PvP Aliens are ruining PvP

[Martian Successor]

I'm saying that FDev is solely responsible for the mechanisms in their games while players are solely responsible for their own behaviors.

I am in agreement.

Read the terms of the game and realize that menu log is allowed.

Is that directed toward me? By C-log I meant the act of task killing the game client and/or pulling the Internet cable.

I agree that suicide ramming is an exploit that ought to be reportable, but it's worth noting that not all station ramming = suicide. You can ram someone to death in Obsidian Orbital and face no consequences so long as you don't open fire.

I'm not a fan of the restricted docking idea though. There isn't an even enough distribution of anarchy systems to make such a measure anything other than punitive. If there was a well though out network of anarchy systems within the bubble, it would make a lot more sense. To put it in perspective, Zaphod Hawke is a criminal in Eve Online. He can still dock in any station, but the penalties for straying into a high security system can be difficult to deal with. He is instantly being hunted by local security forces, can't cloak, is fair game to anyone who shoots at him, and can't shoot back if anyone attacks. On the other hand, there is an extensive network of systems he can operate from with relative impunity.

We just don't have such a network in ED, although it should be relatively easy to change that.

Good point. I'm a fan of the idea that Anarchies should be a haven for the outlaw playstyle (more profits from selling illegal goods, etc) and dangerous for lawful players (installing some asteroid pirate bases which can only be docked at if the player is in tight with the local pirate gang, i.e. has become wanted in another system) while High Security systems should be a haven for the lawful playstyle and dangerous to outlaws (i.e. outlaws being harassed by security and not allowed to dock at anything bigger than an outpost). In between those are low and medium sec systems which could accommodate a middle ground for both players. Allowing outlaws to use stations but also affording some level of security and backup to law abiding players should the outlaws start some shizzle. Giant killing sprees in those systems should still carry some kind of consequence though.

You know what, I take back my previous post, it was incredibly naive.
Some kind of in game flag, much like "Report crimes", would make much more sense.

I'm not a fan of the PvP flag on/off idea. It would feel too gamey and is open for exploitation such as someone wanting to trash a player faction's BGS by going on a NPC murder spree and just popping his PvP flag to off for immunity. I would only ever support such a move if Open is made the only mode that affects the BGS.

 

[rootsrat]

Combat logging is a game wide problem, surely. It's cheating to avoid a rebuy, plain and simple.

Agreed. What about mindless ganking? Isn't that a game-wide problem too? (Albeit not a cheat per-se, more of an abuse).

::EDIT::

Just to clarify. I mean situations like wing of 4 experienced players in engineered Vettes/FDL's/whatever killing new players in Sidewinders in starter systems or the same wing of experienced players jumping and killing a defenceless (relatively) transporter ship in a trade CG (aka not pirating, just plain killing for no reason).

 

[Fendalton]

Agreed. What about mindless ganking? Isn't that a game-wide problem too? (Albeit not a cheat per-se, more of an abuse)

It's not really mindless, it's faster to level up your combat rank against players than NPC's isn't it? (iirc)

 

[rootsrat]

It's not really mindless, it's faster to level up your combat rank against players than NPC's isn't it? (iirc)

I don't think that's the case, besides the lower your opponent's rank compared to yours, the less progress you get for a kill. And vice versa. So it doesn't make any sense to shoot Harmless pilots in Sidey's.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Is that directed toward me? By C-log I meant the act of task killing the game client and/or pulling the Internet cable.

Ahhh, yeah that really is dirty. Those who do that definetly should get some tough warnings.

I'm saying nobody needs to combat log if they know what they are doing.

I'm also saying that the big 3 can be successfully fit for hybrid combat, allowing for limited PvP interactions.

Duh.

I thought that was obvious, but hey... what do I know.

I agree. My Python works fine both for PvE and PvP and I don't see why that wouldn't scale up into the big 3.

 

[Martian Successor]

Agreed. What about mindless ganking? Isn't that a game-wide problem too? (Albeit not a cheat per-se, more of an abuse).

::EDIT::

Just to clarify. I mean situations like wing of 4 experienced players in engineered Vettes/FDL's/whatever killing new players in Sidewinders in starter systems or the same wing of experienced players jumping and killing a defenceless (relatively) transporter ship in a trade CG (aka not pirating, just plain killing for no reason).

