Multi Crew : No Ships Available

Had to google that, it looks great.

It sure does, and whats more important, its FUN!

[video=youtube;fwYfqjrKdP0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYfqjrKdP0[/video]

[video=youtube;XMvBpf1ZeZE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMvBpf1ZeZE[/video]

[video=youtube;2bwIUebQT1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bwIUebQT1Y[/video]
 
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They would have to completely redesign fitting for that to work though.


Every ship in this game from the Condor to the Cutter is designed to be flown as a fighter. Letting a person man some random turret is not going to be meaningful because turrets are gimped weapons.

Of course you can, you need to design a gunner position that is interresting.
One gunner can shift between different turret, that is where it gets interresting as you need to get coop between pilot and gunner to position the ship.

[video=youtube;54RYNW_NyP8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54RYNW_NyP8[/video]
Huge different between these two types of gameplay.
[video=youtube;B9xDE0rcNQE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9xDE0rcNQE[/video]
 
For what it's worth, in Mobius PVE I make an effort to put Multicrew open when doing bounty hunting. Sometimes otherwise...but not much point 'cept to have a chat, is there?
 
To me the whole turret design is a big mistake, for gameplay reasons it should have been more like in IL2 sturmovik but it's not. The Arcady 360 view simply is a wrong design move if you ask me.

Connectivity and other issues aside, how the turret got implemented didn't seem as arcadey and cheap as it seemed to be at first glance. Now, that's not to say I think it's good design, because when it came out I recall some hastily constructed explanation of how it worked (a "camera drone"? righhht.) that indicated they didn't actually think it through like the whole telepresence thing. But a third person turret view actually makes a lot of sense for a gunner trying to aim from a platform that might be moving in three different directions at once.

Now, if you grew up in the past 40 years, this is what you wanted from being a spaceship gunner:

[video=youtube;fBagc1Ww0_Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBagc1Ww0_Y[/video]

But during that fight the Millennium Falcon didn't maneuver at all and flew straight and level while the Tie Fighters made strafing runs around it. Like the other dogfights in Star Wars, it was WWII style fighters vs a bomber. How hard would it have been able to aim, let alone see anything if the Falcon were jinking and dodging every which way? The turrets themselves would have been useless.

In those Sturmovik clips, the gunner is on a relatively stable platform. The plane isn't doing a lot of crazy maneuvering so the gunner can line up and take a shot. That's the only way it can work - if the pilot started jinking around, the tail gunner would have no chance of hitting anything as his view flipped all over everywhere.

So in a 34th century space ship you'd expect some kind of auto tracking turret capability especially with all the different weapons stuck out on hardpoints across the ship - no tunnel leading to a seat where you'd boresight down the actual weapon to line up the target. It would have to be aimed by remote camera or sensors.

And back to the boresighting, if you've got two turrets for example on opposite sides of the ship, which viewpoint do you use when aiming? Which barrel can you boresight from to get that WWII/Star Wars style feel?

I don't think you can, and even if you could, your chance of actually hitting anything as your pilot goes FA/OFF and spins the nose around to line up his targeting reticle. It would be an exercise in frustration. The gunner would be screaming at the pilot to hold still while you aimed.

And for situational awareness, you'd be looking at a 3D scanner that would spin and rotate all over the place just like the one we already have to try and keep track of the targets but again it's not under the gunner's control. Seeing everything, hostile ships, cops, cargo modules and materials would make it feel like you're targeting something in a tumble dryer.

So from a pure usability standpoint, a 3rd person perspective for the weapons officer would be the only way to make it work. You'd want a view that's stable, gives a clear view of the surroundings and has gives maximum visibility all the way around the ship that is totally independent of the ship's movement and orientation.

You don't even need a flimsy camera drone excuse for that. Call the gunner position's a simulation created by the ship's targeting system to provide maximum offensive and defensive capability. It's technologically feasible and more importantly desirable in a combat situation when trying to defend your ship. If pilots today had that capability (and it seems to be where it's moving toward) they'd be all over it.

But... it's nowhere near as cool looking or engaging as the old WWII style ball turret gunner, and since we're talking about a game flying make-believe spaceships fun should be the biggest factor. I think something FD could have done to avoid the situation, though, would have been to include a boresight option for the weapons, to give players who wanted that experience the "feeling" of being in the turret. After all, if a 3rd person gunner view can be simulated (again lose the "camera drone" - it's not necessary) a stabilized gunner view could work as well.

Of course, turret views and everything else aside, MC has to be able to work reliably to get people to use it, but that's a whole different animal.
 
