Adding transducers to my VR cockpit.

[Wasp0]

Do you need to split the audio output when using the Rift then? My regular headphones for non VR gaming just plug into the jack in the front of my case, as does my Antlion modmic when I plug that in.

Well it sounds like I'll have to put one on my list then. Any idea if it works well with Aerofly FS 2?

I have 4 audio sources that i like to split to control individual volumes.

Elite
Voice Attack
Spotify....(For Spotify it can be any music source or streamer like VLC or any browser for youtube).
ButtKicker2

The only way i can do the FREE of charge and not get an external sound card/mixer, is with Voicemeeter. It is free, but i did donate £10 as it is a great program and i needed 2 virtual Cables to add to the Banana.

Recommend Voicemeeter Banana.

 

[wstephenson]

The Elusive LFE Channel

Folks, help me out here. I'm on day #2 of owning a Buttkicker. Elite, when presented with a 7.1 default sound device, outputs almost nothing on the LFE channel (4).

• I have learned to use Voicemeeter Banana.
  • The Voicemeeter virtual audio device is set up as 7.1 with no full range. Nothing changes when I use a 5.1 device here either.
  • I have my HDMI monitor audio with headphones on output #1
  • I have my buttkicker connected to a stereo USB DAC on output #2.
  • Output #2 is mapping LFE channel 4 to both front left and front right via the LFE Only option, or a custom Composite patch.
• Elite is configured to be Normal audio and no DTS:Headphone X processing. Boost doesn't help.
• I am looking at the channel level visualiser in Voicemeeter to see if there is anything on channel 4.
• The only time anything happens on channel 4 (LFE(Sub)) is a short bump on entering or leaving supercruise or hyperspace
• I am able to get the buttkicker to output a signal in other 5.1/7.1 games.

I can make the Buttkicker work by configuring everything as stereo and letting it filter out the high frequencies, but I prefer to get the dedicated LFE data that should be in the game. I can't believe all of you with AV receivers and 5.1 speakers and subs wouldn't have noticed if there was no sub output.

Short clip of Voicemeeter showing the visualisers and no channel 4 as I do stuff:

Spoiler

[video=youtube;bTadL8TjPIk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTadL8TjPIk[/video]

The freakiest thing is that when I play the OBS capture back locally, the LFE effects work as intended!
^ Turns out something in VLC was upmixing the stereo recording to 5.1.

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

I'll post my setup tomorrow. Sorry for not getting back earlier, but this thread totally went out of sight and mind.

 

[ziddan]

I would also be interested in seeing those settings as i just yesterday put two 30w shakers in the car seat i sit on while playing elite.

For now ive got my vive output mirrored and i think EQ'd to decrease all freqs over 100hz in voicemeter.

Ghetto setup as im driving the shakers with the electronics from the sub from an old 2.1 speaker system and im quite happy with the results so far

 

[wstephenson]

I'd be very happy if Voicemeeter users could check whether Elite, when presented with a 7.1 Voicemeeter virtual device as Windows default device, is outputting anything on channel 4*. Look at the channel visualiser in input strip #4, just right of the 'red dot' panning control.

*No jokes about not Channel 4 not being broadcast in your area until 1982, please

 

[Wasp0]

I'd be very happy if Voicemeeter users could check whether Elite, when presented with a 7.1 Voicemeeter virtual device as Windows default device, is outputting anything on channel 4*. Look at the channel visualiser in input strip #4, just right of the 'red dot' panning control.

*No jokes about not Channel 4 not being broadcast in your area until 1982, please

I am a user of Voicemeeter, but alas wstephenson, what you are asking is way above my head, sorry i can't help

 

[wstephenson]

I am a user of Voicemeeter, but alas wstephenson, what you are asking is way above my head, sorry i can't help

Ok, let me make the question simpler:

I've highlighted where to look on Voicemeeter in these two screenshots.

This is what no LFE activity looks like:

Spoiler

LFE activity (drop from supercruise)

Spoiler

The ONLY time I get anything on the buttkicker, via the indicated LFE channel 4 of the Voicemeeter device, is on entering or leaving frameshift.

If you are using Buttkicker+ Voicemeeter with a 7.1 virtual device and could have a look at this channel during normal gameplay and tell me if channel 4 is firing and on what kinds of events, it would let me know that it is not a general problem with ED and 7.1 setups.

The reason I'm asking you to look at the Voicemeeter UI rather than just telling me 'it works' is that people could be using a stereo device cloned to two outputs and letting the buttkicker amp isolate the LFE frequencies in hardware. Which is a valid way to do it, it's just got my goat why surround sound using discrete channels isn't working for me.

