This community is 'different'

[iFred]

**** WARNING - MINI RANT ABOUT TO COMMENCE ****

A bit of background - I have been a gamer since gaming started on computers - played to exhaustion the original Elite. And if a game captures my attention, and there is a forum for it, I tend to get involved in it. Most game forums talk about the game, and you can get a lot of good information from them. They can also be fun, and at times biting.

But this forum is different. There seems to be a not so small minority that every thread, every post is an attack on the game. If FDev make an announcement I can just about list who will respond immediately attacking everything that is said, everything that wasn't said and everything that is inferred. If a player makes a thread these same people will hijack the tread to again voice their displeasure about the game. According to them, nothing works, everything is broken, all other space games are far superior and Frontier Development are either going broke, have shelved the game, or are conspiring with the devil. The strange thing is there is a lot of 'complaints' but very little constructive criticism and a dearth of suggestions to remediate these often perceived problems. I am beginning to wonder if some of these vocal opponents of the game still play it or in truth, every played it!

Are these people actively trying to push players away? Do they realise that new or even prospective players might read the forums before deciding to buy the game, see all the doom and gloom posts, the attacks on anyone who might disagree with them and decide not to buy or play the game? And god forbid if a player comes here to ask a question, the post is normally ignored, the player is ridiculed or told to 'git gud' and the post quickly disappears off the first page, never to be seen again - if it wasn't take over by someone's pet peeve of the month.

I am even hesitant to mention the quality of the complaints, never in the annals of history has there been so many top level, expert programmers playing a game - because they all think a major change to the code can be whipped out before finishing work for the day. Hey they can imagine it, so why can't FDev drop everything and program it right now.

Look, I am all for robust and entertaining discussions here in the forum, hell I encourage it. I use to love some of the epic war of words in the Battlefield 2 forums about which gun was better, are all medics stupid etc. And whilst there were complaints, not to the extent I see here. It seems whatever Frontier Development do, they do it wrong. If they advise the community that they will be working on existing features to fix bugs, they are attacked for not developing new content. If they advise they are bring new content out, the very same people will complain that the company should be fixing what is already there first.

I guess in the end, I just can't understand why these people are here. They evidently despise the game, loath the Company that makes it and will do everything in the power to rubbish the product. Honestly, if, as they keep on telling us, there are better games out there put out by better companies, please go and play those and leave us to enjoy this game without being told endlessly how bad it is.

**** END OF RANT - FLAME SUIT ON ****

And there are always people like you trying to tell others what they have to do.

 

[babelfisch]

Here's a good example of what I mean. Here's a thread saying how someone wasn't impressed with what was said to be coming in 2018.

Here are some snippets of the replies.


















I'll stop there at about 1/3 of the way thru the thread.

Now, just to be clear, the original OP did go as far as implying the devs were incompetent, so I can understand why people would take offense. I really do. I also do think that for a dev team that constantly releases known serious bugs which were reported in the betas into the live game, it might be fair to start questioning competence in some respects. But I do also think he went a bit too far. I agreed with most of his criticisms, but I wouldn't have gone so far as to call for people to be fired.

The point I'm trying to make is, please don't try to pretend that criticisms aren't ever shot down on these forums. Don't act like people aren't told to stop whining and go play something else. It happens ALL THE TIME. And it's not only when someone goes a little too far with the rudeness, like with the OP in this case. It happens with polite posts, stating their criticisms and constructive feedback as to how it could be better. ALL THE TIME.

Sorry, I don't get it. I am saying that people can criticise the game as long as they are constructive and don't insult anyone. They should still expect people to disagree with them, since we are all individuals and everyone has different expectations and ideas. And your best example is one of the rudest and most insulting threads we had in the past weeks, and even OP thought it would be a good idea to apologise after creating it. It absolutely proves my point.
+1 for the effort though

He even realised himself that he had to edit his post and removed certain parts.

 

[Enderby]

I've often found that people who express the most unwavering admiration of the game are the very ones that start making negative personal comments about those who express their dissatisfaction. Seen that happen loads of times yet it's always the "whiners" that get accused of 'ruining' the forum.

Pretty much the same as most game forums, I must add.