I for sure view it as a problem and one that can and should be addressed by a crime and consequences system and an additional karma mechanic. Right now the problem with serial player killing sprees is that the game in no way discourages that kind of action and it acts like the entire Galaxy is an anarchy system. In short the factions, the Powers and the Pilots Federation all don't give a hoot about rampaging murderers and Frontier needs to change that so we can all have a better game experience.

The good guys need to have meaning for their actions, the bad guys need to have meaning for their actions and the player killers killing for the sake of it need to be made to feel the weight of that decision, and thus discouraged from going on giant mindless killing sprees.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's not really mindless, it's faster to level up your combat rank against players than NPC's isn't it? (iirc)

No, it's mindless. As in it takes no reasoning to do any of it. Sure, excuses are trumped up after the decision is made (look guys, I be protecting Thargoids, which I didn't before or at any other time in my 'career' but I want to shoot CMDRs so I am now, I are roleplaying I are) but they are as flaky as a Thargoids willy.

 

[Oggy85]

I for sure view it as a problem and one that can and should be addressed by a crime and consequences system and an additional karma mechanic. Right now the problem with serial player killing sprees is that the game in no way discourages that kind of action and it acts like the entire Galaxy is an anarchy system. In short the factions, the Powers and the Pilots Federation all don't give a hoot about rampaging murderers and Frontier needs to change that so we can all have a better game experience.

The good guys need to have meaning for their actions, the bad guys need to have meaning for their actions and the player killers killing for the sake of it need to be made to feel the weight of that decision, and thus discouraged from going on giant mindless killing sprees.

I agree with what you said earlier about docking restrictions and that only anarchy and maybe independent stations should allow you to dock. Everywhere else you should not be welcome and frankly you should be shoot down on site....

IMO anyone who kills a player in Federation/Empire/Alliance space which isn't wanted (for any reason) should be awarded with 33333 Cr bounty in all 3, this bounty should be lifetime (30 days - not forever) and you should only get this pardoned after 30 days period. It should not be cleared if you self destruct or if you get destroyed by someone else (Player od NPC). It should be cleared only after 30 days. To prevent "wings" from farming bounties from a wanted friend, a player should be able to collect bounty ONLY ONCE (and since profit isn't great it is not suitable for grinding anyway.

Wanted players should also be actively hunted by NPC police in these systems and NPC should be granted with basic scan so that they open fire on you sooner rather than waiting for scan to be done.

Anarchy systems should be off limits to any sort of killing there should be permitted. If someone goes there in shield-less T9 he/she should be ganked by all means.

Not saying that karma system I'm suggesting is perfect but certainly it is an improvement of what we currently have.

And to C-L issues, I suggest your ship remains in game for 5 minutes after your are either interdicted or was fired upon and to allow player/npc to kill you. Then you would have two choice:

1. Combat log and go to rebuy screen (this should be reported if spoted)
2. Stay in game and try to run or fight

 

[Tadeus72]

I don't like PvP/PvE flags either and this is a valid complain. However, it's not my main issue with it.

The flags are just as much of an unnecessary and arbitrary divide as separate modes, and they further emphasize the separation between CMDR and NPC.

If anything, I'd simply go back to the idea of not having CMDRs and NPCs look any different on sensors.



Without organization, and with inferior vessels, PvE ships are just fodder, even in what should be overwhelming numbers, even against builds as silly as a Corvette with only 600MJ of shields...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tI5prDuvZw

It's like dropping a piranha in a bait bucket.

Well I'm not sure. Both the hollow symbol on sensors and the player indicator in contact history actually help me to avoid being ganked. Without it I would have to scan every contact everywhere to know if I should be more alert and know where the danger could come from. It would be easier for the hunters than for the prey cause they know where they can expect players and are most of the time already in waiting.

I think Fdev has it right with the C&P plans. We already have financial penalties. They will add some super cops to it. And I would also like to see standing penalties with local and global factions - cause this would make sense.

 

[rootsrat]

While I don't think wings killing noobwinders in starter systems is a good thing, I don't see why killing traders in a CG is a bad thing. Sure, it's not high level PvP. Sure it's basically easy mode. But if you take on the role of CG killer, it's all part of the game. I haven't been to a CG recently, but the typical scenario usually has one or more "bad guys" killing everyone, and a wing or two of "good guys" trying to stop them. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but the few times I've winged up to play bad guy, it generally results in repeated wing fights against the good guys.