 

[Herbrand]

Folks, help me out here. I'm on day #2 of owning a Buttkicker. Elite, when presented with a 7.1 default sound device, outputs almost nothing on the LFE channel (4).

Hi, I had the same issue, to go around it I installed Equalizer APO, and configured it this way:

I set the audio to 7.1, then I copied over some channel to others like this:

Then I attached my subwoofer to the Sub output, where I get ALL the channels at the same time, and set the low-pass filter to 60Hz. Works well enough for me.

 

[wstephenson]

Hi, I had the same issue, to go around it I installed Equalizer APO, and configured it this way:

I set the audio to 7.1, then I copied over some channel to others like this:

https://i.imgur.com/cIA02JM.jpg

Then I attached my subwoofer to the Sub output, where I get ALL the channels at the same time, and set the low-pass filter to 60Hz. Works well enough for me.

That's very interesting. It implies that there is a <60Hz signal somewhere in the game, it's just not on the SUB channel to begin with. Your globbing all the channels onto SUB (then filtering off >60Hz) restores it to SUB.

I don't suppose I could prevail upon you to replicate my VM setup and verify that there is little to nothing being sent by ED on channel 4, when you have time?

 

[Globusdiablo]

Folks, help me out here. I'm on day #2 of owning a Buttkicker. Elite, when presented with a 7.1 default sound device, outputs almost nothing on the LFE channel (4).

• I have learned to use Voicemeeter Banana.
  • The Voicemeeter virtual audio device is set up as 7.1 with no full range. Nothing changes when I use a 5.1 device here either.
  • I have my HDMI monitor audio with headphones on output #1
  • I have my buttkicker connected to a stereo USB DAC on output #2.
  • Output #2 is mapping LFE channel 4 to both front left and front right via the LFE Only option, or a custom Composite patch.
• Elite is configured to be Normal audio and no DTS:Headphone X processing. Boost doesn't help.
• I am looking at the channel level visualiser in Voicemeeter to see if there is anything on channel 4.
• The only time anything happens on channel 4 (LFE(Sub)) is a short bump on entering or leaving supercruise or hyperspace
• I am able to get the buttkicker to output a signal in other 5.1/7.1 games.

I can make the Buttkicker work by configuring everything as stereo and letting it filter out the high frequencies, but I prefer to get the dedicated LFE data that should be in the game. I can't believe all of you with AV receivers and 5.1 speakers and subs wouldn't have noticed if there was no sub output.

Short clip of Voicemeeter showing the visualisers and no channel 4 as I do stuff:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTadL8TjPIk

The freakiest thing is that when I play the OBS capture back locally, the LFE effects work as intended!
^ Turns out something in VLC was upmixing the stereo recording to 5.1.

Very odd indeed.

I'm running all audio through a Denon surround receiver (hdmi) with 5 satellites, and a sub via LFE. Everything calibrated with an Auddysey microphone. Meaning the sub only gets audio from 100 hz and down to its drop off at 33 hz.
Now, playing stereo music and movies the sub is very noticable and present. It would sound terrible without it. But it doesn't do much while in E: D. Putting my hand on the woofer I could barely sense any movement before I cranked the audio way up while entering and exiting the hangar.

So here's the thing. I actually haven't noticed any lack of bass while playing E: D, so the question is; how much audio is there actually supposed to be in the game below 100 hz (in my case)?

On the matter of buttkicker; I have no experience with this, but I have a few thoughts:
Using LFE specifically for buttkicker, I would imagine that you're sending all bass hz to your butt, meaning you might miss out on audible bass (depending on crossover settings?)
I would imagine that taking an apparenlty subtle existing amount of information below 100 hz and turning it into a visceral feeling on your butt would require a very serious boost of the existing signal. In my case this could be done through the settings in my Denon. Boosting dB and hz. But that would ruin my music an movie listening, and as I don't really have an issue with the audio in E: D, that isn't going to happen.

So the question remains: Does E: D actually have any serious audio below, say 100 hz running through LFE?

I can't be bothered to find the source, but if I recall correctly E: D should support true digital surround 7.1 via hdmi. Optical or other would leave you with a virtual surround.

But this topic is a maze...

Good luck.

Edit: As others mention, you probably need to stop using LFE if you want a large signal to your butt...

 

[wstephenson]

Very odd indeed.

