseconds, and then can give a new direction

where as the joystick user has to move his hand together with the joystick back into that center position first.

the mouse user has to move his hand like half a milllimeter for a precise correction, where the joystick user has to move it at least twice as much.

the non-relative mode is actually what simulates the joystick, because you have to move your invisible cursor back into the center for neutral position.

"relative mode" is more like an analoge button that registers how hard or fast you pressed it, and doesnt register that you hold it down. (like acceleraton sensors)

You are starting to understand the issue

is not a comparison between 2 input devises but the irrefutable fact that k/m have a large precision advantage due to inherited characteristics of mouse and coupled with the advantages in pvp (eng) transform it to an fps exchange of dps game

you need 3 times the experience to have the same precision with joy and none of the maneuverability advantages due to boost spreging strafing

again this is only for pvp we are not trying to devalue faoff flinging with k/m or hotas

please give the video i provided to both a hotas faoff and k/m faoff and compare pvp precision & ToT is irrefutable do we want fps pvp fights in ED ? if yes this is what we gonna have from now on

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

...
I can understand the original argument about the fine precision - thats what mice are designed for but the arguments for nerfing mouse control just because they are getting beaten my other player using it just don't fly with me. Especially since I know a lot of people who FA-off with HOTAS and are doing fine. This is at best an extreme edge case that should NOT be taken to mean an entire control method be restricted.

totally agree there - just because they found a good option for one input device, they should never put artificial nerfs on another.
since you have lots of experience with different sticks... is there any gamer product out there that has a fine-tune-able spring? or is that a something that requires a force feedback?

You are starting to understand the issue

i understood the issue from the very beginning... i'm just allergic to hyperbole and wrong statements. i think i mentioned that in my second post already

the whole topic made me think i want to try out my brothers steam controler for FA-OFF. if there is no "stick" but a touch pad, that one could work similar to mouse relative mode.

 

[Aris_]

i understood the issue from the very beginning... i'm just allergic to hyperbole and wrong statements. i think i mentioned that in my second post already

the whole topic made me think i want to try out my brothers steam controler for FA-OFF. if there is no "stick" but a touch pad, that one could work similar to mouse relative mode.

No you don't because you obviously don't pvp or you don't have pvp experience the issue is turning the game to a fps k/m faoff arcade not a controllers comparison , people already tried alot of goofy controllers that give fps advantages and that's the shame way outside of game intentions that breaks pvp

 

[Madrax573]

totally agree there - just because they found a good option for one input device, they should never put artificial nerfs on another.
since you have lots of experience with different sticks... is there any gamer product out there that has a fine-tune-able spring? or is that a something that requires a force feedback?

i understood the issue from the very beginning... i'm just allergic to hyperbole and wrong statements. i think i mentioned that in my second post already

the whole topic made me think i want to try out my brothers steam controler for FA-OFF. if there is no "stick" but a touch pad, that one could work similar to mouse relative mode.

With regards to 'tune-able' return to centre rates I'm not too certain. Most of my stick work was working on them in the Air force for actual planes

The ones I've seen are all force feedback ones. I think there are probably some places out there where you could potentially mod your sticks stock spring to be a bit firm maybes.

The steam controller is actually very tune-able and know of a couple of guys who struggled with FA-off until they got their settings just right. As for the relative mode it works just like a joystick. So if you release it re-centres as a joystick would so no need to relative anything as far as I know.

 

[Madrax573]

No you don't because you obviously don't pvp or you don't have pvp experience the issue is turning the game to a fps k/m faoff arcade not a controllers comparison , people already tried alot of goofy controllers that give fps advantages and that's the shame way outside of game intentions that breaks pvp

I'm sorry but your argument is about issues with PvP not controller setups/capabilities.

In all honesty this only applies to the the real PvP nutters who do nothing more than PvP and have some crazy competitive streak.... General PvP is perfectly fine.

And as for turning ED into and FPS shooter. Yeah nah as they say in Aus. Simply because there are hard caps on turning speed and movement. Remove the engineering from the ships in question and you'll find the difference isn't that great.

ED is very poorly balanced for PvP and controllers are not part of the problem. Fix the balancing and the silly engineering bonus structure and the controller complaints will just not be an argument.