Connectivity and other issues aside, how the turret got implemented didn't seem as arcadey and cheap as it seemed to be at first glance. Now, that's not to say I think it's good design, because when it came out I recall some hastily constructed explanation of how it worked (a "camera drone"? righhht.) that indicated they didn't actually think it through like the whole telepresence thing. But a third person turret view actually makes a lot of sense for a gunner trying to aim from a platform that might be moving in three different directions at once.

Now, if you grew up in the past 40 years, this is what you wanted from being a spaceship gunner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBagc1Ww0_Y

But during that fight the Millennium Falcon didn't maneuver at all and flew straight and level while the Tie Fighters made strafing runs around it. Like the other dogfights in Star Wars, it was WWII style fighters vs a bomber. How hard would it have been able to aim, let alone see anything if the Falcon were jinking and dodging every which way? The turrets themselves would have been useless.

In those Sturmovik clips, the gunner is on a relatively stable platform. The plane isn't doing a lot of crazy maneuvering so the gunner can line up and take a shot. That's the only way it can work - if the pilot started jinking around, the tail gunner would have no chance of hitting anything as his view flipped all over everywhere.

So in a 34th century space ship you'd expect some kind of auto tracking turret capability especially with all the different weapons stuck out on hardpoints across the ship - no tunnel leading to a seat where you'd boresight down the actual weapon to line up the target. It would have to be aimed by remote camera or sensors.

And back to the boresighting, if you've got two turrets for example on opposite sides of the ship, which viewpoint do you use when aiming? Which barrel can you boresight from to get that WWII/Star Wars style feel?

I don't think you can, and even if you could, your chance of actually hitting anything as your pilot goes FA/OFF and spins the nose around to line up his targeting reticle. It would be an exercise in frustration. The gunner would be screaming at the pilot to hold still while you aimed.

And for situational awareness, you'd be looking at a 3D scanner that would spin and rotate all over the place just like the one we already have to try and keep track of the targets but again it's not under the gunner's control. Seeing everything, hostile ships, cops, cargo modules and materials would make it feel like you're targeting something in a tumble dryer.

So from a pure usability standpoint, a 3rd person perspective for the weapons officer would be the only way to make it work. You'd want a view that's stable, gives a clear view of the surroundings and has gives maximum visibility all the way around the ship that is totally independent of the ship's movement and orientation.

You don't even need a flimsy camera drone excuse for that. Call the gunner position's a simulation created by the ship's targeting system to provide maximum offensive and defensive capability. It's technologically feasible and more importantly desirable in a combat situation when trying to defend your ship. If pilots today had that capability (and it seems to be where it's moving toward) they'd be all over it.

But... it's nowhere near as cool looking or engaging as the old WWII style ball turret gunner, and since we're talking about a game flying make-believe spaceships fun should be the biggest factor. I think something FD could have done to avoid the situation, though, would have been to include a boresight option for the weapons, to give players who wanted that experience the "feeling" of being in the turret. After all, if a 3rd person gunner view can be simulated (again lose the "camera drone" - it's not necessary) a stabilized gunner view could work as well.

Of course, turret views and everything else aside, MC has to be able to work reliably to get people to use it, but that's a whole different animal.

Of course you need to take the thinking cap on, but you could design a system that would take into consideration of all the issues you mentioned, and still get rid of that aweful 3d cam
 
There's many options for a better gunner experience. One could have been a "holo-seat" type of thing where the gunner appears centralized in the ship, and stabilized from the wild movement, but can see all around 360 degrees due to imaging sensors on the hull creating a full image. Maybe create a gunner module of some sort to add to the ship. This is even technically sound with today's distributed aperture sensors. During combat screens could temporarily shake or scramble, etc., when taking fire - to help add to the immersion. If you've seen the newer Titanfall game they do this in a way with the front screens when the player jumps in the Titan (but it's only forward facing).

For MC FDev did the quick & easy by basically cut'n'pasting the external cam with the ship GUI. Feature done? Check. That's the problem with this game now: it's getting minimal dev effort. Every feature in Horizon's, aside from the initial landings release, has been reuse of something else modified to appear as something new. :(
 
I want to gunner in Mc to get xbox achievement, but
1. Mc always crashes
2. No ships available
3. Turrets disabled for gunner role
So for me there is a rubbish bin marked
1. Mc
2. Cqc
3. Bgs
4. Holo me
5. Finding a planet coordinate
Rest is really Good though...
 