I'm running all audio through a Denon surround receiver (hdmi) with 5 satellites, and a sub via LFE. Everything calibrated with an Auddysey microphone. Meaning the sub only gets audio from 100 hz and down to its drop off at 33 hz.
Now, playing stereo music and movies the sub is very noticable and present. It would sound terrible without it. But it doesn't do much while in E: D. Putting my hand on the woofer I could barely sense any movement before I cranked the audio way up while entering and exiting the hangar.

So here's the thing. I actually haven't noticed any lack of bass while playing E: D, so the question is; how much audio is there actually supposed to be in the game below 100 hz (in my case)?

According to mflorianz' talk about E: D's audio a couple of years ago, they put specific low-frequency impulses into /the multicannon firing sfx/ just for buttkickers. I've been fascinated by the idea since seeing that, and got a Buttkickers as soon as noticing they were in stock locally and on sale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1317&v=GiAcsrmyePs

On the matter of buttkicker; I have no experience with this, but I have a few thoughts:
Using LFE specifically for buttkicker, I would imagine that you're sending all bass hz to your butt, meaning you might miss out on audible bass (depending on crossover settings?)
I would imagine that taking an apparenlty subtle existing amount of information below 100 hz and turning it into a visceral feeling on your butt would require a very serious boost of the existing signal. In my case this could be done through the settings in my Denon. Boosting dB and hz. But that would ruin my music an movie listening, and as I don't really have an issue with the audio in E: D, that isn't going to happen.

So the question remains: Does E: D actually have any serious audio below, say 100 hz running through LFE?

Anecdotally, others have said that they experience serious bass in game. If I take the 'simple route' of letting the game output in stereo, there's a lot more going on below my bottom than I see currently with 7.1.

The only effects that I do feel now (FSD enter/exit) are so strong that they cause the BK amp to clip.

I am ok with losing a bit of bass because I'm always going to be playing with headphones due to living in an apartment and having my and the neighbours' children (that's not how it sounds!) sleeping above, below and adjacent to the PC room. The BK is a way to put some back, responsibly. If I get it working, I could always split the LFE out to a subwoofer.

I can't be bothered to find the source, but if I recall correctly E: D should support true digital surround 7.1 via hdmi. Optical or other would leave you with a virtual surround.

But this topic is a maze...

Good luck.

Edit: As others mention, you probably need to stop using LFE if you want a large signal to your butt...

5.1/7.1 over HDMI to a receiver seems to be the gold standard. David Braben has said he plays in VR like that, with speakers, so that the ship audio is fixed relative to his chair. Jim Croft at FD also mentioned it. I'm going for a less expansive compromise, but the channel that matters is AWOL.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...Anecdotally, others have said that they experience serious bass in game. If I take the 'simple route' of letting the game output in stereo, there's a lot more going on below my bottom than I see currently with 7.1....

Be very wary when others state their experiences of anything. It's extremely subjective. When I play Elite: Dangerous I have all the bass I could ever want, and apparently my sub isn't even kicking in... But I'm hearing it through a dedicated surround amp, 5 speakers (and a sub apparently). I could add bass boost but that would just muddy the sound.

...I am ok with losing a bit of bass because I'm always going to be playing with headphones due to living in an apartment and having my and the neighbours' children (that's not how it sounds!) sleeping above, below and adjacent to the PC room...

But if you're looking for sweet stereo in your cans and an outrageous signal on your bum, it's a whole different can of worms.

Ok, I kicked the bees nest. If you're using headphones, then surround sound is not an option. No matter what the manufacturer writes on the side of the cans. Headphones means 2 speakers. One on each side of your noggin. Stereo if your lucky, mono is worst case scenario.

So what you get in headphones is a VIRTUAL surround mix in stereo. And this is the good part. If you're looking for sweet and visceral stereo sound and a signal for a buttkicker, then 7.1 and LFE is NOT for you. These are meant for surround sound systems.

So, as others have said, you should be looking for a mix signal where you get a nice stereo signal and and boosted signal with everything in it for the buttkicker.

LFE is not meant as a source signal for a buttkicker. It's meant for a subwoofer.

But again, I have no actual experience with the buttkicker, so I'll happily accept any corrections on the matter.

 

[Mot]

Now I want a Buttkicker too. I'm getting the bug this game has given so many people...

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

As promised, here are my VoiceMeeter settings:

As Globusdiablo said, i am using only regular stereo audio for my transducers and the Rift headphones. The output is done equally on both the on board audio, which feeds the Rift via USB and the soundcard, which is connected to the transducers.