 

[babelfisch]

I've often found that people who express the most unwavering admiration of the game are the very ones that start making negative personal comments about those who express their dissatisfaction. Seen that happen loads of times yet it's always the "whiners" that get accused of 'ruining' the forum.

Pretty much the same as most game forums, I must add.

So you are trying to discredit the "fanboys" by saying they are bad people who make negative personal comments about others? Isn't that a negative personal comment about others? Also is this a negative personal comment about you? I don't know anymore...

 

[jasonbarron]

So you are trying to discredit the "fanboys" by saying they are bad people who make negative personal comments about others? Isn't that a negative person comment about others?

I spell it "fanboi"

 

[Enderby]

Pretty sure my comment wasn't a personal comment as I didn't mention anyone personally.

 

[babelfisch]

I spell it "fanboi"

Fanbuoi please.

 

[Riverside]

To be fair though, the point he's been trying to make is so perfectly obvious that it shouldn't require him to come up with a bunch of examples to prove.

I'm not sure that it always is obvious

By way of analogy let's compare this mud-slinging vs corroborating evidence to back up a statement with the AI difficulty in the game:

We all play in the same environment, so one players challenge is dull & predictable to another. You are really good at pew, and seek yet further challenge. I'm okay at pew, compounded by my relative lack of interest in a challenge (from the AI) any more. AI that you are comfortable with would probably not be enjoyable for me, AI that's okay for me would be pretty boring for you. There's no ideal answer, and a solution you found was to hang out with like-minded players, a solution I found was to off into the black & leave that part of the game that no longer interests me behind.

This forum has a no swearing policy, no naming & shaming, and is intended to be child friendly. Those straightforward rules are regularly pushed, and the mods step in. They are tolerant up to a point. But clearly this is boring for some, and too restricting for others so they leave for one reason or another.

I like this forum, I read far more than I write but I don't expect it to be for everyone.

 

[babelfisch]

Pretty sure my comment wasn't a personal comment as I didn't mention anyone personally.

So you actually talked about nobody which is fine, nobody is an idiot.

 

[Aashenfox]

I don't think it's fanboys, though there are fanboys, it's just a core of this community loves to belittle, and is a little more dismissive and cutting than many others. If you give them a valid excuse, such as posting a thread or opinion that they are absolutely sure will be shot down, they'll go right to town, like it's open season. The fact that they are core members and pat each other on the back about it, is why it perpetuates.

 

[Enderby]

Whatever you want babel

 

[Sylveria]

Someone once taught me a very valuable lesson in conflict resolution when it comes to communication, particularly in regard to communication where things like body language and inflection cannot be interpreted.

It helps to lead with a statement or declaration of intent. This way, it's very difficult to perceive what you're communicating any other way than the way it was intended.

This isn't "required", it's just helpful advice. Doesn't mean there won't be disagreement, only that it helps to clarify the context and meaning.

Now, another valuable lesson that most have learned early in life- is that what you do may affect other people. This is the reason why we have things like rules, laws and regulations. If you want to live an anarchistic life, more power to you- but whenever you have large groups of people concentrated in an area things like harmony become important, and we develop agreements with each other to help keep conflict to a minimum.

I like to treat others the way I'd like to be treated, but I also know sometimes you have to give bullies a bloody nose so they don't interpret your kindness as weakness.

Just a bit of food for thought.

 

[NecoMachina]

Sorry, I don't get it. I am saying that people can criticise the game as long as they are constructive and don't insult anyone. They should still expect people to disagree with them, since we are all individuals and everyone has different expectations and ideas. And your best example is one of the rudest and most insulting threads we had in the past weeks, and even OP thought it would be a good idea to apologise after creating it. It absolutely proves my point.
+1 for the effort though

He even realised himself that he had to edit his post and removed certain parts.

I honestly don't know what the OP was before he edited it. From what I could tell it involved asking for some of the devs to be fired, which I agree is crossing the line. Calling them out for incompetence, however, I do not think crosses the line. I know many would disagree with me here, and that's fine, but releasing KNOWN serious bugs to a live build in not professional IMO. I see absolutely no problem calling the devs onto the carpet for repeated instances of this kind of nonsense. I don't think it should be overly insulting. But I don't think that just because they are devs of a game we like we have to bow down to them like they can do no wrong either.