To effectively play the bad guy at a CG, you've got to be the bad guy. That generally involves killing a few traders. Sure, you could pirate them and still be a wanted bad guy, but there isn't really any point in doing that (IMO). I've seen people do the pirate thing just to get on the board in a CG, but even that seems fairly pointless to me. It's good for pirate bragging rights, but some of us just don't care about that at all. Besides, nobody picks up the bat phone because of a few pirates. Sometimes it takes a few killings just to get any good guys to show up at all. They need to feel like they're accomplishing something, I guess. [smile]

OK, so killing traders in CG is not necessarily as bad as some other lowly forms of releasing your tension (near-station ramming, ganging up on harmless Sideys etc.). But still, like you said, that's a very low PVP style. I personally play mostly in Open and I accept the consequences of that. But because there are no serious consequences for the murderers can you really blame those of the traders that want to avoid consequences for themselves? I don't blame them for CL - if they are killed over and over again by the "PVP" (quotes intentional) players while they laugh in their faces... Really, I can understand. It's not to say this is right - CL is a cheat, no question about that. But I can certainly see WHY people do it.

I for sure view it as a problem and one that can and should be addressed by a crime and consequences system and an additional karma mechanic. Right now the problem with serial player killing sprees is that the game in no way discourages that kind of action and it acts like the entire Galaxy is an anarchy system. In short the factions, the Powers and the Pilots Federation all don't give a hoot about rampaging murderers and Frontier needs to change that so we can all have a better game experience.

The good guys need to have meaning for their actions, the bad guys need to have meaning for their actions and the player killers killing for the sake of it need to be made to feel the weight of that decision, and thus discouraged from going on giant mindless killing sprees.

Fully agree. But C&P has to be really punishing. 20 million Credits more for a rebuy means nothing if you have billions in your account. Trend catching means nothing if they will take months to set in stone. Pilots Federation bounty mens nothing if all it means is being wanted in more systems than usual. Serious crime needs SERIOUS consequences. Docking permissions revoked, Shinrarta Dezhra permit revoked. Insurance company refusing to give you your ship back when it's destroyed. The C&P systems needs to make that kind of players think twice, thrice or more times before they decide to gang up on an innocent player anywhere else than Anarchy systems.

System security rating is another completely meaningless thing. Does anyone feel safe in a High or Medium sec systems? I doubt it.

FDEV is making steps in the right direction, but the steps are small and I think until that's properly fixed, the combat logging will continue. Because this is the only real consequence the murderers face at this point - losing their victim right from under their noses. Again, I don't think it's right, CL is a cheat period. But it's happening for a reason and I really think you can't blame most of the CL's. The developers are to blame here really - and I say it being what you could call a fanboy of Elite and FDEV

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I don't seek out level playing fields in game any more than I do in real life and I think anyone who goes into a life or death situation without stacking the odds as far in their favor as possible is either suicidally insane or mentally disabled. Sure, I enjoy getting my butt kicked from time to time, but I don't go looking for butt kickings.

1) This is a game, not a life and death situation.

2) I actually do prefer a level playing field for PvP, and its why i don't like PvP in ED. I want to know if i win at PvP, its because i had the skill to win, not because i spent a month grinding CIF to get a few % extra on my dirty drives. And of course, the reverse also holds, if I lose, i want it to be due to skill, not because the other guy was grinding longer.

 

[Oggy85]

2) I actually do prefer a level playing field for PvP, and its why i don't like PvP in ED. I want to know if i win at PvP, its because i had the skill to win, not because i spent a month grinding CIF to get a few % extra on my dirty drives. And of course, the reverse also holds, if I lose, i want it to be due to skill, not because the other guy was grinding longer.

^^ This. Nicely said.

 

[Morbad]

1) This is a game, not a life and death situation.

Ah, but I'm after an immersive, high-verisimilitude experience. My CMDR doesn't know his reality is a game and he doesn't treat it like one.

See the statement of Braben's in my sig.

2) I actually do prefer a level playing field for PvP, and its why i don't like PvP in ED. I want to know if i win at PvP, its because i had the skill to win, not because i spent a month grinding CIF to get a few % extra on my dirty drives. And of course, the reverse also holds, if I lose, i want it to be due to skill, not because the other guy was grinding longer.