I use VoiceMeeters equalizer to cut off any frequency above 90 hz, which works quite well. Additionally i boosted the decibel level up a bit, to get more beef into the bass.

The result is, that i only get transducer feedback from sounds like the ship engines, firing weapons, scoring and receiving hits, explosions, rumble from driving the SRV, impacts and the deepest effects from the music (like when Elite is starting up and gives this deep orchestral thingie - don´t know how to describe that in english, sorry).

And with this setting, i did not need to switch any Rift audio settings in the Oculus Home. The Rift microphone is selected as the main communications device in the Windows audio settings and does not need to be added to VoiceMeeter at all.

[edit] - please ignore the -3.1 decibel setting on the second hardware input. Its just an old setting i used for the microphone, before i noticed, that it wasn´t necessary at all.

I hope this helps.

 

[wstephenson]

Be very wary when others state their experiences of anything.

Yes, this is why I'm trying to collect empirical data from others using the VM channel visualiser between the game and their output device.

So, as others have said, you should be looking for a mix signal where you get a nice stereo signal and and boosted signal with everything in it for the buttkicker.

This is what I'm trying to achieve either by downmixing the 7.0 channels to stereo in Voicemeeter or by disabling centre, side and rear speakers in Windows settings and hoping that Elite splats them onto Front left and right and it comes out much like its headphone stereo mix, and then in both cases isolating the .1 to the BK.

LFE is not meant as a source signal for a buttkicker. It's meant for a subwoofer.

I'm inclined to disagree with that statement - on the one hand, you've ED's former audio designer on record saying that there are LFE elements in the mix specifically to drive buttkickers. On the other, the frequency ranges of BK's and subwoofers largely overlap: 5-200Hz vs 20-200Hz. The response will be different and the way it's presented will differ, but the same information will be there. I have to accep that with headphones and a BK there is always going to be a hole between tactile frequencies and low bass. Then when I get the LFE channel back, I can use BK+subwoofer together (when the family's out).

As promised, here are my VoiceMeeter settings:

As Globusdiablo said, i am using only regular stereo audio for my transducers and the Rift headphones. The output is done equally on both the on board audio, which feeds the Rift via USB and the soundcard, which is connected to the transducers.

I use VoiceMeeters equalizer to cut off any frequency above 90 hz, which works quite well. Additionally i boosted the decibel level up a bit, to get more beef into the bass.

Thank you, these work. They will provide a fallback if I can't get setup described above working via 7.1.

Now would either of you be interested in putting a simple Voicemeeter 7.1 virtual device onto Elite and seeing if there is much output on channel 4? (Use Save/Load settings to not mess up your existing setup). I'm trying to find out if it's a problem specific to my installation. All of you with 7.1 systems must be getting something on LFE or your subs would be inactive.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...I'm inclined to disagree with that statement - on the one hand, you've ED's former audio designer on record saying that there are LFE elements in the mix specifically to drive buttkickers. On the other, the frequency ranges of BK's and subwoofers largely overlap: 5-200Hz vs 20-200Hz. The response will be different and the way it's presented will differ, but the same information will be there. I have to accep that with headphones and a BK there is always going to be a hole between tactile frequencies and low bass. Then when I get the LFE channel back, I can use BK+subwoofer together (when the family's out)...

Sorry, I don't have any use for Voicemeter so won't be testing the feature for you. But I double checked on the LFE. As I said earlier, my sub is digitally calibrated via my Denon receiver to only receive audio below 100 hz and till its drop off at around 33 hz. I did some initial testing (holding my hand on the woofer to register any activity) and found no activity while entering and exiting the hangar. So no audio frequencies below 100 hz in that scenario. I also tried boosting outside the dock; no activity from the sub.

And then I tried the FSD. WHAM! Visceral kick in the pants! Plenty of activity from the sub.

So. There is an audio signal via LFE. But not much going on below 100 hz. Audio working as intended, but mix and boost needed for buttkicker to work properly (via LFE). You can't boost what isn't there. So you need a mix signal with more audio frequencies. Say up to 5.000 hz? I'm in the blind here.

Good luck Commander.

Edit: As I recall, LFE is only intended for the very lowest audio range. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it can output anything above 120 hz. So if you're looking to use the LFE out to relay frequencies above 120 hz up to say 5000 hz. Then you're out of luck. I'm not 100% on this, but I think this is how LFE works.

2. edit: Here you go:
https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

Also note that a sub out isn't the same as an LFE out.