So yes, I think we are both in agreement that the OP went too far. MY problem, is that the condescending, dismissive posts that I gave examples of didn't address the issue of his rudeness. They dismissed his criticisms completely. And the light touch on the moderation means that it devolves into yet another "hater" vs. "white knight" mudslinging slog, and the criticisms get lost in the whole mess. And then 5 minutes later, when another thread brings up some criticisms in a polite, constructive way, we get "Oh here we go, yet ANOTHER whiner. People just need to stop complaining..." because everyone is wound up and sick of the bickering, name-calling, rudeness, and blanket dismissals. And you have people like me who like the game, see the potential, but are frustrated with the current state of it, who feel like they just want to give up on the whole thing because the forums are so aggravating.

 

[NecoMachina]

I've often found that people who express the most unwavering admiration of the game are the very ones that start making negative personal comments about those who express their dissatisfaction. Seen that happen loads of times yet it's always the "whiners" that get accused of 'ruining' the forum.

Pretty much the same as most game forums, I must add.

I agree. They are the ones most often making the personal insults and very condescending comments. Not saying it doesn't happen from the disgruntled folks too. But things like that make people defensive and it just starts arguments and flame wars, and turns it into "us vs them". It's all so tiresome and aggravating - for EVERYONE involved.

 

[NecoMachina]

I'm not sure that it always is obvious

By way of analogy let's compare this mud-slinging vs corroborating evidence to back up a statement with the AI difficulty in the game:

We all play in the same environment, so one players challenge is dull & predictable to another. You are really good at pew, and seek yet further challenge. I'm okay at pew, compounded by my relative lack of interest in a challenge (from the AI) any more. AI that you are comfortable with would probably not be enjoyable for me, AI that's okay for me would be pretty boring for you. There's no ideal answer, and a solution you found was to hang out with like-minded players, a solution I found was to off into the black & leave that part of the game that no longer interests me behind.

This forum has a no swearing policy, no naming & shaming, and is intended to be child friendly. Those straightforward rules are regularly pushed, and the mods step in. They are tolerant up to a point. But clearly this is boring for some, and too restricting for others so they leave for one reason or another.

I like this forum, I read far more than I write but I don't expect it to be for everyone.

The mods are usually great. But they occasionally are very condescending and dismissive too.

You mean that there are too many people here who treat everything they offer as if it is that right?

Two sides to every coin. I know the game isn't perfect, but I also know that whining about it won't change that.

Could we maybe have done without the "whining" part of this? Please?

I don't think it's fanboys, though there are fanboys, it's just a core of this community loves to belittle, and is a little more dismissive and cutting than many others. If you give them a valid excuse, such as posting a thread or opinion that they are absolutely sure will be shot down, they'll go right to town, like it's open season. The fact that they are core members and pat each other on the back about it, is why it perpetuates.

This.

 

[Chris Simon]

I don't think it's fanboys, though there are fanboys, it's just a core of this community loves to belittle, and is a little more dismissive and cutting than many others. If you give them a valid excuse, such as posting a thread or opinion that they are absolutely sure will be shot down, they'll go right to town, like it's open season. The fact that they are core members and pat each other on the back about it, is why it perpetuates.

I don't think this is the case as much as you think.
Firstly, the reason why some "core people" may sound dismissive is that they are discussing that particular topic for tenth time. This is why I think it's really tragic that the search function on this forum doesn't work properly. People come up with a problem or an idea and veteran users belittle them, yes, it's because this idea was chewed through by the forum several times, before, maybe even received an official dev statement. The point reached a conclusion and now someone's bringing it up again. And again. Think how you would react.

And secondly, the topics discussed here are very often presented very rudely and are sometimes downright offensive. In that case, the part of the community that has experience with the good side of Frontier (They are much more communicative than most developers, very friendly and in some sense very vulnerable, because they really love what they do) immediately switches to a "defense mode". I agree that in such cases the possibility of meaningful discussion is very limited, but it could be easily avoided if people making rant topics just took a breather and thought things through before posting.
You can notice that in most of these cases, people are attacking the rhetorics rather than the point itself. That points to a faulty way of presenting the point, rather than a faulty point.