multicrew - the only valid thing in multicrew to do is: combat.
trading and mining is better be done in a wing, while

for multicrew combat you need either
1. Turrets or Missile launchers (low dps or ammo restricted weapons)
2. SLF bay

then
the combat rewards for the crew are limited to bounty income.
crew wont get any points for powerplay or contribute to comunitgoals or missions in general.

ontop of these there are the comon wing networking issue that are even bigger issues with multicrew.
eg. my friend wont last more then two hyperjumps as a gunner until he's stuck at a loading screen

last but not least,
there are the toxic elements called griefers. they come on board of your ship just to deplete your ammo or aggro random clean npcs.
or they just scout out where you are to call in their friends to present you a rebuy screen. (ofc with disbanding crew beforehand, or your rebuy would be lowered!)

did i mention that you need to be in open or in a group to even start multicrew? the instancing server is not set up dynamic enough to allow ad-hoc grouping or switching instance,
despite crew members beeing pushed back to the login screen at the end of a session anyway?

Makes me wonder what the DEVs think about this.
Makes me think of this song: "Who are the people in your neighborhood, in your neighborhood... in your NEIGHborHOOD?"

Open is one thing, winging with people you don't know, but I'd never let an anonymous person into my ship IRL or in the game. I certainly wouldn't let them man a turret.
 
Of course you can, you need to design a gunner position that is interresting.
One gunner can shift between different turret, that is where it gets interresting as you need to get coop between pilot and gunner to position the ship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54RYNW_NyP8
Huge different between these two types of gameplay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9xDE0rcNQE
A single turret on an aircraft in IL is powerful.

A single turret on a ship in Elite is pretty powerless.
 
Remember when 3 people in one ship was supposed to equal 3 people in 3 ships?

I remember when a fully crewed ship was supposed to be equal to a full wing. But y'know that was back when we were still expecting there to be 4 crew roles instead of 2+SLF.
 
A single turret on an aircraft in IL is powerful.

A single turret on a ship in Elite is pretty powerless.

It really helps to build a MC specific ship. Mine has 4 efficient beams that allow the gunner to basically fire all day, plus a fighter bay with 2 different fighters to choose from. That said, a FP turret would be a major improvement, even if it was difficult to use and required some coordination between pilot and gunner.
 
It really helps to build a MC specific ship. Mine has 4 efficient beams that allow the gunner to basically fire all day, plus a fighter bay with 2 different fighters to choose from. That said, a FP turret would be a major improvement, even if it was difficult to use and required some coordination between pilot and gunner.
But one turret is still not a big deal unless turrets themselves are changed and the entire fitting of ships changes to make a single turret a big deal.

Even if you waved The Magic Development Wand and made there a first person turret view in Elite who would want to have such a small effect on your ships performance?

The gameplay wouldn't be satisfying.
 
Of course, turret views and everything else aside, MC has to be able to work reliably to get people to use it, but that's a whole different animal.

The hardest part would just be acquiring a lock. Once that was done, it would be simply fire/pip control. Would def require some cooperation between cmdr and gunner, but would be much more fun, even if somewhat difficult to use.
 
IMHO Turret view makes only sense if the turret is mounted on a slow turning big ship.
not those huge fighters we have currently at hand.

so, until we get fleet squadron carrier, i see no point in first-person turret view
 
A single turret on an aircraft in IL is powerful.

A single turret on a ship in Elite is pretty powerless.

True, let me explain.

The turret on the SRV is on a gimbal, it works and it got a limited firing axis.

Make a gunner position where the gunner can shift between different turrets and use the SRV mechanics and you already got a better design for gameplay reasons.

IMHO Turret view makes only sense if the turret is mounted on a slow turning big ship.
not those huge fighters we have currently at hand.

so, until we get fleet squadron carrier, i see no point in first-person turret view

I respectfully disagree.
 
I have never experienced this and i have probably done over 100 hours of multicrew with random people by now.
That open is just full of toxic kids i think is a myth that has spread because it is a good recruitment pitch for Mobius and other private groups, and a straw man argument used by those who wanted offline mode.

Correct, it's the go-to line to try push more people into Mobius and it has to stop.

Open is not filled with toxic griefing kids, and those that were have left the game.
 
Correct, it's the go-to line to try push more people into Mobius and it has to stop.

Open is not filled with toxic griefing kids, and those that were have left the game.

After seeing someone get ganked at Felicity, I must disagree. How much tonnage have you hauled into a CG in open, and would you fly slowly or go AFK while flying non-PVP ships at a CG?

I think it's more that people don't work very hard hunting around the bubble looking for people to kill, they just go where they KNOW people will be: engineers, CGs, and grinding locations.
 
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