 

[wstephenson]

Sorry, I don't have any use for Voicemeter so won't be testing the feature for you. But I double checked on the LFE. As I said earlier, my sub is digitally calibrated via my Denon receiver to only receive audio below 100 hz and till its drop off at around 33 hz. I did some initial testing (holding my hand on the woofer to register any activity) and found no activity while entering and exiting the hangar. So no audio frequencies below 100 hz in that scenario. I also tried boosting outside the dock; no activity from the sub.

And then I tried the FSD. WHAM! Visceral kick in the pants! Plenty of activity from the sub.

So. There is an audio signal via LFE. But not much going on below 100 hz. Audio working as intended, but mix and boost needed for buttkicker to work properly (via LFE). You can't boost what isn't there. So you need a mix signal with more audio frequencies. Say up to 5.000 hz? I'm in the blind here.

Thanks for testing, that matches my experience. That FSD kick is so strong that I can't boost the BK channel, or it clips and rattles.

I'll continue investigating.

 

[wstephenson]

This is what I've just added to my Support ticket:

Based on the observation that with a stereo default device and the sub or buttkicker connected to that, the sub activates appropriately throughout gameplay, I observe that the sub 200Hz frequencies they need are present in the game

Further, with a 7.1 audio device and downmixing all channels to stereo then passing those to the sub/buttkicker, the sub frequencies are present in surround sound mode. Just not on the LFE channel where you would expect them to be.

To test this, I took a 3 minute recording of 'Introduction to VR' scenario gameplay with a 7.1 virtual sound device set as windows' default device*, Full Range disabled, and DTS:Headphone X off, and recorded all 8 channels to a WAV file.

I then loaded the WAV into Audacity and displayed the bottom 500Hz of each channel in spectrum analyzer mode. A (large) screenshot:

Spoiler

The WAV file is available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/irwiv2k4lfoh5ng/elite_snd_test_master 2017-10-20 at 08h32m27s.wav

Note that the 4th channel, LFE, which in a normal surround sound configuration is the only input to a subwoofer or buttkicker, only has activity in 3 places, corresponding to hyperspace start, end, and supercruise drop due to interdiction.

The other channels, however, contain significant amounts of activity (dock lift, collisions, port airlock force fields, engines, weapon firing and hits, explosions) in the 0-200Hz band which would generate nice bass or sub-bass effects if they were going to the sub or a buttkicker.

* This excludes audio driver or misconfiguration issues; however, to exclude an artificial issue with the Voicemeeter virtual device, I observed the same behaviour with the Realtek soundcard I originally opened the ticket about, and a separate USB sound card.

I am now mindful of what GlobusDiablo said about subjective experiences and having all the bass he could ever want (from his presumably very capable surround speakers), and wondering what the difference would be if the bottom 100Hz of the surround channels were being mixed to his LFE channel. I've done this in post using Voicemeeter and the wub-wub-wub-wuuurp of a station forcefield or firing a large multicannon are lovely to behold (via my butt). While it's not necessary for my VR, Headphones + BK use case, I fear that if this the general situation, all the surround sound speaker users are missing out on the action.

 

[Globusdiablo]

This is what I've just added to my Support ticket:


I am now mindful of what GlobusDiablo said about subjective experiences and having all the bass he could ever want (from his presumably very capable surround speakers), and wondering what the difference would be if the bottom 100Hz of the surround channels were being mixed to his LFE channel. I've done this in post using Voicemeeter and the wub-wub-wub-wuuurp of a station forcefield or firing a large multicannon are lovely to behold (via my butt). While it's not necessary for my VR, Headphones + BK use case, I fear that if this the general situation, all the surround sound speaker users are missing out on the action.

Did you read the link to Dolby that I posted? The LFE out is NOT the same as a sub out. The LFE is working as intended in my opinion. If you want more frequencies to boost for a buttkicker, it has to be a mix/sub signal. LFE is a very specific output.
I don't think you can find anyone running a buttkicker via LFE out. No matter what some dev said. Did he actually play E: D with a buttkicker via LFE out, or was he stating that it was possible? Which it is, but not with the intended effect. Check the Dolby link, I found it very enlightening.

 

[Herbrand]

That's very interesting. It implies that there is a <60Hz signal somewhere in the game, it's just not on the SUB channel to begin with. Your globbing all the channels onto SUB (then filtering off >60Hz) restores it to SUB.

I don't suppose I could prevail upon you to replicate my VM setup and verify that there is little to nothing being sent by ED on channel 4, when you have time?

Don't think I'll have time, sorry.