 

[NecoMachina]

I don't think this is the case as much as you think.
Firstly, the reason why some "core people" may sound dismissive is that they are discussing that particular topic for tenth time. This is why I think it's really tragic that the search function on this forum doesn't work properly. People come up with a problem or an idea and veteran users belittle them, yes, it's because this idea was chewed through by the forum several times, before, maybe even received an official dev statement.
And secondly, the topics discussed here are very often presented very rudely and are sometimes downright offensive. In that case, the part of the community that has experience with the good side of Frontier (They are much more communicative than most developers, very friendly and in some sense very vulnerable, because they really love what they do) immediately switches to a "defense mode". I agree that in such cases the possibility of meaningful discussion is very limited, but it could be easily avoided if people making rant topics just took a breather and thought things through before posting.
You can notice that in most of these cases, people are attacking the rhetorics rather than the point itself. That points to a faulty way of presenting the point, rather than a faulty point.

And why do you feel the need to step into the 10th topic discussing the same thing? Can you not just decide you are tired of talking about that particular topic and let it pass without stepping in and telling people they need to shut up already because you're tired of hearing it? Do you not think that the defense mechanism thing works both ways? Do you not think that the forum posters are also very passionate about what they think the game could be and thus are also somewhat vulnerable when their opinions are dismissed as "stupid" or "whining"? It works both ways. and IMO BOTH sides need to chill out, and the mods need to be allowed to stop the personal attacks and keep the discussion focused on the the game.

 

[Chris Simon]

And why do you feel the need to step into the 10th topic discussing the same thing? Can you not just decide you are tired of talking about that particular topic and let it pass without stepping in and telling people they need to shut up already because you're tired of hearing it?

What if I just feel the need to tell the OP that they're beating a dead horse? If you were vigorously discussing something that was already decided and is a closed case, wouldn't you want to know? To save the time, at least?

and IMO BOTH sides need to chill out, and the mods need to be allowed to stop the personal attacks and keep the discussion focused on the the game.

I think mods are doing that just fine.
It's more a case of some people mistaking a different opinion for a personal attack. And the fact that veteran players consider their opinions more justified is just natural, I think. Not always right, of course, but natural.

 

[NecoMachina]

What if I just feel the need to tell the OP that they're beating a dead horse? If you were vigorously discussing something that was already decided and is a closed case, wouldn't you want to know? To save the time, at least?

Who's decided what horses are dead and what cases are closed? You? It's certainly not the devs, as they have been pretty quiet about specifics. If you're talking about things like "we should get rid of open" or "we should get rid of private groups", then ok sure. Fair point. That has been stated by devs will not be happening I'm pretty sure. If you're talking about space legs, player guilds, or something like that, then who's to say "that case is closed"? I feel like some people think they get to decide what the "closed cases" are, and feel they have a right to "inform everyone of how things are around here". Quite frankly, I get really irritated by that kind of thing.

I think mods are doing that just fine.
It's more a case of some people mistaking a different opinion for a personal attack. And the fact that veteran players consider their opinions more justified is just natural, I think. Not always right, of course, but natural.

Accusing people of whining is a personal attack. And no, just because you think you are "veteran" does not make you better, more entitled, or anything like that. And just for the record, I've been around since day one as well. Hell, I've been around since the 1984 Elite. Don't think you are special. But I don't care how long anyone has been around. If a guy wanders into the forum on his very first day and drops a suggestion or opinion, it's just as valid as your or mine. As long as he's not coming in demanding a complete change in course, I think it's fine.

 

[Chris Simon]

Accusing people of whining is a personal attack. And no, just because you think you are "veteran" does not make you better, more entitled, or anything like that. And just for the record, I've been around since day one as well. Hell, I've been around since the 1984 Elite. Don't think you are special.

Okay, last thing before I call it quits - I am NOT a veteran nor do I feel like one. I wasn't here from the day one (not on the forums, anyway. I've also played previous Elite games) and I'm not accusing anybody of anything. But I do think that devs decide what is a dead horse. And I will point it out when I'm sure of that.