As long as victory is achieved via player who are playing by the rules, I don't really care about anything else.

I get as much satisfaction from surviving this...

Spoiler

...that's two SDC wings, consisting of three FAS, three Clippers, and an FDL...

...as I do from prevailing in a 'fair' fight.

The ways one can demonstrate skill are nigh infinite, and I'm not picky about them, either when it comes to myself, nor my enemies.

 

[M. Volgrand]

What the heck is going on with this game? I'm gone for a couple weeks and Maia is suddenly home to the combat logging / why are you interdicting me brigade!

This

is

MAIA!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...KWe-Hrle7shcaMtTpmaUgCL0BGAs/s200-d/giphy.gif

Record the event and report these commanders. Combat logging is against rules, period.
Sincerely: A commander that normally avoids PVP by outsmarting the PVPers

 

[ALGOMATIC]

I think you have stumbled upon the crux of the issue here. It's not the killing that really bothers most people (IMO). It's the rude behavior in comms that some people seem inclined to inflict on others. There is really no good reason to rub it in when you kill someone else's space pixels (unless the other person gets salty about it... then a response in-kind may be warranted).




C&P does not need to be crushingly oppressive to be effective. You're letting your personal feelings show here. It smells of outrage, frankly. Not that I blame you. I was griefed (who'd a thunk it) a few times myself in the earlier days of my ventures into the wider ED universe. It can get under your skin. I responded by engineering the crap out of my ships and building a nice bank account. I am literally un-griefable now. That's not to say I'm un-killable, but I can afford to die numerous times if I'm outmatched, and still not care. I can also mete out quite a lot of violence when I'm so-inclined (which is pretty much always ).

All you need for effective C&P is a solid NPC response in high security systems, and a somewhat lesser but still effective response in medium security systems. That's it.

Why we don't have that is anybody's guess. It really should happen though.

Of course the sidewinder exploit had to be fixed... but we're nearly there on that one.



Which is why the engineers need to be wiped off the map and redone. We have a perfectly reasonable option with the Thargoid war. They should destroy the engineer home worlds, with a few engineers surviving to rebuild. The travesty that is engineering could be redone in a completely believable and non game breaking fashion.

The reason cops are weak is because solo players need to be able to kill them when they are screwing up with someones bgs system while hiding in their rat holes.

Working as designed.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Which is why the engineers need to be wiped off the map and redone. We have a perfectly reasonable option with the Thargoid war. They should destroy the engineer home worlds, with a few engineers surviving to rebuild. The travesty that is engineering could be redone in a completely believable and non game breaking fashion.

FD have already decided the way they are going on that, and its not a complete rework. You'll still have to grind if you want those great rolls, but each roll should inch you closer to the ultimate god roll... eventually.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The reason cops are weak is because solo players need to be able to kill them when they are screwing up with someones bgs system while hiding in their rat holes.

Working as designed.

Yes, yes, that's clearly the reason....

Oh, i dropped this....

/s

 

[Agony_Aunt]

FDEV's idea of better may not line up with what the community at large thinks of as better.

Ah, the community. Always good to invoke, rarely can agree on any single point Passenger transfers anyone?

 

[Tadeus72]

A level playing field in an open sandbox game? Never experienced it in other games. If not for engineering, they would win by having a wing with voice comm coordination. And engineering really isn't much of a barrier now with all the guides. You can pimp out your ship for endgame in one month.

Which is pretty standard for online games.

 

[Starshoy]

I think you have stumbled upon the crux of the issue here. It's not the killing that really bothers most people (IMO). It's the rude behavior in comms that some people seem inclined to inflict on others.

With all respect to your reasoning, I think, your behavior is pretty rude itself. People you are complaining about are playing in open because they want cooperative play against aliens. You know - biggest event ever happening in this universe. They don't need your PvP.

I've recently started a second commander, and mostly play in open, simply because it is more interesting to see some other commanders from time to time. I cannot do it consistently though because of people like you. Not because I am afraid to lose a ship or money - because it breaks spirit of the game, which is to me a simulation of believable universe.

When in war zone against biggest threat to humanity I am likely to meet mostly serial killers in expensive ships doing it for pleasure, I simply can't believe this world, so I would avoid you any legal way I can. The best of which is turning on some device which which filters scumbags out, regretfully with many false positives.